Did God make evil? Can God do evil?

[thesometimesaint]

Expositor:

LDS do not believe in creation ex nihilo.

[AddamS]

Then how about a more (relatively) modern example;

God sends David to commit acts of murder and mayhem, acts that if not commisioned by God would be considered atrocities..

But since he has God's blessing the acts aren't evil?

[thesometimesaint]

Expositor:

Whatever David's sin were they are between God and David. I have a hard enough time being responsible for my own.

[changed]

But someone was created knowing he would do wickedness, no?

29 Man was also in the beginning with God. Intelligence, or the light of dtruth, was not created or made, neither indeed can be.

(Doctrine and Covenants | Section 93:29)

We are as old as God. He tranforms us, He did not ex-Nihilo create us. God is cleaning up a mess He did not create.

link

"God himself, finding he was in the midst of spirits and glory, because he was more intelligent, saw proper to institute laws whereby the rest could have a privilege to advance like himself."

While wandering around in the universe one day, God happened across some spirits (us). He took pity on us, and provided a way whereby we could advance - if we wanted to.

[changed]

In the beginning, there was nothing... oh yeah... ummm except Satan... He was around... but we'll get to him later...

If God didn't create him, who did?

In "a" beginning (there is no grand beginning) there was a bunch of unformed matter/spirits. In the beginning the Earth was without form - not there was no Earth, the Earth existed, it just existed without form.

Conservation of mass/energy, you don't get something from nothing. That we are now surrounded by something means something has always and will always exist - in one form or another.

Everyone understands what "no end" means... why is it so hard to get across the idea of "no beginning". There is no ultimate beginning. The origins debate is pointless - there is no origin.

[Mudcat]

We are as old as God. He tranforms us, He did not ex-Nihilo create us. God is cleaning up a mess He did not create.

Well, who made the mess then? Maybe the guy was that was the actual creator of things... maybe he just liked "messy"?

Other alternative, would be that at some point, order arose from chaos. Though there is an obvious contradiction there.

Somehow, I don't find the notion of God being the cosmic janitor, so to speak all, that appealing.

Now I don't mean that in an offensive way to janitors. If it weren't for them their would be big messes everywhere or we would learn to clean up our messes. One or the other, or things would just be messy.

To paraphrase your statement in simplicity.

The universe was always a mess.

God arose from the mess and decided it was messy.

God figured out a way to get others help in the cleanup project by organizing them from the mess.

So God and others cleaned up the universe as much as they could.

However they couldn't completely clean the universe because without a little mess there would be no reason to clean. And without a reason to clean there would be no reason make others.

Is that analogy suitable?

If so, God is permissive to evil though he doesn't have to be.

[Glenn101]

If good and evil are created "things" then God was the creator of evil. However good and evil are not tangible things, they are descriptors. Anyone who argues that God should not have created Satan because He knew that Stan would become evil is arguing against their own creation (and that of everyone else except Jesus).

Glenn

[Zakuska]

If God did anything that was evil, He would cease to be God.

from Skousen

[Mudcat]

If good and evil are created "things" then God was the creator of evil. However good and evil are not tangible things, they are descriptors. Anyone who argues that God should not have created Satan because He knew that Stan would become evil is arguing against their own creation (and that of everyone else except Jesus).

Glenn

Hey Glenn,

Hope things are good with you. I liked your point about us not griping about Satan.. save Christ of course.

Your precursor to that is a response that I have heard within my own faith. Essentially being that evil/good exist in the abstract unless attached to something. IOW neither good nor evil is realized until something is good or evil.

The problem I see arising from such is that like Changed's view, given relativism. That good and evil wait upon the descriptor to actually assign their relevance.

So the descriptor has the power to actually determine what is good and what is evil. IOW, it makes God the determinate of good and evil and removes any standard from God other than what he determines.

or am I wrong here?

Regards,

Mudcat

edit... I think I'll strike that. That made much more sense when I wrote it last night, than it does when I am rereading. I may be getting the cart before the horse on that.

[O-Brother]

God calls people unto repentance using natural disasters that people interpret as

being evil, but I think death to God is like the blink of an eye.

D&C 43 25 How oft have I called upon you by the mouth of my servants, and by the ministering of angels, and by mine own voice, and by the voice of thunderings, and by the voice of lightnings, and by the voice of tempests, and by the voice of earthquakes, and great hailstorms, and by the voice of famines and pestilences of every kind, and by the great sound of a trump, and by the voice of judgment, and by the voice of mercy all the day long, and by the voice of glory and honor and the riches of eternal life, and would have saved you with an everlasting salvation, but ye would not!

