Satan in the Book of Mormon

[mfbukowski]

That is what the vision of the "virgin mother and child" was intended to convey to Nephi. That was the condescension of God. And that is where the tree of life comes into it. It is a representation of that "love" manifested by God in the coming of Christ into the world to humble Himself as the common man, and die to redeem all mankind. Mary basically has nothing, or very little to do with it; and "Asherah" is a load of bull. That hopefully should explain to you why that article is not good scholarship.

I often enjoy your posts, but I am somewhat confused by this one. I don't know what you are attacking- you seem to agree with the point you are attacking.

If:

(virgin mother &child)= (love)=(condescension)= (tree)= (Asherah),

I think it is clear that the BOM contains correctly contains ancient near eastern imagery, which I find to be one more intellectual "bullseye" for its authenticity as somehow "historic", which to ME is very valuable to know.

I am not seeing the problem.

[mfbukowski]

Hello Mfbukowski,

Great question! I believe that there is absolutely an historical connection between this argument and the association with Christ as serpent via the saraph in Numbers 21. I'm actually currently writing an article that connects the saraph in Numbers 21 with the saraph who heals Isaiah in his prophetic commission. Moreover, I've always enjoyed the connection between resurrection and the shedding of skin pointed out by Volgadon.

Best

But then the image of the serpent in the garden as Satan comes in- is this perhaps related somehow to the ouroboros (sometimes two snakes- black and white) and perhaps even to the Egyptian uraeus -- as unification of two forces- good and evil, north and south- a sort of near eastern yin and yang?

[zerinus]

The problem, Zerinus, is that you don't actually explain it. You said you would show why it is poor scholarship then proceed to call the associations false, arbirtrary, contrived, baseless, etc. But you never actually explain why they are false. You never demonstrate anything, provide any evidence or any real commentary. You simply call the conclusions names. I'm afraid the poor scholarship you have exposed is not Dan's.

I had the choice of explaining it the long winded way, which is what you are recommending, and which is not my style; or the short and sweet and to the point way, which was to show the correct explanation for the phenomenon he was trying to describe. Having explained the correct doctrine, the errors of the incorrect doctrine becomes too obvious to require further explanation.

Daniel is a good Arabic scholar. I am not knocking all his scholarship. As an Arabic scholar he will recognize this Arabic expression: ???? ??????? ???????? ???????? I believe it is from the Koran. I copied it from the Net. And if I am not mistaken, it translates as: "truth has arrived, and error has fled!" The best way to dispel error is to provide the truth. Once the truth has arrived, error automatically flees away. No additional explanation is required!

[J Green]

?????? ???????? ????? ??? ?????? ??? ?????? ???? ????????? ?????? ??????????? ?????? ??????????? ?????????????? ??????????? ???????????? ???????????? ???????????? ????? ?????????? ????????? ????????? ?????? ????? ?????????????

[Ron Beron]

But then the image of the serpent in the garden as Satan comes in- is this perhaps related somehow to the ouroboros (sometimes two snakes- black and white) and perhaps even to the Egyptian uraeus -- as unification of two forces- good and evil, north and south- a sort of near eastern yin and yang?

The Ouroboros is more akin to the Hindu cycle of chaos/order or the Tibetan wheel of becoming in that it marks a continuation or the circle of life and its eventual destruction on a grand scale (think Lion King). See Cosmos and History by Mircea Eliade for more info.

As to the serpent itself I think its inclusion in the Garden is not so much a symbol of evil but of wisdom and knowledge. Classically, the serpent has been known as a purveyor of knowledge and wisdom and not evil. In fact, for most of the world the serpent is a symbol of good luck not bad. In the story of Gilgamesh the serpent robs Gilgamesh of the eternity given flower and uses it itself (an exclamation of the seeming eternalness of resurrection and molting?) Even in the Genesis story the serpent is not inaccurate in its warning only incomplete. Consumption of the fruit will lead to a knowledge of good and evil, but also the ramifications thereof, meaning death.

[Facsimile 3]

?????? ???????? ????? ??? ?????? ??? ?????? ???? ????????? ?????? ??????????? ?????? ??????????? ?????????????? ??????????? ???????????? ???????????? ???????????? ????? ?????????? ????????? ????????? ?????? ????? ?????????????

Hey watch where you aim those curses! There are yet remaining essays and finals that I still haven't finished.

[mfbukowski]

The Ouroboros is more akin to the Hindu cycle of chaos/order or the Tibetan wheel of becoming in that it marks a continuation or the circle of life and its eventual destruction on a grand scale (think Lion King). See Cosmos and History by Mircea Eliade for more info.

As to the serpent itself I think its inclusion in the Garden is not so much a symbol of evil but of wisdom and knowledge. Classically, the serpent has been known as a purveyor of knowledge and wisdom and not evil. In fact, for most of the world the serpent is a symbol of good luck not bad. In the story of Gilgamesh the serpent robs Gilgamesh of the eternity given flower and uses it itself (an exclamation of the seeming eternalness of resurrection and molting?) Even in the Genesis story the serpent is not inaccurate in its warning only incomplete. Consumption of the fruit will lead to a knowledge of good and evil, but also the ramifications thereof, meaning death.

