Beans and the BoM

[volgadon]

I'm going to make a bad bean joke straight off the bat, get it out of our system, so we can concetrate on the matter at hand.

Every little bean must be heard as well as seen.

-Erich-Maria Remarque, All Quiet on the Western Front.

The Hebrew for beans is sheu'it (??????).

The word was in use in ancient Palestine during the rabbinic era, in the Mishnah it is considered to be related to fava beans, and quite possibly refered to black-eyed peas, which were known in the region.

The Yerushalmi Talmud provides an etymology.

Rabbi Yonah said: why is her name sheu'it? Because she meshaashaat the heart and walks the bowels.

Yerushalmi, m. Kilayim 1b.

The verb in italics is drawn from the Aramaic shaa, to daub or paste over. It is also related to shaawah, the word for wax.

The implication here is that not only does sheu'it cause gas, it also makes the heart heavy, IE is very filling.

It seems to me that there is a connection between sheu'it and sheum. I'm not arguing necessarily that they refer to one and the same thing (though that would not surprise me in the least) but that sheum was a word applied to some very satisfiying grain or vegetable.

Thoughts, comments, criticisms?

[Sevenbak]

I don't think this is what you are after, but if you boil your dry beans for 2 minutes, then let them soak for a couple hours, and drain and wash them, the elements that make noise are mostly removed.

Cheers

BTW, since Joseph used words like corn, wheat and barley, I don't see why he wouldn't have translated beans as beans.

Also, we've been eating Quinoa lately. It's an amazing grain from South America that is quite tasty. I speculate that might be neas or sheum.

[volgadon]

I don't think this is what you are after, but if you boil your dry beans for 2 minutes, then let them soak for a couple hours, and drain and wash them, the elements that make noise are mostly removed.

Cheers

BTW, since Joseph used words like corn, wheat and barley, I don't see why he wouldn't have translated beans as beans.

Also, we've been eating Quinoa lately. It's an amazing grain from South America that is quite tasty. I speculate that might be neas or sheum.

I'm not trying to make the case that sheum=beans, as that would be entirely speculative. I'm on firmer ground with just the etymology.

I had thought of quinoa, though when I tried to make it back home in Israel it didn't turn out, and I'm usually an excellent cook.

Another way to reduce the 'noise' in beans is to boil and rinse several times.

[Daniel Peterson]

There's a very, very brief discussion of sheum here (from the eeevil FARMSboys) that you might find of interest:

http://mi.byu.edu/publications/transcripts/?id=126

[volgadon]

Thanks. I found this interesting in light of how pine nuts are used in Kurdish and Cuacasian cuisine, they are often ground into a paste!

Other Assyriologists have observed that the ancient Assyrian term sheum was used at various times to refer to barley, grains generally, and even pine nuts.

[Olavarria]

In Akkadian, she'um(pronounced sheum) is barley. The founders of the Jaredite ruling lineage originated in Mesopotamia. Sheum might be a frozen form acquired via Jaredite-Mulekite contacts. However, there is another possibility. In Hebrew, ?????????(she'orim) means "barley"(2 samuel 17:28).

[Uncle Dale]

...sheum

...

Scientists can trace the development and geographic spread of maize agriculture in

the preColumbian Americas. The cultivation of maize (and the technology that went with it)

spread because it offered an advantage over previous food sources and means of gathering.

The fossil pollen of maize can be collected from ancient annual lake bed

deposits and compared for changes over time and space. The actual remnants

of corn cobs and kernels can be collected from preColumbian archaeological

sites, and measured, weighed, tabulated etc. Pictorial depictions of maize

in ancient art can be examined. Any tools or containers associated with

maize harvest, storage, grinding and cooking can also be examined.

Provide the same body of information for Old World food-plants introduced

to preColumbian America and raised, harvested, stored,cooked and consumed

there over the span of many hundreds of years, and we can talk.

Or -- is it your assertion that "sheum" is NOT an exotic plant in America?

UD

[volgadon]

Or -- is it your assertion that "sheum" is NOT an exotic plant in America?

UD

I don't know what it is. Do you care to engage what I have provided?

[Olavarria]

what about "sheorim"?

[volgadon]

Barley is already mentioned.

