Joseph Fielding Smith

[elguanteloko]

A simple yes or no would suffice.

I cannot do that.

The church leaders teach us to follow the laws of the land in most cases.

If they tell me to obey and go kill innocents abroad, then I will not obey that law.

What you are talking about simply put is not the case in the USA.

I don't know what you are referring to in this comment. do you mean civil disobedience? check our history, it is full of civil fights all over it.

[volgadon]

Actually, why are you wasting time on this board when you could be out organizing a mass protest or at the very least protesting by yourself?

[elguanteloko]

Ridiculous nonsense. The working class will have its own beefs and power struggles and politics if it becomes the ruling class, pure and simple.

I never said the working class will not have struggles, but society will be greatly optimized.

The idea of the purity of one class over the other is utterly absurd the moment we pause to consider that classes are made up of human beings with human frailties.

simply put, what is better: me deciding on your money and property or you deciding? what about 100 people? should I decide over 100 people's property or should they decide on their own? what if I steal part of their property and use it to finance unjust wars, would you agree on your money being used like that? would you use it like that? would a hundred people use it like that by their own will? that shows us why the working class ruling is much better than a few rich business men ruling as is today.

Anyway, Mikhail Bulgakov was a lot more eloquent than I am. I suggest you read A Dog's Heart, or at least watch the movie.

for sure! I'll add that movie to my short list of interesting movies to watch. thanks!

[volgadon]

The Brethren have always supported the men and women in uniform. I love that about them.

I absolutely agree with you. Not only that, but they support members in the military the world over, not only the USA.

That support makes for a huge difference. One of my friends had been conscripted into the Russian army and served in Ossetia. In the Russian army you aren't allowed to even read the Book of Mormon. He called that the blackest period in his life. The brethren understand the importance of lending spiritual and moral support.

[elguanteloko]

Actually, why are you wasting time on this board when you could be out organizing a mass protest or at the very least protesting by yourself?

I thought the topic of the thread was the Church's support of the military, not me. if you have questions about why I write here and my justifications for it, please write me a PM.

[volgadon]

I never said the working class will not have struggles, but society will be greatly optimized.

simply put, what is better: me deciding on your money and property or you deciding? what about 100 people? should I decide over 100 people's property or should they decide on their own? what if I steal part of their property and use it to finance unjust wars, would you agree on your money being used like that? would you use it like that? would a hundred people use it like that by their own will? that shows us why the working class ruling is much better than a few rich business men ruling as is today.

The ruling class as a whole will never rule, that is an utter impossibility. There will always be a smaller, ruling body.

I am a socialist, I'm just not that naive.

for sure! I'll add that movie to my short list of interesting movies to watch. thanks!

Look out for the line about galoshes. That goes to the heart of the matter, if you'll pardon the pun.

[volgadon]

I thought the topic of the thread was the Church's support of the military, not me. if you have questions about why I write here and my justifications for it, please write me a PM.

I was responding to your statement about mass protests. I had a hunch that this was like the artillery-man in The War of the Worlds and it looks like I was right.

[elguanteloko]

The ruling class as a whole will never rule, that is an utter impossibility. There will always be a smaller, ruling body.

I am a socialist, I'm just not that naive.

you need to check more on that history, though. ever heard of direct democracy and anarchism?

[volgadon]

they want you to shoot? don't shoot.

I somehow doubt that you would have the will power not to shoot in a combat situation, but lets for a moment assume that you do. That is all well and fine, you might be willing to lose your own life for those principles, but what about your friends? Are you going to let them die?

You are displaying an appalling lack of compassion for your brothers. That is when socialist rhetoric becomes hollow. The brethren at least realise the value of a soul, regardless.

[volgadon]

you need to check more on that history, though. ever heard of direct democracy and anarchism?

[elguanteloko]

I was responding to your statement about mass protests. I had a hunch that this was like the artillery-man in The War of the Worlds and it looks like I was right.

take me as a hypocrite if you want (although you don't even bother to know me), but I just want you to realize that is an ad hominem and does not substitute for my reasoning which you refuse to think about.

[volgadon]

take me as a hypocrite if you want (although you don't even bother to know me), but I just want you to realize that is an ad hominem and does not substitute for my reasoning which you refuse to think about.

Actually, the point about the artillery-man is not that he was a hypocrite. You need to brush up on your literature.

[elguanteloko]

Even with 'Batko' Makhno there was a small, ruling body.

a few ruling is the opposite of libertarian socialism. anarchy is not just the absence of a Government but it covers a broad range of matters, among those is the idea of decentralized power. communism (which ultimately leads to a centralized power) is not what I am talking about. in anarchy, representatives DO NOT have any more power than the proletarian; they are simply voices for a group.

[volgadon]

And do you have any practical examples, examples of when this was actually carried out succesfully?

[elguanteloko]

Actually, the point about the artillery-man is not that he was a hypocrite. You need to brush up on your literature.

...sure.

[elguanteloko]

And do you have any practical examples, examples of when this was actually carried out succesfully?

one often mentioned example by anarchists is the one carried out in revolutionary Spain. here is a link for much more detailed information: http://www.infoshop.org/faq/secI8.html

I need to go to Church now.