3NEPHI 8

6 And there was also a great and terrible tempest; and there was terrible thunder, insomuch that it did shake the whole earth as if it was about to divide asunder.

7 And there were exceedingly sharp lightnings, such as never had been known in all the land.

8 And the city of Zarahemla did take fire.

9 And the city of Moroni did sink into the depths of the sea, and the inhabitants thereof were drowned.

10 And the earth was carried up upon the city of Moronihah, that in the place of the city there became a great mountain.

11 And there was a great and terrible destruction in the land southward.

12 But behold, there was a more great and terrible destruction in the land northward; for behold, the whole face of the land was changed, because of the tempest and the whirlwinds, and the thunderings and the lightnings, and the exceedingly great quaking of the whole earth;

13 And the highways were broken up, and the level roads were spoiled, and many smooth places became rough.

14 And many agreat and notable cities were sunk, and many were burned, and many were shaken till the buildings thereof had fallen to the earth, and the inhabitants thereof were slain, and the places were left desolate.

15 And there were some cities which remained; but the damage thereof was exceedingly great, and there were many in them who were slain.

16 And there were some who were carried away in the whirlwind; and whither they went no man knoweth, save they know that they were carried away.

17 And thus the face of the whole earth became deformed, because of the tempests, and the thunderings, and the lightnings, and the quaking of the earth.

18 And behold, the rocks were rent in twain; they were broken up upon the face of the whole earth, insomuch that they were afound in broken fragments, and in seams and in cracks, upon all the face of the land.

19 And it came to pass that when the thunderings, and the lightnings, and the storm, and the tempest, and the quakings of the earth did cease

[changed]

Well, who made the mess then?

no one did - no beginning = no one made it. (just like there's no end).

Maybe the guy was that was the actual creator of things... maybe he just liked "messy"?

Other alternative, would be that at some point, order arose from chaos. Though there is an obvious contradiction there.

Somehow, I don't find the notion of God being the cosmic janitor, so to speak all, that appealing.

LOL - it's either the selfless loving janitor, or He's the creator of evil. one or the other . Janitors don't clean people up, they clean dirt up. Teachers/parents clean people up, so your analogy isn't quite right.

Now I don't mean that in an offensive way to janitors. If it weren't for them their would be big messes everywhere or we would learn to clean up our messes. One or the other, or things would just be messy.

To paraphrase your statement in simplicity.

The universe was always a mess.

part of the universe was always a mess - just perhaps the chaotic natural way of things - then, as now, some things are formed, others are not.

Genesis 1:2 And the earth was without form...

It doesn't start with a perfect creation out of nothing, it starts with a bunch of stuff that exists without form.

God arose from the mess and decided it was messy.

I don't know that he "arose from the mess"... it's debatable, but I don't think He was ever part of the mess.

God figured out a way to get others help in the cleanup project by organizing them from the mess.

So God and others cleaned up the universe as much as they could.

However they couldn't completely clean the universe because without a little mess there would be no reason to clean. And without a reason to clean there would be no reason make others.

Is that analogy suitable?

He's cleaning us up - we're the project. Making planets/stars/moons etc. etc. wasn't the point of it - we are His work and His glory, not galaxies - it's us, we're the ones being formed, we're the ones everything else was formed for.

39 For behold, this is my work and my glory

[changed]

By that line of logic, would God be akin to someone hiring someone else to do his dirty work?

The person hiring the hit-man is as evil as the hit-man. It's evil to hire out dirty work - and again - God would cease to be God if He did anything evil.

no hit man is needed because the wicked torment/punish themselves.

Mormon 4:5 ...it is by the wicked that the wicked are punished; for it is the wicked that stir up the hearts of the children of men unto bloodshed.

Do you think that Satan likes to pamper/take care of those who follow him? Satan does not pamper

anyone - he enjoys tormenting people, not pampering them. satan is the evil dictator who uses and abuses any subjects he manages to trap behind the iron fense.

27 Wherefore, men are free according to the flesh; and call things are given them which are expedient unto man. And they are free to choose liberty and eternal glife, through the great Mediator of all men, or to choose captivity and death, according to the captivity and power of the devil; for he seeketh that all men might be miserable like unto himself.

(Book of Mormon | 2 Nephi 2:27)

Alma 41:10 Do not suppose, because it has been spoken concerning restoration, that ye shall be restored from sin to happiness. Behold, I say unto you, wickedness never was happiness.

wickedness brings pain and sorrow - that's why it's wicked. Things that naturally bring lasting joy and happiness are good. Things that naturally bring pain and sorrow are bad. That's how good/bad are defined. The consequences of evil are natural consequences, not consequences artifically made by God. If anything God lessens the consequences by occationally stopping people in their tracks before they dig their hold too deep. Would you have Him do anything else?

