Priesthood of All Beleivers

[Zakuska]

Is the Priesthood of all beleivers biblical?

Most Protestants today recognize only one mediator between them and God the Father, and that is God the Son, Jesus Christ (1 Timothy 2:5). The Epistle to the Hebrews calls Jesus the supreme "high priest," who offered himself as a perfect sacrifice (Hebrews 7:23-28). Protestants believe that through Christ they have been given direct access to God, just like a priest; thus the doctrine is called the priesthood of all believers. God is equally accessible to all the faithful, and every Christian has equal potential to minister for God. This doctrine stands in opposition to the concept of a spiritual aristocracy or hierarchy within Christianity.

The following verses sure seem to argue against the notion.

Acts 8

12 But when they believed Philip preaching the things concerning the kingdom of God, and the name of Jesus Christ, they were baptized, both men and women.

13 Then Simon himself believed also: and when he was baptized, he continued with Philip, and wondered, beholding the miracles and signs which were done.

14 Now when the apostles which were at Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent unto them Peter and John:

15 Who, when they were come down, prayed for them, that they might receive the Holy Ghost:

16 (For as yet he was fallen upon none of them: only they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.)

17 Then laid they their hands on them, and they received the Holy Ghost.

18 And when Simon saw that through laying on of the apostles

[Hick Preacher]

Is the Priesthood of all beleivers biblical?

The following verses sure seem to argue against the notion.

Acts 8

12 But when they believed Philip preaching the things concerning the kingdom of God, and the name of Jesus Christ, they were baptized, both men and women.

13 Then Simon himself believed also: and when he was baptized, he continued with Philip, and wondered, beholding the miracles and signs which were done.

14 Now when the apostles which were at Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent unto them Peter and John:

15 Who, when they were come down, prayed for them, that they might receive the Holy Ghost:

16 (For as yet he was fallen upon none of them: only they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.)

17 Then laid they their hands on them, and they received the Holy Ghost.

18 And when Simon saw that through laying on of the apostles

[Zakuska]

A few notes...

The Apostles were sent with authority by Jesus- He did it personally. He commissioned them personally by Jesus breathing on them, saying 'receive the Holy Ghost'(John 20:21) Note in the earlier passage that Jesus says that that was the way that His Father sent Him. Jesus claimed that He did nothing except what He saw His Father do. So just as the Father sent Him, He sent His Apostles.

And here I thought God the father was unable to be "seen" by anyone. Which includes Jesus?!

There are several different roots to the various kinds of authority in the Churches of Christianity.

There is Charismatic Authority

Traditional/Natural Social or Family authority-- and Trial Authority.

There is Legal Authority

Some authority comes because God commanded Adam to form culture in Genesis- giving him dominion over the Earth. Adam also had a certain kind of authority over Eve, and his offspring. Likewise Fathers have authority in a Family Unit.

Legal Authority is a kind of cultural authority too. People are set apart in different cultures to serve certain roles of legal authority-- and they even wear special clothes or badges as an outward sign of authority. And often have a public swearing in rite that comes with that authority. This kind of authority is also commissioned of God- ultimately.

Charismatic Authority is the power that comes by having the indwelling of the Holy Ghost.

It is often combined with Legal and/or Tribal authority in order for the orderly running of Church organisations.

And this all goes against Cornelius especially the Charismatic. Because... for him to "Bleleive" he had to have been indwelt so for the idea to be true... he should have just as much authority to "breath" on others as the Aposltes had.

[Vance]

The Apostles were sent with authority by Jesus- He did it personally. He commissioned them personally by Jesus breathing on them, saying 'receive the Holy Ghost'(John 20:21) Note in the earlier passage that Jesus says that that was the way that His Father sent Him.

I disagree that this is where Jesus authorized the apostles.

John 15:16 Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you.

Notice the past tense.

