Reading Scripture as "univocal"

[Rob Bowman]

Vance,

You asked me to comment on the statement, "I absolutely agree scripture does not interpret itself . . ."

I don't use that particular way of articulating the matter, but this is what evangelicals who do mean by it. They mean that the meaning of scripture is to be found within scripture, not from some supposedly more reliable or more authoritative source outside of scripture. And I do agree with that point.

[Vance]

Vance,

You asked me to comment on the statement, "I absolutely agree scripture does not interpret itself . . ."

I don't use that particular way of articulating the matter, but this is what evangelicals who do mean by it. They mean that the meaning of scripture is to be found within scripture, not from some supposedly more reliable or more authoritative source outside of scripture. And I do agree with that point.

You mean, like the Spirit of Truth?

[Rob Bowman]

Vance,

You had asked me to comment on the statement, "I absolutely agree scripture does not interpret itself . . ." I replied:

I don't use that particular way of articulating the matter, but this is what evangelicals who do mean by it. They mean that the meaning of scripture is to be found within scripture, not from some supposedly more reliable or more authoritative source outside of scripture. And I do agree with that point.

You responded:

You mean, like the Spirit of Truth?

Of course not. The Spirit of Truth inspired Scripture, and so what he (the Spirit) teaches the people of God is found in Scripture. The Spirit is not a separate source of truth independent of Scripture (the Word); rather, the Spirit is the divine source of Scripture and the divine illuminator of human minds, who removes our spiritual blinders to see the truth that he teaches in Scripture and to recognize how it applies to our lives.

Let's face it: What you really mean is not "the Spirit of Truth" but something else that supposedly gives you access to the Spirit of Truth, whether it is his supposed presence in your heart or his supposed revelations through your living prophets. I maintain that neither your heart (nor mine!) nor your prophets (nor anyone else's today) are vehicles for extrabiblical revelations that are more reliable or more authoritative than the Word of God in Scripture.

[Vance]

Of course not.

If that was your full answer, then I would agree with you, but what followed was a contorted explanation that is nearly opposite from that.

The Spirit of Truth inspired Scripture, . . .

Technically inaccurate. It was/is the authors that were/are inspired with light and knowledge and then they wrote it down as best they could with their human and language limitations.

2 Peter 1:20 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.

21 For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.

. . . and so what he (the Spirit) teaches the people of God is found in Scripture.

That isn't what Jesus said,

John 16:13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.

Notice that He didn't say "scripture will guide you into all truth"!

The Spirit is not a separate source of truth independent of Scripture (the Word);

How can you even say that? That is contrary to the verse cited above.

. . . rather, the Spirit is the divine source of Scripture and the divine illuminator of human minds, . . .

TRUE!!!

. . . who removes our spiritual blinders to see the truth that he teaches in Scripture (as well as other ways) and to recognize how it applies to our lives.

I can agree with that.

Let's face it: What you really mean is not "the Spirit of Truth" . . .

No, I REALLY REALLY mean the Spirit of Truth!

. . . but something else that supposedly gives you access to the Spirit of Truth, . . .

The Spirit of Truth gives you access to the Spirit of Truth!

. . . whether it is his supposed presence in your heart or his supposed revelations through your living prophets.

Your really don't understand Mormonism do you!

D&C 68:3 And this is the ensample unto them (authorized servants of God), that they shall speak as they are moved upon by the Holy Ghost.

4 And whatsoever they shall speak when moved upon by the Holy Ghost shall be scripture, shall be the will of the Lord, shall be the mind of the Lord, shall be the word of the Lord, shall be the voice of the Lord, and the power of God unto salvation.

I maintain that neither your heart (nor mine!) nor your prophets (nor anyone else's today) are vehicles for extrabiblical revelations that are more reliable or more authoritative than the Word of God in Scripture.

So, again, you are denying the primacy of the Spirit of Truth in revealing/knowing truth and so you are left to your private interpretations.

[zerinus]

They mean that the meaning of scripture is to be found within scripture, not from some supposedly more reliable or more authoritative source outside of scripture.

I agree with that, provided that you define "scripture" to include modern LDS scripture.

The Spirit of Truth inspired Scripture, . . . the Spirit is the divine source of Scripture and the divine illuminator of human minds, who removes our spiritual blinders to see the truth that he teaches in Scripture and to recognize how it applies to our lives.

I agree with the above, minus the omitted bits.

Let's face it: What you really mean is not

[mfbukowski]

I maintain that neither your heart (nor mine!) nor your prophets (nor anyone else's today) are vehicles for extrabiblical revelations that are more reliable or more authoritative than the Word of God in Scripture.

I disagree.

That raises two questions in my mind:

1- How do you know you are right, or don't you, and

2- How can I know you are right? After all, it is your duty to witness to me that I am wrong, correct?

And actually there is a third one.

What does James 1:5 mean?

[mfbukowski]

They mean that the meaning of scripture is to be found within scripture

This is circular and vacuous.

It's like saying that the meaning of English is to be found in English, which really is not saying anything at all. It's like saying A=A, which is of course true, since it is a tautology, but it doesn't communicate anything.

The meaning of "scripture" is "scripture". So?

[zerinus]

This is circular and vacuous.

It's like saying that the meaning of English is to be found in English, which really is not saying anything at all. It's like saying A=A, which is of course true, since it is a tautology, but it doesn't communicate anything.

The meaning of "scripture" is "scripture". So?

I think what he means is that scripture is the best theological interpreter of scripture. In other words, if Paul says something whose theological meaning is not clear, the best place to go to find a clarification is the rest of the scriptures, which I agree with. It also means that the only way to reliably obtain true Christian doctrine is to be able to correctly exegete the whole of scripture, meaning that one must have through familiarity with all of scripture (which for a Mormon would mean the standard works).