Intelligences Tabernacled with Spirits

[cdowis]

Note how Joseph says the "spirit of man", not in any way that separates it from intelligence/intelligences, but as man's individual spirit being "from eternity to eternity." He does not in any way indicate he is talking about general spirit matter, general intelligence, etc. He is referring to individual "being".

Please note the doctrine of "line upon line".

The concept of the pre-spirit intelligences is found in the Book of Abraham. It is merely a matter of words -- spirit and intelligence, JS is still teaching the doctrine, but uses the word "spirit".

See below.

Combine this with Doctrine and Covenants 93:29:

So which was it, Intelligence in the beginning, not spirit, or both, or they are the same. But in the case of this scripture, it seems to be referring to general intelligence, not individual intelligence. It doesn't mention that intelligences were individual before being "born" as spirits, but makes it sound like a higher form of general spirit matter. If were to assume it was speaking of individual intelligence was in the beginning, then again, is it also the "spirit of man" Joseph referred to, or are they different co-eternal individual identities that later merged in a birthing process?

Intelligences are composed of spirit matter. Matter, both physical and spirit, have always existed.

Let me give you guidence:

Intelligence is made of spirit matter (thus, they are interchangeable) becomes (tabernacled with) spirit bodies and then physical bodies. If you get the terms separate in your mind, you will overcome that cloud of confusion.

With that understanding, I see no contradiction between Elder Scott and Joseph Smith.

[Matthew J. Tandy]

Ahab:

That is an interesting perspective, but I am not sure I fully understand what you are saying. Are you stating that you believe man's individual intelligence/being was co-existent with God and eternal only in the sense that he was from the beginning, we are his offspring, and thus that essential element of us was from the beginning also? Is such is the case, I do not see how this works, as I believe the Spirit of God and the Spirit of Man are two different (or countless different) entities. I am certainly interesting though in learning more of your views.

Cdowis:

Please note the doctrine of "line upon line".

Line upon line is not the point I am making. I accept that his understanding grew and thus some things he said had more clarity than others. I also accept he wasn't perfect and he simply may have interchangeably used some terms in some instances that cause there to be some confusion now. Beyond that, those who recorded his words also may have added an extra "a", "an", "the" etc. My point in the quotes is simply to show that as they stand, there is room for ambiguity and confusion. That you feel you have to give "guidance" on terminology is in and of itself evidence that such confusion can exist.

Intelligences are composed of spirit matter. Matter, both physical and spirit, have always existed.

This is true. I never said otherwise. The quotes however present that both individual spirit and/or individual intelligence existed in the beginning, not just general matter. I specifically addressed that. Further, Joseph said "Intelligence is eternal and exists upon a self-existant principle. It is a spirit from age to age, and there is no creation about it.". Is he speaking purely metaphysically, or is he saying an intelligence is a spirit? Ah, the possibilities. Just because you hold to one view (which I also hold to, though not because of these ambiguous quotes) does not mean other intelligent and spiritual men could not come to different conclusions.

Intelligence is made of spirit matter (thus, they are interchangeable) becomes (tabernacled with) spirit bodies and then physical bodies. If you get the terms separate in your mind, you will overcome that cloud of confusion.

Again, "The spirit of man is not a created being; it existed from eternity, and will exist in eternity..." is what Joseph said. I see clearly that he says the spirit of man, not "spirit matter is not a created being" (which wouldn't make any sense at all linguistically), or "spirit is not a created substance" (which he does say in other quotes). It appears to me that you are the one who is combining terms, not me. But I have been wrong before and will be wrong yet again in the future. I have no desire to be dogmatic on this doctrinal element, just to show how different views are legitimately reached.

[Ahab]

Ahab:

That is an interesting perspective, but I am not sure I fully understand what you are saying. Are you stating that you believe man's individual intelligence/being was co-existent with God and eternal only in the sense that he was from the beginning, we are his offspring, and thus that essential element of us was from the beginning also?