Do you want God to take away the natural consequences of evil actions? Is that what you want? If He took away the consequences, we would never learn the joys of being good.

[changed]

God calls people unto repentance using natural disasters that people interpret as

being evil, but I think death to God is like the blink of an eye.

Refined in the fire, but thank God we're refined and not left to wallow in the mud.

Do you think you prefer wallowing in the mud? one moment of pain too much for you? Might I suggest that you cannot make an informed choice until you have personally experienced both sides of it. I think God will make sure everyone here is able to make an informed choice. God's a big fan of free agency afterall.

[The_Monk]

One of the problems is that ra' is semantically broader in Hebrew than "evil" is in English. My old take on Amos and the related passages is here.

http://www.mormonmonastery.org/does-god-commit-evil-some-quick-notes-on-amos-3/

[Brenda]

God doesn't create evil directly. He created those who chose to create evil.

[changed]

God doesn't create evil directly. He created those who chose to create evil.

He didn't create those who chose to create evil though...

29 Man was also in the beginning with God. Intelligence, or the light of truth, was not created or made, neither indeed can be.

(Doctrine and Covenants | Section 93:29)

We weren't created... Some of us allow ourselves to be transformed, but we were not created in the ex-Nihilo sense of the word. We are as old as God. God is cleaning up a mess He did not make.

[Glenn101]

Hey Glenn,

Hope things are good with you. I liked your point about us not griping about Satan.. save Christ of course.

Your precursor to that is a response that I have heard within my own faith. Essentially being that evil/good exist in the abstract unless attached to something. IOW neither good nor evil is realized until something is good or evil.

The problem I see arising from such is that like Changed's view, given relativism. That good and evil wait upon the descriptor to actually assign their relevance.

So the descriptor has the power to actually determine what is good and what is evil. IOW, it makes God the determinate of good and evil and removes any standard from God other than what he determines.

or am I wrong here?

Regards,

Mudcat

edit... I think I'll strike that. That made much more sense when I wrote it last night, than it does when I am rereading. I may be getting the cart before the horse on that.

I do not think that God is the determinate of good and evil. He has the knowledge of that which is good and that which is evil, and always has. That was a knowledge that Adam and Eve did not have before they partake of that forbidden fruit.

Glenn

[O-Brother]

Refined in the fire, but thank God we're refined and not left to wallow in the mud.

Do you think you prefer wallowing in the mud? one moment of pain too much for you? Might I suggest that you cannot make an informed choice until you have personally experienced both sides of it. I think God will make sure everyone here is able to make an informed choice. God's a big fan of free agency afterall.

There is no such thing as Free Agency for those who die in earthquakes for example..

[Glenn101]

There is no such thing as Free Agency for those who die in earthquakes for example..

I don't see your point. Free agency is the ability, the right, to make your own moral choices, not where or how you die.

Glenn

[Mudcat]

no one did - no beginning = no one made it. (just like there's no end).

Hi Changed,

Thanks for the response. I suppose this is where I run into a bit of trouble comprehending LDS theology. In that there isn't a distinct beginning at any point. Has to do with this concept of an infinite string of events and so forth. No matter how far back you go, there is an infinity of stuff before it. It is logically incomprehensible.

LOL - it's either the selfless loving janitor, or He's the creator of evil. one or the other . Janitors don't clean people up, they clean dirt up. Teachers/parents clean people up, so your analogy isn't quite right.

Well I suppose it was a crude analogy, but you seemed to pick it up just fine.

part of the universe was always a mess - just perhaps the chaotic natural way of things - then, as now, some things are formed, others are not.

There are a lot of buried assumptions in this statement. Primarily though, "part of the universe was always a mess" is well worth addressing.

First off, I think the statement "always was", is a bit of a misstatement. I mean given and infinite regression of a situation. If part of the universe was a mess then part of it has been a mess for infinity and will continue to be so for infinity.

If I am understanding you correctly, God is simply a natural feature of the non-chaotic side of the universe/stuff/what have you. Have I got that straight?

Genesis 1:2 And the earth was without form...

It doesn't start with a perfect creation out of nothing, it starts with a bunch of stuff that exists without form.

Well wait a minute Changed, I don't want to make a big to do about a very literal interpretation of Genesis, but your assumption based upon your response is from v2 of Genesis. However in v1 he says he made the heaven and the earth. IMO v2 deals with an existing object. Regardless, I'm not much interested in a Genesis debate.

I don't know that he "arose from the mess"... it's debatable, but I don't think He was ever part of the mess.

Let's assume he wasn't part of the mess then. The logic isn't comprehensible.

