Lost Tribes: Has Church Modified Its Position?

[paulpatter]

The underlying assumption to the question hinges on change being evidence of current falsehood. Section one of the D&C dispells such a fundamentalist worry:

When change does take place, or is thought to take place, I think it's helpful for members to understand the reason for the change, the better to embrace it/support it. When I posed the question in my OP, in no way was I endeavoring to provide evidence of error or falsehood. I was simply seeking more light and knowledge. If I have misunderstood you, forgive me.

: In other words, things ain't perfect. When we goof, we should still be moving closer to the truth. That's the goal, anyway.

Agreed.

[Connolly]

Canonized official church doctrine on the subject.

It's been so for as long as the church has existed. Its also quite plain on the subject.

[Zakuska]

Canonized official church doctrine on the subject.

It's been so for as long as the church has existed. Its also quite plain on the subject.

Any good commentaries on verse 25 through the end?

Who was the last tree/branch that brought forth good and bad? The Nephites/Lamanites ? or perhaps it was the church in our day?

[Cold Steel]

I've never understood McConkie's take on the ten lost tribes. Although it's been oft-quoted, it bears repeating:

And they who are in the north countries shall come in remembrance before the Lord; and their prophets shall hear his voice, and shall no longer stay themselves; and they shall smite the rocks, and the ice shall flow down at their presence. And an highway shall be cast up in the midst of the great deep. Their enemies shall become a prey unto them, and in the barren deserts there shall come forth pools of living water; and the parched ground shall no longer be a thirsty land. And they shall bring forth their rich treasures unto the children of Ephraim, my servants. And the boundaries of the everlasting hills shall tremble at their presence. And there shall they fall down and be crowned with glory, even in Zion, by the hands of the servants of the Lord, even the children of Ephraim. And they shall be filled with songs of everlasting joy. Behold, this is the blessing of the everlasting God upon the tribes of Israel, and the richer blessing upon the head of Ephraim and his fellows. And they also of the tribe of Judah, after their pain, shall be sanctified in holiness before the Lord, to dwell in his presence day and night, forever and ever. (D&C 133)

If one chooses to interpret this as metaphor, fine. The "highway...cast up in the midst of the great deep" could mean modern travel. Their enemies becoming "a prey unto them" might mean that they cannot be threatened because of modern security features. "barren deserts" bringing forth pools of living water can mean that they'll enrich the saints. But still, it begs many questions:

• What does "smite the rocks" mean?
  
• How are we to interpret "the ice shall flow down at their presence"?
  
• How will their prophets "hear his voice" and "no longer stay themselves"? What does that mean?
  
• How shall the "everlasting hills" (the Rocky Mountains) "tremble" at their presence?
  

It's clear that this land is the land of Joseph, more clearly the land of Ephraim. The other tribes will filter in with others, but I think the scriptures are abundantly clear that something extraordinary will happen. If one takes the fantastic language used by the Lord and interprets it in any other light, it would in effect be saying that the Lord is in the habit of overstating the mundane and making it sound greater than it perhaps is.

[ERayR]

I've never understood McConkie's take on the ten lost tribes. Although it's been oft-quoted, it bears repeating:

If one chooses to interpret this as metaphor, fine. The "highway...cast up in the midst of the great deep" could mean modern travel. Their enemies becoming "a prey unto them" might mean that they cannot be threatened because of modern security features. "barren deserts" bringing forth pools of living water can mean that they'll enrich the saints. But still, it begs many questions:

• What does "smite the rocks" mean?
  
• How are we to interpret "the ice shall flow down at their presence"?
  
• How will their prophets "hear his voice" and "no longer stay themselves"? What does that mean?
  
• How shall the "everlasting hills" (the Rocky Mountains) "tremble" at their presence?
  

It's clear that this land is the land of Joseph, more clearly the land of Ephraim. The other tribes will filter in with others, but I think the scriptures are abundantly clear that something extraordinary will happen. If one takes the fantastic language used by the Lord and interprets it in any other light, it would in effect be saying that the Lord is in the habit of overstating the mundane and making it sound greater than it perhaps is.

Isn't flowery metaphoric language great.

[Connolly]

If one takes the fantastic language used by the Lord and interprets it in any other light, it would in effect be saying that the Lord is in the habit of overstating the mundane and making it sound greater than it perhaps is.

Or that we understate things and dismiss great things of eternal significance as little more than mundane due to our limited view.

[ERayR]

Or that we understate things and dismiss great things of eternal significance as little more than mundane due to our limited view.

I vote for this one.

