The Olmec and the Jaredites

[cdowis]

First, I am not the one making a claim.

I was responding to a rhetorical question.

I have no imperative to provide references in this matter. However, it is absurd to suggest that no scholar who is an expert in Meso American history has ever encountered the claims you are making.

I am making the claim that nonLDS scholars have little or no knowledge of this book. Again,it was a response to a question.

Dr. Gardner just provided me a list of scholars within the Church who are beginning to consider the possibility. There is nothing stopping any of them publishing evidence in favor of your claims in any journal. There is no conspiracy.

Who said there was? I certainly made no such statement, only that there was little or no interest among those scholars in a book delivered by an angel.

Secondly, you (and to a lesser extent, Dr. Gardner) are making an argument from silence. You seem to be outraged that anyone could conclude that without evidence, your thesis fails.

So far, I have couted three times where you have put words into my mouth. I make no argument, only an observation and asking a few questions.

And I am not outraged about anything, except ignorance and phoney arguments.

Dr. Gardner recognizes there is no strong evidence but is hopeful these new areas of study with bear fruit. I think it is reasonable to conclude that these particular claims of this section of the BoM are unsupported, based on the current evidence. Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence, but it does not prove anything either.

Am I phrasing this right? Dr. Gardner, correct what may be amiss.

[Brant Gardner]

Dr. Gardner, correct what may be amiss.

At least this needs to be corrected. Mr. Gardner, or Brant. I haven't earned the "Dr." (wish I had, but that is still different from having done so). (all these smileys and not a simple grin!)

Dr. Gardner recognizes there is no strong evidence but is hopeful these new areas of study with bear fruit. I think it is reasonable to conclude that these particular claims of this section of the BoM are unsupported, based on the current evidence. Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence, but it does not prove anything either.

I believe you have mistaken my position. Strong evidence depends upon your definition of strong. Proof there certainly isn't. Evidence there is. All historical enterprises deal with evidence, and placing the Book of Mormon into a historical context is no different. I have seen quite a bit of information that suggests that the Book of Mormon reflects a creation culture from Mesoamerica during the time periods it indicates.

In many cases, the absence of data is only in the presumption of what should have been there--and that is as much an argument against the assumptions as the the Book of Mormon.

[shrff]

Well, the perspective that you have going into the reading of the book apparently makes a big difference. My copy of Coe's "The Maya" is marked with dozens of sticky tabs which note items that I found of particular interest relative to the Book of Mormon story. You ought to read Coe's "Breaking the Maya Code" where the researchers finally figure out that one of the common elements in the Mayan glyphs was an element that they translate to mean: "It came to pass."

WW

While I was in graduate school at BYU I had 2 semesters of Maya Hieroglyphic Writing from Steve Houston. We specifically discussed u-ti-ya and the different variants during the course.

Although "since it came to pass" is one of the accepted English translations of this text, Houston argued fairly convincingly that u-ti-ya is used in very different contexts in Maya writing than in the text of the BOM. Steve is not a member of the Church, but he's a good guy, and I don't think that he would try to obscure this issue for religious reasons. Besides, he's a Quaker, they're friends with everyone.

[ERayR]

While I was in graduate school at BYU I had 2 semesters of Maya Hieroglyphic Writing from Steve Houston. We specifically discussed u-ti-ya and the different variants during the course.

Although "since it came to pass" is one of the accepted English translations of this text, Houston argued fairly convincingly that u-ti-ya is used in very different contexts in Maya writing than in the text of the BOM. Steve is not a member of the Church, but he's a good guy, and I don't think that he would try to obscure this issue for religious reasons. Besides, he's a Quaker, they're friends with everyone.

Were his arguments conclusive or just convincing? There are some convincing arguments the other way. It comes down to whose convincing arguments one wants to accept. To me it shows at the very least there was common terminology. How it was used is another question.

[Brant Gardner]

Houston argued fairly convincingly that u-ti-ya is used in very different contexts in Maya writing than in the text of the BOM.

Can you give some indicators of the context in which it is used in Maya? I seem to remember that the tense can differ, with "since it came to pass" and "it happens." I believe there was a future as well.

Anyway, what was the context he mentioned (I haven't met him, but heard him give a presentation and have read several things he has written--he certainly should be considered as authoritative on this subject, or at least as close to authoritative such topics can be).