[Vance]

From the wiki article;

It is a foundational concept of Protestantism.[5] While Martin Luther did not use the exact phrase "priesthood of all believers," he adduces a general priesthood in Christendom in his 1520 To the Christian Nobility of the German Nation in order to dismiss the medieval view that Christians in the present life were to be divided into two classes: "spiritual" and "temporal." He put forward the doctrine that all baptized Christians are "priests" and "spiritual" in the sight of God:

It was fabricated by Martin Luther. It is nowhere found prior to him.

[Hick Preacher]

A few notes...

And here I thought God the father was unable to be "seen" by anyone. Which includes Jesus?!

And this all goes against Cornelius especially the Charismatic. Because... for him to "Bleleive" he had to have been indwelt so for the idea to be true... he should have just as much authority to "breath" on others as the Aposltes had.

John 6:46 Not that any man hath seen the Father, save he which is of God, he hath seen the Father.

The Holy Ghost has different offices, and gives different offices to different individuals.

Eph 2:20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;

Eph 3:5 Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit

Eph 4: 8 Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men.

9 (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth?

10 He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)

11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;

12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:

[Hick Preacher]

I disagree that this is where Jesus authorized the apostles.

John 15:16 Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you.

Notice the past tense.

The Promise of the Holy Ghost came just before John 15 in the previous chapter. This promise included the ability to do great works of God, and do things like Jesus did.

Then in Chapter 15 he fore ordains them indeed, but this ordination has not been fulfilled with full empowerment.

Again, He sent them just as He was sent. And he gave them a specific charge in John 20, which included powers and authorities from the Holy Ghost.

Then later at Pentacost another set of powers and authority is given.

The Holy Ghost is a person, who holds many offices and has several kinds of missions and many kinds of gifts and abilities that He can impart to people.

[Zakuska]

John 6:46 Not that any man hath seen the Father, save he which is of God, he hath seen the Father.

Amen. I hear you and know the verse by heart. Of course this causes problems for fundamentalist Christians who insist that the father is by very nature "invisible" and un-see-able period.

The Holy Ghost has different offices, and gives different offices to different individuals.

Quote

Eph 2:20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;

Eph 3:5 Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit

Quote

Eph 4: 8 Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men.

9 (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth?

10 He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)

11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;

12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:

Im not sure how any of these leads to your conclusion. Yes there are varying offices in the church but I fail to see how your out of context Eph 3:5 ties into this.

It says that the the spirit revealed things to the Apostles and Prophets. But the spirit reveals things to the darkest, vialest sinner as well.

[BookofMormonLuvr]

I believe the authority to administer the ordinances of the Gospel resides in more then one church, BUT only those churches that have Priesthood through the lineage restored by John the Baptist to Oliver and Joseph. So I am in some middle ground between the Protestant "Priesthood of All Believers" and LDS (et al) "Only WE have any ministerial authority."

[3DOP]

The essense of all priestly activity according to the Catholic faith, is to offer sacrifice. That is why her priests are ordinarily enjoined to offer the sacrifice of being celibate. Whatever non-Catholics might think about it, we who are Catholic know that the Church teaches that marriage is a great good, a source of grace, and one of seven Sacraments. Good sacrifices involved the deprivation unblemished animals in the Old Testament, and the deprivation of lifestyles or actions that are good in the New Testament.

That a priest offers up good things to sacrfice as the first principle leads directly to belief in the priesthood of all believers. It seems difficult to understand 2 Peter to speaking exclusively to the hierarchical priesthood in chapter two:

Be you also as living stones built up, a spiritual house, a holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ.

---I Peter 2:5

Note the connection between priesthood and sacrifice. In addition to the spiritual sacrifices of 2 Peter we also have bodily sacrfices in Rom. 12:

I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercy of God, that you present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, pleasing unto God, your reasonable service.

---v. 2

The responsibility of every Christian to live a priestly life is of Apostolic origin. It was not Luther's novelty to emphasize this truth. The novelty was that he insisted that this was the only priestly order. The hierarchical priesthood offers a similar, but more perfect sacrfice. But the principle applies to all believers.