You're getting closer, but you're not quite there yet. Not only am I saying that man's individual intelligence/being was co-existent with God. I'm also saying that man's individual intelligence/being is exactly the same as God's individual intelligence/being, with all of us never having a beginning to our existence. We are the literal offspring of God, our Father in heaven, who reproduced himself as the kind of being he is. There are various stages along the way to becoming as perfect as our Father in heaven is, though, so just as there have always been totally perfect specimens of individuals who are our kind of being, there have also always been specimens along each stage of the way, with some of our kind existing in the "human" stage like we are in now, and others who only had a spirit body before coming to this Earth or an orb like this one to become "human", and others of our kind existing as spirits who have already been human but are awaiting their resurrection, and others who have been resurrected but who did not and may not ever attain the same state of perfection of our Father in heaven.

[Matthew J. Tandy]

Not only am I saying that man's individual intelligence/being was co-existent with God. I'm also saying that man's individual intelligence/being is exactly the same as God's individual intelligence/being

Alright, so I understand and readily accept the first part. It's the second part of your belief I am trying to wrap my mind around. When you say "exactly the same" are you trying to say of the same nature and substance (such as DNA, molecular make-up, etc) or are you saying there was a singular "intelligence" from which we all, including God come from and are a part of, similar to the Trinitarian view of of Christ being a part of God while being wholly God or the Hindu world spirit of which we are all a part of?

[cdowis]

Again, "The spirit of man is not a created being; it existed from eternity, and will exist in eternity..." is what Joseph said. I see clearly that he says the spirit of man, not "spirit matter is not a created being" (which wouldn't make any sense at all linguistically), or "spirit is not a created substance" (which he does say in other quotes). It appears to me that you are the one who is combining terms, not me. But I have been wrong before and will be wrong yet again in the future. I have no desire to be dogmatic on this doctrinal element, just to show how different views are legitimately reached.

JS is using the knowledge and terms at that time, whilst Elder Scott is speaking with the knowledge of all the scriptures revealed in our day.

You are trying very had to pretend that they contradict each other, but the fact remains that Elder Scott knows what he is talking about.

[Matthew J. Tandy]

Elder Scott knows what he is talking about.

Please find me one place where I have said he does not. I have refuted you in this repeatedly. I agree with him, I believe he is completely right. Why the heck are you acting like I was attacking him?

[Ahab]

Alright, so I understand and readily accept the first part. It's the second part of your belief I am trying to wrap my mind around. When you say "exactly the same" are you trying to say of the same nature and substance (such as DNA, molecular make-up, etc) or are you saying there was a singular "intelligence" from which we all, including God come from and are a part of, similar to the Trinitarian view of of Christ being a part of God while being wholly God or the Hindu world spirit of which we are all a part of?

I think my understanding on this issue will become crystal clear to you as soon as you realize we are the same kind of being as our Father in heaven, rather than being different kinds of beings. We are what he is, even though he is as perfect and perfectly good as our kind of being can possibly get and we are not that perfect.... yet... if we, as individuals, will ever become as perfect as him.

[Matthew J. Tandy]

You are trying very had to pretend that they contradict each other

Further, what is this crap about "trying very hard to pretend". Are you trying to be demeaning, or imply that I am anti-LDS or anti-Elder Scott? What are you getting at cdowis?

I promise I fully believe that Elder Scott's quote is clear, succinct, and accurate, but that some apostles (such as B.H. Roberts) and Joseph Smith have used phrases and terms interchangeably in such a way as to allow reasonable men and women to come to different conclusions.

You have failed to refute any of my quotes other than to make arguments I already refuted and now to shift the goal posts and say they speaking from different times. Really? Obviously they are. That doesn't change that confusion exists because the terms are from different times and due in large part to a progression.

I have tried hard to have an adult conversation with you. I have provided quotes, you have tried to offer me "guidance" that does not apply in these cases. You have accused me of "trying very hard to pretend". You have implied that I don't believe Elder Scott knows what he is talking about. I have repeatedly tried to use inclusive language stating that we agree he is right, you have ignored all common ground and logical analysis. Ahab and I disagree on the quotes and the nature of spirits, but we are having a mature, enlightening discussion. Try joining us.