[Olavarria]

Can you give some indicators of the context in which it is used in Maya? I seem to remember that the tense can differ, with "since it came to pass" and "it happens." I believe there was a future as well.

Anyway, what was the context he mentioned (I haven't met him, but heard him give a presentation and have read several things he has written--he certainly should be considered as authoritative on this subject, or at least as close to authoritative such topics can be).

I think the whole "it came to pass" thing is a little overblown. What language on earth does not have a similiar expression?

OLMEC DATES(1)

2500-1500BC: The first farming villages in Mesoamerica appear. Settlers raise maize, chili peppers, squash and cotton.

1500-1200BC: Olmec build San Lorenzo. San Lorenzo was excavated by a Yale expedition between 1966 and 1969, "fully developed Olmec culture, represented typically by gigantic basalt sculptures fashioned in a distinctive style, proved to date back to 1400BC"(2).

1100BC: By this time, La Venta becomes a major Olmec site.

900BC: The Olmec site of San Lorenzo is destroyed. Olmec monuments are attacked, defaced and buried(3).

900BC: Olmec settlement spreads into areas east of Tehuantepec(4).

c. 400 BC: The Olmec site of La Venta is destroyed(5).

Sources

(1)Charles Phillips, Complete Illustrated History of the Aztec and Maya; Lorenz Books (June 25, 2007), pg 24

(2)Michael Coe, The Maya 7th Edition, pg 50.

(3)Charles Phillips, Complete Illustrated History of the Aztec and Maya; Lorenz Books (June 25, 2007), pg 29.

(4)John Clark has noted:"Given what little is known of Jaredite settlement, we need to be careful not to imagine that we know more than we do. Second, the text states that the land southward was opened up during the days of King Lib. It is worth pointing out that the explosion of Olmec influence east of Tehuantepec (Sorenson's land southward) occurred after 900 BC, with only spotty influence before. I think the text can be read as indicating that the south lands opened up at this time, with colonization being part of the package."http://farms.byu.edu/publications/review/?...um=2&id=545

(5)Charles Phillips, Complete Illustrated History of the Aztec and Maya; Lorenz Books (June 25, 2007), pg 292.

[Olavarria]

I think the whole "it came to pass" thing is a little overblown. What language on earth does not have a similiar expression?

OLMEC DATES(1)

2500-1500BC: The first farming villages in Mesoamerica appear. Settlers raise maize, chili peppers, squash and cotton.

1500-1200BC: Olmec build San Lorenzo. San Lorenzo was excavated by a Yale expedition between 1966 and 1969, "fully developed Olmec culture, represented typically by gigantic basalt sculptures fashioned in a distinctive style, proved to date back to 1400BC"(2).

1100BC: By this time, La Venta becomes a major Olmec site.

900BC: The Olmec site of San Lorenzo is destroyed. Olmec monuments are attacked, defaced and buried(3).

900BC: Olmec settlement spreads into areas east of Tehuantepec(4).

c. 400 BC: The Olmec site of La Venta is destroyed(5).

Sources

(1)Charles Phillips, Complete Illustrated History of the Aztec and Maya; Lorenz Books (June 25, 2007), pg 24

(2)Michael Coe, The Maya 7th Edition, pg 50.

(3)Charles Phillips, Complete Illustrated History of the Aztec and Maya; Lorenz Books (June 25, 2007), pg 29.

(4)John Clark has noted:"Given what little is known of Jaredite settlement, we need to be careful not to imagine that we know more than we do. Second, the text states that the land southward was opened up during the days of King Lib. It is worth pointing out that the explosion of Olmec influence east of Tehuantepec (Sorenson's land southward) occurred after 900 BC, with only spotty influence before. I think the text can be read as indicating that the south lands opened up at this time, with colonization being part of the package."http://farms.byu.edu/publications/review/?...um=2&id=545

(5)Charles Phillips, Complete Illustrated History of the Aztec and Maya; Lorenz Books (June 25, 2007), pg 292.

To know the time of the Jaredites we must look at the latest Jaredites on record and then count backward, from Ether to Lib. Here are the generations of a Jaredite ruling lineage from Ether down to Lib as found in Ether 1:17-30.

