Once again, 2 Nephi 25:23

[JDave]

Now 4 out of 35 REALLY sounds like "dominant".

Unfortunately we are still on the first of my 5-part post, trying to decide whether some specific phrases Rob included are being used by him in a way reflective of how the original authors used them. We'll get to the numbers later.

[Rob Bowman]

Dave,

I

[Vance]

Rob,

What level of effort did Jesus say should be put forth with this statement?

Mark 12:29 And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord:

30 And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength: this is the first commandment.

[Bernard Gui]

What level of effort did Jesus say should be put forth with this statement?

Mark 12:29 And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord:

30 And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength: this is the first commandment.

I'm sure I'm misinformed, but wouldn't that be the Law, and

the Law no longer applies? In fact, if you try to keep the Law,

you are already condemned. That's how I understand the Protestant

position.

Bernard

[Vance]

I'm sure I'm misinformed, but wouldn't that be the Law, and

the Law no longer applies? In fact, if you try to keep the Law,

you are already condemned. That's how I understand the Protestant

position.

Bernard

Well, I guess we will have to add some context then.

Mark 12:28

[Rob Bowman]

Vance,

You wrote:

Rob,

What level of effort did Jesus say should be put forth with this statement?

Mark 12:29 And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord:

30 And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength: this is the first commandment.

Absolutely all the effort one can possibly give to it, with nothing held back.

I would love to hear from you or anyone else who feels that he or she is successfully keeping this commandment on a consistent basis. If nothing else, hanging around such people would I am sure be very good for my spiritual well-being.

[JDave]

Rob,

Thanks for laying out your thoughts. It does make some things clearer, but leaves some questions and concerns. The main concern is you say you are not looking for "the best grist for our

[Vance]

Absolutely all the effort one can possibly give to it, with nothing held back.

So, what is you beef with those quotes that you falsely represent as dominant?

I would love to hear from you or anyone else who feels that he or she is successfully keeping this commandment on a consistent basis.

Well, I have consistently obeyed the first, second, third, fourth, fifth, sixth and seventh. By the way you talk, shall we assume that you haven't?

If nothing else, hanging around such people would I am sure be very good for my spiritual well-being.

What would be better for your spiritual well-being would be to obey God.

Acts 5:32 And we are his witnesses of these things; and so is also the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given to them that obey him.

[David T]

So, what is you beef with those quotes that you falsely represent as dominant?

Well, I have consistently obeyed the first, second, third, fourth, fifth, sixth and seventh. By the way you talk, shall we assume that you haven't?

Heck, I haven't. There's definitely times when I've let other things get priority over doing God's will. That strikes commandment 1 and 2 off the list. I've said things and exhibited behavior that is unbecoming of someone who has Covenanted to take the Name of the Lord upon me. That's number 3.

By Christ's sermon on the mount standards, I can't say I've consistently and completely obeyed any of the 10 commandments. Yet I know it's something I've covenanted to do, and I'm striving to do better at it, and consistently get better on a regular basis.

[Bernard Gui]

Absolutely all the effort one can possibly give to it, with nothing held back.

I would love to hear from you or anyone else who feels that he or she is successfully keeping this commandment on a consistent basis. If nothing else, hanging around such people would I am sure be very good for my spiritual well-being.

You know, of course, that this is a strawman. Mormons do not believe perfection is an event.

Man is the child of God, formed in the divine image and endowed with divine attributes,

and even as the infant son of an earthly father and mother is capable in due time of becoming

a man, so the undeveloped offspring of celestial parentage is capable, by experience through

ages and aeons, of evolving into a God.

First Presidency Declaration, The Origin of Man, 1916, reprinted in The Era, April, 2002)

Bernard

[Vance]

Yet I know it's something I've covenanted to do, and I'm striving to do better at it, and consistently get better on a regular basis.

Well, that is the important part. You are facing the right direction AND moving forward.

If Rob is like other anti-Mormon evangelicals I've encountered, he will hit us up with the "your not perfect and you never can be, so your theology is false" shtick.

I like to take the advise of the author of Hebrews with regard to church leadership.

Heb 13:17 Obey them that have the rule over you, and submit yourselves: for they watch for your souls, as they that must give account, that they may do it with joy, and not with grief: for that is unprofitable for you.