[Hick Preacher]

Zakuska

Amen. I hear you and know the verse by heart. Of course this causes problems for fundamentalist Christians who insist that the father is by very nature "invisible" and un-see-able period

.

Im not sure how any of these leads to your conclusion. Yes there are varying offices in the church but I fail to see how your out of context Eph 3:5 ties into this.

The most basic notion of a Priest is one who is a go-between man and God. The Holy Ghost serves as such a go-between, or even a very direct link between humans and the God.

So the Holy Ghost is a kind of priest that uses His Spirit to minister.

So the Priesthood and the Spirit are similar ideas.

It says that the the spirit revealed things to the Apostles and Prophets. But the spirit reveals things to the darkest, vialest sinner as well.

I have asked this recently on another thread. Does the Holy Ghost Hold the Priesthood?

So those who are indwelt with this Priesthood holder are very close to having 'the Priesthood'.

[cdowis]

The most basic notion of a Priest is one who is a go-between man and God.

That is not a doctrine of the LDS church. Please remember that this is an LDS forum, not Catholic.

The Holy Ghost serves as such a go-between, or even a very direct link between humans and the God.

That is a doctrine of the LDS church. Please see my notes on the Cornelius thread.

So the Holy Ghost is a kind of priest that uses His Spirit to minister.

Your logic is flawed. This is Protestant-speak, and not found in the scriptures.

So the Priesthood and the Spirit are similar ideas.

So, therefore, in conclusion. May I suggest that you take a basic class in logic.

I have asked this recently on another thread. Does the Holy Ghost Hold the Priesthood?

So those who are indwelt with this Priesthood holder are very close to having 'the Priesthood'.

And you received an answer. We do not know, and the ministry of the HG has nothing to do with the priesthood. Rmemeber when Christ gave the keys to Peter? This was directly from Christ and not the Holy Ghost.

[Zakuska]

This is where Hicks argument loses steam.

Both the Apostles and Simon were "indwelt" by the Holy Ghost. Yet the Apostles were able to give the Holy Ghost and act in an offical capacity while Simon was not. So apparently... Having the Holy Ghost has nothing what so ever to do with Priesthood Authority.

[Hick Preacher]

cdowis notes-

...and the ministry of the HG has nothing to do with the priesthood. Rmemeber when Christ gave the keys to Peter? This was directly from Christ and not the Holy Ghost.

I think you are failing to see the association between inspiration and authority.

Matt 16:

5 He saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am?

16 And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.

17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.

18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

19 And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.

Peter being given the "Keys" is associated with the Holy Ghost revealing to him that Jesus was the Christ.

Jesus was sent by the Father by the Spirit, and likewise sent the Apostles out by the Spirit of Christ.

John 20:

21 Then said Jesus to them again, Peace be unto you: as my Father hath sent me, even so send I you.

22 And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost:

23 Whose soever sins ye remit, they are remitted unto them; and whose soever sins ye retain, they are retained.

He gave them authority to remit sins in the above passage- this authority is associated with the Holy Ghost.

Like wise in John 14 Jesus associated His Good works with the Spirit of His Father that dwelt in Him. Immediately afterward, He told his Apostles that they too can do such works, and promised them the comforter, the Holy Ghost. This associates the works of God done by Jesus and the authority to do those works with the Spirit.

Also Note the association between the Holy Ghost and Authority as an overseer in the Acts of the Apostles. Acts 20:

28 Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.

It does not seem that there is any actual man to man succession directly called "Priesthood'

documented in the New Testament. The the closest thing to an explained mechanism for communication of Authority in the New Testament is the Holy Ghost. On top of this these Apostles went out preaching without any word of getting the LDS-like authority to do so. Where a Priesthood in the New Testament that has the specific attributes of the LDS Priesthood?

[Zakuska]

cdowis notes-

I think you are failing to see the association between inspiration and authority.

Matt 16:

Peter being given the "Keys" is associated with the Holy Ghost revealing to him that Jesus was the Christ.