[elguanteloko]

I somehow doubt that you would have the will power not to shoot in a combat situation, but lets for a moment assume that you do. That is all well and fine, you might be willing to lose your own life for those principles, but what about your friends? Are you going to let them die?

You are displaying an appalling lack of compassion for your brothers. That is when socialist rhetoric becomes hollow. The brethren at least realise the value of a soul, regardless.

they realize the value of souls but not the value of life and political honesty. I value all of those. that I would in fact kill when someone is threatening my life does not address my issue of civil disobedience, mass protests, personal disobedience, etc, before you are already on the battle field.

btw, I just noticed I am answering your questions while you are not giving me the same courtesy. if you want to keep on going with a respectful discussion I think it would be appropriate to directly address my posts, don't you think so?

[J Green]

I absolutely agree with you. Not only that, but they support members in the military the world over, not only the USA.

That support makes for a huge difference. One of my friends had been conscripted into the Russian army and served in Ossetia. In the Russian army you aren't allowed to even read the Book of Mormon. He called that the blackest period in his life. The brethren understand the importance of lending spiritual and moral support.

That would be incredibly hard -- to be at war and not be able to read the Book of Mormon. I would struggle with that. I hope he's doing well now.

[volgadon]

That would be incredibly hard -- to be at war and not be able to read the Book of Mormon. I would struggle with that. I hope he's doing well now.

He served a mission and is married to another RM.

At least he was able to read the Gospels.

The support of the brethren is so important, a shame some refuse to see that.

[J Green]

He served a mission and is married to another RM.

Good news.

[thesometimesaint]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_without_armed_forces

All military asks is that we don't send them into battle without it absolutely being necessary.

The military officers, and enlisted in this country do so on a voluntary bases. They are still not responsible for actions taken by our elected representatives. Those representatives alone bear that responsibility.

[volgadon]

If you happen to run across any more items in your archives relating to church history, do post them if possible.

[Vindicator]

It's a mistake not to support those who may or will die in a war. They are military following the orders of political which all US citizens are involved. It's not a mistake to be those ready to defend your country. It's a mistake by those thrusting the military to do what is unrealistic.

Handy,

Unfortunately many forget there was a "Draft" in during the Viet Nam war. Many young men went and served there country unwillingly and gave their life. The LDS church had a deferment for LDS Missions. I wasn't aware until Superbowl Sunday at HMX's house that he was a Decorated Viet Nam veteran. His name is also on a Memorial wall in the town he grew up in. He served rather than going on a Mission. I served after my mission. Too often people with left leaning Liberal ideals never get it until they need to be protected. Great Post here!

Thanks,

Vindicator

[handys003]

so, this means you support terrorism, right? because they die in wars too.

Stop twisting the context of the sentence. No I don't support terrorism as you want to define it. I support our kids. No one wants to kill, or die in any war. However they are obligated to go where the civilian government tells them. They only wish to get a job, and learn a trade, or get an education, all while preparing to defend the country. There is nothing wrong in preparing and willing to defend your country.

I agree.

Good. Then you should have not asserted I was for terrorism.

the problem is they are not defending my country but attacking and destroying other countries for reasons that we would never support.

Let's get this straight. It's not yours or mine country alone. It is ours, and everyone else who lives here in the USA. It is a democracy, and democracies are difficult to run and not perfect. We as a republic have the ability to change the laws on how war can be waged. I don't like the strategy of approach. You don't like as a few others. However since it's happening this way, apparently know one has done enough to convince and change the way it can happen. Now who's fault is that? If you don't like the military complex, and their lobby efforts, or perhaps the Media hype to war then change it. If you don't like the way the Constitution is structured then get out there, and get elected to make changes. Whiners whine, leaders lead, right or wrong, but just get it done, and stop bellyaching about it. You want to be a dictator then employ Hitlers methods, and then you can rule your country the way you see fit. There is no argument when the dictator slams his fist down. Everybody can run the world better didn't you know that? That includes even anarchists.

why is it unrealistic to stop support for terrorist activities perpetrated by our own country? was it unrealistic to not support the policemen that repressed minorities in the 1950's? and what is even worst, our leaders tell us we should support that kind of people... I find that unrealistic, for me.

Straw-man argument. this even more derailment from the thread. You should know by experience now the mods will shut down. However I am aware of the crap that minorities took including my brother and his wife thrown in jail for interracial marriage. Also my wife's uncles who were Nisei in WWII serving in the Pacific and Europe. They would both tell you to knock off the rhetoric as they bare no resentment toward those times.

[handys003]

Handy,

Unfortunately many forget there was a "Draft" in during the Viet Nam war. Many young men went and served there country unwillingly and gave their life. The LDS church had a deferment for LDS Missions. I wasn't aware until Superbowl Sunday at HMX's house that he was a Decorated Viet Nam veteran. His name is also on a Memorial wall in the town he grew up in. He served rather than going on a Mission. I served after my mission. Too often people with left leaning Liberal ideals never get it until they need to be protected. Great Post here!

Thanks,

Vindicator

BTW I should've added those who may get maimed or wounded also. Faux Pas on my part to any Vets out there. I'm also suprised HMX-1 hasn't ripped into this topic yet.