[Rob Bowman]

Since many (not all) of the Mormons here feel that I have not been presenting a balanced or fair understanding of the LDS doctrine of salvation, I would like to redirect our attention to an exposition of that doctrine from a widely-used, contemporary LDS publication. The obvious choice is Gospel Principles, which has been in print continuously for nearly 40 years, revised in 2009, and is being studied by Mormons this year and next. Therefore, I am going to start a new thread that will focus on that publication's teaching about salvation. Perhaps a fresh start and a focus on a current LDS publication of wide use today will enable us to get out of the morass in which we seem to have gotten stuck in this thread.

[JDave]

Since many (not all) of the Mormons here feel that I have not been presenting a balanced or fair understanding of the LDS doctrine of salvation, I would like to redirect our attention to an exposition of that doctrine from a widely-used, contemporary LDS publication. The obvious choice is Gospel Principles, which has been in print continuously for nearly 40 years, revised in 2009, and is being studied by Mormons this year and next. Therefore, I am going to start a new thread that will focus on that publication's teaching about salvation. Perhaps a fresh start and a focus on a current LDS publication of wide use today will enable us to get out of the morass in which we seem to have gotten stuck in this thread.

You would like to redirect the attention elsewhere?

Isn't there a more honorable way to bow out of this thread? Simply leaving very easy to understand concerns unanswered, and doing so when a small mountain of evidence is weighing against you, and then claiming "we seem to have gotten stuck in this thread."??? Huh?

[Rob Bowman]

Dave,

This thread has gone on for weeks. I have responded numerous times to you and several others here. Is this to be "the thread that never ends"? I don't agree that I am leaving "very easy to understand concerns unanswered." Perhaps you'd like to name ONE such concern that you think I have not addressed.

One would think, after your complaining about me not giving a balanced view of the LDS doctrine, you would be all in favor of focusing the discussion on a widely used LDS doctrinal manual's presentation of the subject. Apparently not. Somehow, it is not "honorable" for me to propose focusing on a current LDS exposition of the doctrine in dispute. Now who's really interested in fairly treating the actual position of the LDS Church? Hmm?

You would like to redirect the attention elsewhere?

Isn't there a more honorable way to bow out of this thread? Simply leaving very easy to understand concerns unanswered, and doing so when a small mountain of evidence is weighing against you, and then claiming "we seem to have gotten stuck in this thread."??? Huh?

[JDave]

This thread has gone on for weeks. I have responded numerous times to you and several others here.

You claimed I was simply being ambiguous until I showed a mountain of quotes displaying, quite unambiguously, that there was a lot of context being left out of your paragraph. And other than discussing whether you could rationalize the use of phrases from two church leaders, which had already been discussed previously, you made ONE response to my post. I have replied to you, and was expecting something of a discussion to follow.

I don't agree that I am leaving "very easy to understand concerns unanswered." Perhaps you'd like to name ONE such concern that you think I have not addressed.

There are a number in my aforementioned reply to you, but here is the first of them.

The main concern is you say you are not looking for "the best grist for our

[JDave]

bump

[Rob Bowman]

Dave,

I did address the two issues you raised in the paragraph you quoted. You aren't satisfied with my response, but I did address them.

Previously, you quoted my comments about starting a new thread in order to give us a fresh start in discussing the LDS doctrine of salvation, and then you wrote: "You would like to redirect the attention elsewhere? Isn't there a more honorable way to bow out of this thread?" I took that to mean that you objected to my proposing a fresh start on a new thread.

I have posted a list of (partial) agreements between the evangelical and LDS doctrines of salvation, based on Gospel Principles, in that new thread. Why don't you post a comment there telling me if you think I have stated those matters accurately?

[JDave]

For my simple concern I was thinking the paragraph read as a whole, but I probably should have bolded the last sentence.

The main concern is you say you are not looking for "the best grist for our

[JDave]

If what you mean here is that we must extend our best effort in order to gain entrance into the celestial kingdom, and if you agree that this is what 2 Nephi 25:23 means, then you have agreed with what I called the dominant interpretation of 2 Nephi 25:23.

I agreed that LDS beliefs entail extending your best effort, if that best effort was meant to describe a non-hypocritical effort. That is a non-trivial distinction from the message reflected in the paragraph you constructed. And since you have displayed no interest in modifying your paragraph, I would say that I have not agreed with you on that point. You have yet to make a reasonable description of what LDS belief is with respect to 2 Nephi 25:23. You have highlighted one aspect of LDS belief only, and chosen some of the most extreme sounding phrases in so doing.

Most of your series tries to address in painstaking detail whether various statements by LDS leaders in relation to 2 Nephi 25:23