[cdowis]

The talk is Elder Richard G. Scott's April 2010 Sunday Morning General Conference talk "He Lives! All Glory to His Name!"

In the second paragraph, I came across an interesting statement he made. Was it a mistake? Was it doctrine not taught? Does it make sense? I think it's an interesting concept, one I have had before, but that he succinctly (whether intentionally or not) sums it up.

snip

To say I need to humble myself and trust Elder Scott (which I do) when other Apostles have stated differently while expressly addressing the matter,

snip

I have umpteen quotes from Apostles and Prophets with opposing views, some a form of tripartite existence, others that "spirit is light is truth is intelligence" etc so spirit and intelligence are the same thing and we weren't really "born", but organized by our Father in Heaven, and the third (and most valid view) that we just don't know.

snip

I don't think he meant it to be anything other than common knowledge. But perhaps not, perhaps he was aware of the controversy and was subtly moving the church towards the right direction.

It appears that you agree with Elder Scott, but you have a round-about way of stating that.

I am addressing the idea that "other Apostles have stated differently" and that Elder Scott is clarifying something that was unclear before. I asked for documentation and I am responding to your response to my request. Did Elder Scott contradict JS? You seem to make that argument, and then end up defending him.

This is a very convoluted discussion, and a big waste of time. Sorry, but let's move on to something else.

PS Pundits are not immune from being confused (and flawed logic), regardless of how many languages they are familiar with.

[Matthew J. Tandy]

I think my understanding on this issue will become crystal clear to you as soon as you realize we are the same kind of being as our Father in heaven, rather than being different kinds of beings. We are what he is, even though he is as perfect and perfectly good as our kind of being can possibly get and we are not that perfect.... yet... if we, as individuals, will ever become as perfect as him.

I completely accept that Ahab. We are, literally, his children by Spirit. Our individual intelligences are of the same make as his own, though his is greater or more perfect in a sense. We will become even as he is. So when you are saying "I'm also saying that man's individual intelligence/being is exactly the same as God's individual intelligence/being" you are not saying they are one in a literal sense ala trinity god/christ, but that the DNA (for example) is the same. If that is the case, we are in complete and total agreement. We come from the same primordial soup so to speak.

[Matthew J. Tandy]

Did Elder Scott contradict JS? You seem to make that argument, and then end up defending him.

I apologize if it seems that way. Let me be abundantly clear:

1) Joseph knew exactly what was talking about. He saw it in vision.

2) Joseph, and other early apostles and prophets, had not solidified definitive language on certain doctrinal aspects. They used some terms interchangeably that we now define in more nuanced ways to clearly convey the principles and truths contained therein.

3) Because of the weakness of human language to express divine truths, some apostles and many in the church have made statements, often without meaning to address the topic, that imply a bipartite rather than a tripartite existence of tabernacles leading up to this life.

4) Elder Scott, having the perspective of over a century of the restored gospel and being an articulate apostle, correctly stated the manner of existence and is in harmony with what Joseph knew, even is it was not clearly expressed back then.

[Ahab]

I completely accept that Ahab. We are, literally, his children by Spirit. Our individual intelligences are of the same make as his own, though his is greater or more perfect in a sense. We will become even as he is. So when you are saying "I'm also saying that man's individual intelligence/being is exactly the same as God's individual intelligence/being" you are not saying they are one in a literal sense ala trinity god/christ, but that the DNA (for example) is the same. If that is the case, we are in complete and total agreement. We come from the same primordial soup so to speak.

I was what most people classify as "Protestant" before I became LDS, and I still like to try to keep current with most Protestant beliefs just because I like to to know what they're thinking, and I'm really not so sure that the "trinity god/christ" concept is all that different from our own (LDS) concept on this issue,.. even though most of them folk vehemently deny that we're in agreement.

There are those of other "faiths" who don't correctly understand their own doctrine, you know, just as there are those who are LDS who are still in the process of learning our own doctrine.

Anyway, no matter how you slice it, we are all that one true God, even though we are not the same person, and what I am telling you now is the actual gospel truth on this issue, whether or not you believe it:

There is only one true God, and that is what we all are, by nature, whether good or evil.