[rodheadlee]

My definition is contextual. It is based on statements by many Church leaders and documented in 3 Ne. 16:1-4 and 17:4 that the resurrected Lord visited and ministered to the Lost Tribes in the same manner as he visited and ministered to the Nephites on this continent. In order for the Lord to do that, they had to be in a specific place, just as the Nephites were. Recall that they were gathered in the land Bountiful.

So, what did Joseph Fielding Smith mean when he said (cited in my previous post): ". . .they are intact [emphasis added] we must believe, else how shall the scriptures be fulfilled? There are too many prophecies concerning them and their return in a body [emphasis added] for us to ignore this fact."

How do you interpret President Smith's words?

Just because there is an intact group of Lost Ten Tribes doesn't mean there are not off shoot groups that were set aside during various migrations.

[Zakuska]

Just because there is an intact group of Lost Ten Tribes doesn't mean there are not off shoot groups that were set aside during various migrations.

Exactly. I count at least 3 other groups (Natural branches) planted in poor ground in Jacobs parable.

[Rob Osborn]

I am of the belief that the ten lost tribes are on a part of the earth hidden from view, that they are a vast population, and that the day will come when they will come into our view. There is a certain belief that they are on the inside of our hollow earth to which I am leaning towards. It does make sense. According to theory, the ice caps are the "plug" so to speak between the inner earth and outside. A specific mention of the ice flowing down at their presence is made in scripture. Another is that there will be a highway cast up from the great deep (oceans). This could very well mean that they will come from under the ocean when they first start to come. Another mention is th e"north countries". Suppose that this polar cap is the route to where access to the inner earth is located. This would thus mean that the inner countries are accessed through the north polar area- thus the north countries. Another key is that the oceans will retreat back into the north countries when they come and the earth will again be undivided by oceans. So, if the north countries are the inner earth it would make sense that waters would retreat back inside the earth, otherwise it wouldn't make much sense.

Scientifically, the auroras seen in the north were once thought to be a solar wind of sorts coming from the Sun. NASA has now determined that the auroras are caused by a plasma fountain shooting out from under the ice cap in the north and the particles being charged glow as they fall back to earth. Researchers say that the only explanation for it would have to be froma sun like object in the center of the earth. Those believeing in the inner earth have long believed that the inner earth has a sun of sorts in the center of the sky. One guy even wrote a book about traveling to the center of the earth and reported his journey about traveling in a land of giants (gravity working different there) and wholly mammoths. There are many non'LDS connections with the inner earth inhabitants being the lost ten tribes.

[nicolasconnault]

At the risk of derailing the thread, I must ask, do you consider the theory of evolution a matter involving "non-essential doctrine"?

That depends on your definition of doctrine. The scriptures make a fairly strong case for one particular definition of doctrine: faith, repentance, baptism and the gift of the Holy Ghost: what leads to salvation.

If you want to argue from a broader definition of doctrine, the theory of evolution is still not related to our salvation. It is, however, a very interesting topic that has divided our leaders. It is reassuring to know that our leaders are not divided on matters of salvation, though

[Zakuska]

I am of the belief that the ten lost tribes are on a part of the earth hidden from view, that they are a vast population, and that the day will come when they will come into our view. There is a certain belief that they are on the inside of our hollow earth to which I am leaning towards. It does make sense. According to theory, the ice caps are the "plug" so to speak between the inner earth and outside. A specific mention of the ice flowing down at their presence is made in scripture. Another is that there will be a highway cast up from the great deep (oceans). This could very well mean that they will come from under the ocean when they first start to come. Another mention is th e"north countries". Suppose that this polar cap is the route to where access to the inner earth is located. This would thus mean that the inner countries are accessed through the north polar area- thus the north countries. Another key is that the oceans will retreat back into the north countries when they come and the earth will again be undivided by oceans. So, if the north countries are the inner earth it would make sense that waters would retreat back inside the earth, otherwise it wouldn't make much sense.

Scientifically, the auroras seen in the north were once thought to be a solar wind of sorts coming from the Sun. NASA has now determined that the auroras are caused by a plasma fountain shooting out from under the ice cap in the north and the particles being charged glow as they fall back to earth. Researchers say that the only explanation for it would have to be froma sun like object in the center of the earth. Those believeing in the inner earth have long believed that the inner earth has a sun of sorts in the center of the sky. One guy even wrote a book about traveling to the center of the earth and reported his journey about traveling in a land of giants (gravity working different there) and wholly mammoths. There are many non'LDS connections with the inner earth inhabitants being the lost ten tribes.

I once entertained this hollow earth theory.

However, I now lean toward this "highway being cast up" as a reference to the restoration of the temple rites and work for the dead.