Ether*

Coriantor

Moron

Ethem

Ahah

Seth

Shiblon

Com

Coriantum

Amnigaddah

Aaron*

Heth

Hearthom

Lib

Kish

Corom

Levi

Kim

Morianton*

Riplakish

Shez

Heth

Com

Coriantum

Emer

Omer

Shule

Kib

Orihah

Jared

Now, the trickier part, some Jaredite kings lived really long lives. Several kings are described as being "exceedingly old" and having children in their old age, with at least one king living past 100 years(Ether 7:7 and 9:23,24)! So, how many years were in 14 generations? We don't know; we will have to approximate about 65 years(3). Our safest bets are at the 14th generation mark because Morianton does not seem to be a son of Riplakish. He might have been a son, but he also might have been a grand son, or even great-grand son(4).

JAREDITE DATES(+/- 200 Years)

2350BC: Jaredites land in New World(5).

1310BC: King Lib builds a great city by the narrow neck of land, by the place where the sea divides the land. Jaredites continue to avoid settlement south of the narrowneck of land, but now begin to enter sparodically in search of game(Ether 10:19-21).

855BC: There began to be wars and contentions in all the land, and also many famines and pestilences, insomuch that there was a great destruction, such an one as never had been known upon the face of the earth; and all this came to pass in the days of Shiblom(Ether 11:5-7).

400BC: End of the Jaredite ruling lineage. If the prophesy recorded in Ether 11:20-21 was declared before the arrival of Lehi's group then Coriantumr could not have lived no earlier than 600 B.C. If Coriantmr died just one day before Mosiah's group arrived then he could not have lived later than 200bc.

Sources

(1)Ether 11: 23, "And it came to pass that Coriantor begat Ether, and he died, having dwelt in captivity all his days."

(2)Ether 10:29-31, "And he begat Heth, and Heth lived in captivity all his days. And Heth begat Aaron, and Aaron dwelt in captivity all his days; and he begat Amnigaddah, and Amnigaddah also dwelt in captivity all his days; and he begat Coriantum, and Coriantum dwelt in captivity all his days; and he begat Com."

(3)Sidney B. Sperry, Book of Mormon Chronology (Salt Lake City: Deseret Book Co., 1970). These dates follow Sperry's earliest estimate of 65 years per generation in the Jaredite king list, which is more in line with an early date for Babel and the confusion of tongues. Possible time gaps in the king list have been questioned where "descendant" replaces "son." Sperry (p. 24) points out that "descendant" implies the meaning of "son," rather than indicating a generation gap. For example, the king list says, "Shez was the son of Heth" (Ether 1:25), but the text says Shez was a "descendant" of Heth (Ether 10:1). Sperry places the Jaredite destruction at about 550 BC in one estimate, but recognizes the Jaredites may have continued contemporary with the Mulekites for well over a century (pp. 23,25).http://www.ancientamerica.org/library/medi...F%20LIB.htm?n=0

(4)Ether 10:8-9, "And when he had reigned for the space of forty and two years the people did rise up in rebellion against him; and there began to be war again in the land, insomuch that Riplakish was killed, and his descendants were driven out of the land. And it came to pass after the space of many years, Morianton, (he being a descendant of Riplakish) gathered together an army of outcasts, and went forth and gave battle unto the people; and he gained power over many cities; and the war became exceedingly sore, and did last for the space of many years; and he did gain power over all the land, and did establish himself king over all the land."

(5)We have a minimum of 23 Jaredite kings, maybe more.

[Olavarria]

bump

[Olavarria]

bump

[Anijen]

Pedro,

Kim Goldsmith archeologist and recent convert (she and her hubby were in charge of Teotihuacan but she has since moved to Chiapas, Olmec area). She might be one to talk to. I can connect you to her if you would like.

As far as the OP I have always been impressed with both Clark and Sorenson.

[Olavarria]

Pedro,

Kim Goldsmith archeologist and recent convert (she and her hubby were in charge of Teotihuacan but she has since moved to Chiapas, Olmec area). She might be one to talk to. I can connect you to her if you would like.

As far as the OP I have always been impressed with both Clark and Sorenson.

Cool, how do you know them?

Clark,Gardner and Sorenson are the best.

[Anijen]

Cool, how do you know them?

Clark,Gardner and Sorenson are the best.

I know Kim but Gardner, Clark and Sorenson I do not know personally. I do have their books and read many of their papers.

[Olavarria]

I know Kim but Gardner, Clark and Sorenson I do not know personally. I do have their books and read many of their papers.

What i like are the little incedental details that square with what we are learning about Meso. It adds color to Mormon's narrative.