Jesus was sent by the Father by the Spirit, and likewise sent the Apostles out by the Spirit of Christ.

John 20:

He gave them authority to remit sins in the above passage- this authority is associated with the Holy Ghost.

Like wise in John 14 Jesus associated His Good works with the Spirit of His Father that dwelt in Him. Immediately afterward, He told his Apostles that they too can do such works, and promised them the comforter, the Holy Ghost. This associates the works of God done by Jesus and the authority to do those works with the Spirit.

Also Note the association between the Holy Ghost and Authority as an overseer in the Acts of the Apostles. Acts 20:

It does not seem that there is any actual man to man succession directly called "Priesthood'

documented in the New Testament. The the closest thing to an explained mechanism for communication of Authority in the New Testament is the Holy Ghost. On top of this these Apostles went out preaching without any word of getting the LDS-like authority to do so. Where a Priesthood in the New Testament that has the specific attributes of the LDS Priesthood?

I find it intresting that you miss the fact that we see James on two seperate occasiions, sitting as the Earthly head of the church and final arbiture and Judge on questions of a spirutual Nature and "Christian" conduct and church governance....

Acts 15

6

[Hick Preacher]

I find it intresting that you miss the fact that we see James on two seperate occasiions, sitting as the Earthly head of the church and final arbiture and Judge on questions of a spirutual Nature and "Christian" conduct and church governance....

Acts 15

6

[Zakuska]

The Holy Ghost is a person and not just a force or a light. He (the Holy Ghost), can call, chose and set apart people in an orderly manner to do God

[Hick Preacher]

Thats some pretty creative literary gymnastics you are doing there Hick. Especially since the Holy Ghost specifically led Peter to Paul for the express purpose of taking the Gospel to the Gentiles. What with his "table Cloth dream and all."

The council was to show those who were in an uproar over Pauls teaching the Gentiles (at James' and Peter's directions being commanded by God) and telling them that there were certian parts of the Mosaic Law that the Gentiles need not worry about, that the Holy Ghost was actually guiding and directing the earthy work they were doing.

The Lord even Instructed Paul to go seek someone with "authority" so he could begin doing his work.

Acts 9: 6

6 And he trembling and astonished said, Lord, what wilt thou have me to do? And the Lord said unto him, Arise, and go into the city, and it shall be told thee what thou must do.

Again showing that just "having the holy ghost" is not enough.

And yet God in Acts 9:6 above pushed Paul underneith Peter and James. Your "human protocol" explanation has been weighed in the balances and found wanting Hick.

Zakuska

In order to be successful in any public ministry, social and cultural authority is also critical. There is more than just one kind of authority at work in this ancient setting.

These other kinds of authority are also sanctioned from God and are part of the human condition in which the Gospel was sent forth.

I do not see weight to any argument that the original Apostles or Paul of the first Churches founded had the kind of Authority system as seen as exclusive in the LDS system- or the Catholic system. Nowhere in the New Testament do we see LDS-Like Priesthood chain of command protocols at work. Instead what we see are different kinds of authority with different roots in an interplay. Such roots include Legal authority, the authority of Jewish cultural protocols, Foundership authority, Educational, or Knowledge Expert authority, Worthiness that brings authority, Tribal/Family/Clan authority, Charismatic authority and on and on.

This all points to the concept of a system consistent to the notion of a priesthood of all believers.

When we study the case history the Apostle

[cdowis]

I do not see weight to any argument that the original Apostles or Paul of the first Churches founded had the kind of Authority system as seen as exclusive in the LDS system- or the Catholic system. Nowhere in the New Testament do we see LDS-Like Priesthood chain of command protocols at work. Instead what we see are different kinds of authority with different roots in an interplay. Such roots include Legal authority, the authority of Jewish cultural protocols, Foundership authority, Educational, or Knowledge Expert authority, Worthiness that brings authority, Tribal/Family/Clan authority, Charismatic authority and on and on.