39 For behold, this is my work and my glory

[LeSellers]

I suppose this is where I run into a bit of trouble comprehending LDS theology. In that there isn't a distinct beginning at any point. Has to do with this concept of an infinite string of events and so forth. No matter how far back you go, there is an infinity of stuff before it. It is logically incomprehensible.

"Incomprehensible" I'll give you, but it is not at all "illogical".

Infinity is incomprehensible, and anyone, be he mathematician or physicist, layman or cleric who claims to understand it is either lying or foolish. At best we can pay lip service to the idea.

But God is infinite. He is eternal. So, that fact that you and I do not understand infinity has no bearing on the facts of His existence.

Lehi

[changed]

Hi Changed,

Thanks for the response. I suppose this is where I run into a bit of trouble comprehending LDS theology. In that there isn't a distinct beginning at any point. Has to do with this concept of an infinite string of events and so forth. No matter how far back you go, there is an infinity of stuff before it. It is logically incomprehensible.

I think the before/after problems arise because we are trapped into thinking that time exists, that before/after exists... I don't think God is confined in time like we currently are, perhaps after we die we will once again enter a realm where time ceases to exist too... No time, no before/after/begining/end...

8 ... all is as one day with God, and time only is measured unto men.

(Book of Mormon | Alma 40:8 )

Do you think God is confined by time?

Well I suppose it was a crude analogy, but you seemed to pick it up just fine.

There are a lot of buried assumptions in this statement. Primarily though, "part of the universe was always a mess" is well worth addressing.

First off, I think the statement "always was", is a bit of a misstatement. I mean given and infinite regression of a situation. If part of the universe was a mess then part of it has been a mess for infinity and will continue to be so for infinity.

If I am understanding you correctly, God is simply a natural feature of the non-chaotic side of the universe/stuff/what have you. Have I got that straight?

"always was" requires time to exist, so it's not the right word... without time things just exist as they are without change (God does not change, things outside of time do not change). Do we change? or do we simply reveal to ourselves who we are? God knows the future, so the/our future is set in stone, set in stone = does not change... perhaps we don't change. Does not change, no time, no such thing as beginning, end... (PS set in stone does not take away our agency, knowing something and causing it are 2 different games, I can know what will be on TV without being the cause of it, we are our own cause = we have agency).

Well wait a minute Changed, I don't want to make a big to do about a very literal interpretation of Genesis, but your assumption based upon your response is from v2 of Genesis. However in v1 he says he made the heaven and the earth. IMO v2 deals with an existing object. Regardless, I'm not much interested in a Genesis debate.

It comes down to bara -

1 IN the beginning God created-transformed-divided - the heaven and the earth.

(Old Testament | Genesis 1:1)

should bara be translated create? or transform? Isa 45:7 uses bara too... God bara earth, God bara darkness and evil. bara = transform... God transforms the earth, darkness, evil into light, good etc. etc... or God creates all this stuff... interpret bara... bara has also been translated: to separate, divide, cut apart - separate might be a better word than transform as transform is more tied up in time.

Let's assume he wasn't part of the mess then. The logic isn't comprehensible.

39 For behold, this is my work and my glory

[mapman]

I think that time is not measured by God either. Time is the dividing up of the sequence of events into regular parts. That would be meaningless to God since he is from eternity to eternity. I do think that there is definetely a before/after for Him though. The Plan of Salvation would not work otherwise and scriptures would be contridicted. To me it seems obvious and fitting for him to experience events in order like us.

[jadams_4242]

Isa 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

Amo 3:6 Shall a trumpet be blown in the city, and the people not be afraid? shall there be evil in a city, and the LORD hath not done it?

Lam 3:38 Out of the mouth of the most High proceedeth not evil and good?

Exo 32:14 And the LORD repented of the evil which he thought to do unto his people.

1Sa 16:14 But the Spirit of the LORD departed from Saul, and an evil spirit from the LORD troubled him.

1Sa 16:15 And Saul's servants said unto him, Behold now, an evil spirit from God troubleth thee.

Isaiah seems to be the strongest amongst these verses that attributes the creation of evil to God. The others implicate that God can do and has done evil.

This word "evil" or "ra` " appears in the OT well over 600 times, with the predominate interpretation of "evil". A breakdown of translational frequency is cited below.

I am curious to see what apologetic responses emerge from LDS on the issue or what LDS think are actually meant in these verses given a broader context.

Within other Christian faiths there have been apologetic responses to such, however the paradigm revolves on the concept of a God who created all things from nothing (ex nihilo).

I am wondering if LDS take a different tack on handling this issue because the paradigm of creation from something is a different perpsective.

Regards,

Mudcat

Me thinks you are quoting translation errors.