Yes, but we have the serpent both as Satan and the savior- Both clearly reflect "wisdom" but it is fascinating how the good vs evil is woven through it also. Even the firey serpent is lifted up on a pole- there is the "tree" again, and satan offers knowledge of what? Good and Evil--

And if I am not mistaken, the Book of Mormon is the only book of scripture which speaks of "opposition in all things". It has to be linked somehow!

[Ron Beron]

Yes, but we have the serpent both as Satan and the savior- Both clearly reflect "wisdom" but it is fascinating how the good vs evil is woven through it also. Even the firey serpent is lifted up on a pole- there is the "tree" again, and satan offers knowledge of what? Good and Evil--

And if I am not mistaken, the Book of Mormon is the only book of scripture which speaks of "opposition in all things". It has to be linked somehow!

I agree and have noticed that as well. Perhaps the Ourorobos was not the best example. There is a print by M.C. Escher, "The Scapegoat" which reflects your words...

While it seems that the devil represents a negative aspect of the universe it cannot be said it acts independent of God. Wendy D. O'Flaherty, in The Origin of Heresy in Hindu Mythology", History of Religions, 10 (1970), 298, states "Everythng is an aspect of God, he is all, and he is ultimately responsible for all. Evil is an integral part of God and stems from him."

Jeffrey Russell correctly states in The Devil: Perceptions of Evil from Antiquity to Early Christianity", p. 58,

"...people feel that God is good and do not wish to ascribe evil to him, they postulate an opposition of forces within the godhead. the opposition gradually is externalized and twinning occurs. The god principle is still the source of evil, but it is now twinned (literally or figuratively) into a principle of good and a principle of evil, the former usually being identified with the High God, the latter becoming the God's adversary. Such pairs are called 'doublets'.

[mfbukowski]

I agree and have noticed that as well. Perhaps the Ourorobos was not the best example. There is a print by M.C. Escher, "The Scapegoat" which reflects your words...

While it seems that the devil represents a negative aspect of the universe it cannot be said it acts independent of God. Wendy D. O'Flaherty, in The Origin of Heresy in Hindu Mythology", History of Religions, 10 (1970), 298, states "Everythng is an aspect of God, he is all, and he is ultimately responsible for all. Evil is an integral part of God and stems from him."

Jeffrey Russell correctly states in The Devil: Perceptions of Evil from Antiquity to Early Christianity", p. 58,

"...people feel that God is good and do not wish to ascribe evil to him, they postulate an opposition of forces within the godhead. the opposition gradually is externalized and twinning occurs. The god principle is still the source of evil, but it is now twinned (literally or figuratively) into a principle of good and a principle of evil, the former usually being identified with the High God, the latter becoming the God's adversary. Such pairs are called 'doublets'.

Thanks for that

And you know I was thinking that it goes on with Eve too. I was in the temple Saturday and when Eve offered Adam the fruit, I was thinking that here we have Eve effectively BRINGING "the tree" of knowledge of good and evil to Adam.

She is in effect herself "the tree". She is the "negative" of the "Queen of Heaven", the tree of life, she is the "tree of evil."

So right there in the garden we have the tree of life, the tree of death, the promise of the serpent who brings life and the serpent who brings death, the male the female, good and evil- the celestial unification of all the spiritual forces of the universe in one place at one time.

And to bring it all home to the BOM, that is the only book of scripture which recognizes "opposition in all things".

[Facsimile 3]

Thanks for that

And you know I was thinking that it goes on with Eve too. I was in the temple Saturday and when Eve offered Adam the fruit, I was thinking that here we have Eve effectively BRINGING "the tree" of knowledge of good and evil to Adam.

She is in effect herself "the tree". She is the "negative" of the "Queen of Heaven", the tree of life, she is the "tree of evil."

So right there in the garden we have the tree of life, the tree of death, the promise of the serpent who brings life and the serpent who brings death, the male the female, good and evil- the celestial unification of all the spiritual forces of the universe in one place at one time.

And to bring it all home to the BOM, that is the only book of scripture which recognizes "opposition in all things".

These are things I have pondered as well, but what keeps nagging at my interest is the fact highlighted by Hugh Nibley essentially saying that Satan can only do one thing and that is to break things down; to destroy. We know that through Christ we can build and increase eternally. Extending these two roles out into the future, at what point do Satan and his followers destroy so much that they run out of fuel so to speak (complete entropy), or does their fate actually resemble more the likeness of a negative number line running into infinity?

Just what kind of opposition will we face as Celestial beings? Perhaps the struggle of our children living in mortality? Who will be their antagonist?

Final Edit: It's probably best not respond to the questions in this post because it will detract from the subject matter at hand regarding the Book of Mormon.