This all points to the concept of a system consistent to the notion of a priesthood of all believers.

What you have seen in the Bible has lead you to a mistaken conclusion. In the LDS church, you will find exactly the same "different kinds of authority" as you have mentioned. You find Relief Society president, scout masters, etc which are callings without a priesthood requirement, you find prayers for the Holy Ghost among people who already have the Gift of the Holy Ghost, missionaries find people who have been inspired by the Holy Ghost but do not have the priesthood authority until after baptism.

You are misinterpreting the Bible text to fit your theology, and you are ignoring the fact that those very same events occur in a priesthood oriented organization, the LDS church.

[Hick Preacher]

What you have seen in the Bible has lead you to a mistaken conclusion. In the LDS church, you will find exactly the same "different kinds of authority" as you have mentioned. You find Relief Society president, scout masters, etc which are callings without a priesthood requirement, you find prayers for the Holy Ghost among people who already have the Gift of the Holy Ghost, missionaries find people who have been inspired by the Holy Ghost but do not have the priesthood authority until after baptism.

You are misinterpreting the Bible text to fit your theology, and you are ignoring the fact that those very same events occur in a priesthood oriented organization, the LDS church.

I have no doubt that the same pattern of events appear in the LDS Church.

The LDS Church has its system of Priesthood so that it can manage a highly structured organisation that has a tall multiple tiered vertical organisational profile. This being said, having such a system is NOT the only way to run a Church where leaders have authority and are inspired of God.

[ELF1024]

The Aposltes apparently had something that he did not. According to the priesthood of all beleivers this is false, because for the mere fact that he "beleived" he should have just as much Authority as the Apostles did.

I would agree that the idea of a "Priesthood of all Believers" is a falsehood. However, without the idea of the "Priesthood of all Believers" there aren't many Churches that could remain. How could anyone claim to have recieved the power to heal or to cast out evil spirits if there wasn't a "Priesthood of all Believers".

I think that the idea of "Priesthood of all Believers" was invented to overcome the lack of understanding by men. It was created for the benefit of men who wished to have a church, but knowing they had no authority delegated by Christ to perform in his name.

However, if you consider then "people acting without authority" are merely "praying to God for something to happen"; then it is within the possibilities that God has acted in their favor by answering their prayers on occasion. That doesn't mean that they had authority, just that the Lord answers prayer.

[Zakuska]

I have no doubt that the same pattern of events appear in the LDS Church.

The LDS Church has its system of Priesthood so that it can manage a highly structured organisation that has a tall multiple tiered vertical organisational profile. This being said, having such a system is NOT the only way to run a Church where leaders have authority and are inspired of God.

The scriptuires don't bare out what you say hick.

Acts 18

24

[Hick Preacher]

I would agree that the idea of a "Priesthood of all Believers" is a falsehood. However, without the idea of the "Priesthood of all Believers" there aren't many Churches that could remain. How could anyone claim to have recieved the power to heal or to cast out evil spirits if there wasn't a "Priesthood of all Believers".

I think that the idea of "Priesthood of all Believers" was invented to overcome the lack of understanding by men. It was created for the benefit of men who wished to have a church, but knowing they had no authority delegated by Christ to perform in his name.

However, if you consider then "people acting without authority" are merely "praying to God for something to happen"; then it is within the possibilities that God has acted in their favor by answering their prayers on occasion. That doesn't mean that they had authority, just that the Lord answers prayer.

There are those who can also say that the LDS Priesthood was invented, because no priesthood that is LDS-like is revealed in the New Testament. The organisation of Mormonism is not explicitly in the New Testament.

[Hick Preacher]

The scriptuires don't bare out what you say hick.

Acts 18

24

[ELF1024]

There are those who can also say that the LDS Priesthood was invented, because no priesthood that is LDS-like is revealed in the New Testament. The organisation of Mormonism is not explicitly in the New Testament.

One or both may be completely made up. It's hard to prove when their isn't sufficient documentation.