[krose]

I should think that neas and sheum would have to be something for which there was no English word in the 1820s. Otherwise, surely the divine translator would have provided those words instead of the "Nephite" terms.

[Uncle Dale]

I don't know what it is. Do you care to engage what I have provided?

Certainly -- as soon as you show me some archaeological remains of the food.

If it is native to the Americas, then the Nephites adopted its use from

somebody in the Americas who had domesticated the plant, just like the

Nephites adopted the cultivation of maize from the American Indians.

Or -- do the Mormons argue that corn was brought to the Americas by

the Jaredites, and spread from their colony to the Indians?

Corn -- beans -- chili peppers --- whatever domesticated plants we

are talking about, did they originate with Book of Mormon peoples,

or was the distribution of their cultivation always shared with the

American Indians?

Certainly Mormon experts on the subject must have something to say.

Correct?

UD

[volgadon]

Certainly -- as soon as you show me some archaeological remains of the food.

If it is native to the Americas, then the Nephites adopted its use from

somebody in the Americas who had domesticated the plant, just like the

Nephites adopted the cultivation of maize from the American Indians.

Or -- do the Mormons argue that corn was brought to the Americas by

the Jaredites, and spread from their colony to the Indians?

Corn -- beans -- chili peppers --- whatever domesticated plants we

are talking about, did they originate with Book of Mormon peoples,

or was the distribution of their cultivation always shared with the

American Indians?

Certainly Mormon experts on the subject must have something to say.

Correct?

UD

All, frankly, rather irrelevant to my post. None of the above changes anything in regards to my post. I freely admit that I don't knw what sheum in the BoM was, whether Old or New World, whether grain, legume, root vegetable or herb.

I want to explore the etymology of the word, and its implications. Are you going to engage the evidence I have provided on the basis I have provided, or are you going to level irrelevant criticisms at me?

[volgadon]

I should think that neas and sheum would have to be something for which there was no English word in the 1820s. Otherwise, surely the divine translator would have provided those words instead of the "Nephite" terms.

Good point, though not, I think, insurmountable. Anyway, it is one of the reasons I haven't claimed to identify sheum.

[Uncle Dale]

...or are you going to level irrelevant criticisms at me?

Just trying to set some parameters for your topic.

Evidently it does not overlap the real world of

domesticated plant distribution in preColumbian times.

Since that appears to be the case, then by all means

continue with your vocabulary studies.

But can you answer one question for me? Joseph Smith

had no problem supplying English words for other

instances of plants and animals in the Book of Mormon.

Even if "horses" are really "deer," he did not leave

the word untranslated. A horse is vaguely like a deer --

at least we get a vague idea of what the Nephite writer

was talking about.

So, why do we still need an additional translation of

a "translation" made in 1828-29, for the benefit of the

English-speaking readers of that day?

Even if "beans" was not the precise best word for translation,

why not give us a near relative -- like "horse" is a near

relative for "deer?"

UD

[volgadon]

Before coming to any definite conclusion on what it is, one needs to thouroughly examine the etymology, fair enough?

[volgadon]

Just trying to set some parameters for your topic.

Evidently it does not overlap the real world of

domesticated plant distribution in preColumbian times.

No, you were bringing in a topic which bears little relevance to mine. Both of course are related, but not all related topics are germane to the issue at hand

[Uncle Dale]

Before coming to any definite conclusion on what it is, one needs to thouroughly examine the etymology, fair enough?

Fair enough.

One possibility is that it is a fictional word -- a nonsense word,

like "gobbledygook." We can study the "etymology" of such a word,

and try and track down how it relates to gobbling and gookiness,

and their root words in dead languages, etc.

But, if we here are dealing with a nonsense word, our efforts

will do nothing to help us understand people of the ancient past.

Writing in 1932, George Arbaugh briefly took an interest in nonsense

words -- and even attempted a short "etymology" -- It supplies little

to our knowledge of things; but then again, nonsense words are not

really meant to be informative:

Delawan to chakee poloo Manegengo forwah toloo Chanepant, lawango chapah

Quinebogan hamboo gowah...

The Manuscript Story tells of mammouths, larger than elephants, which were

also called "mammoons."

Ether 9:19 speaks of "elephants and cureloms and cummons."

The transition was: mammouth, mammoon, cumom, curelom....

http://sidneyrigdon.com/books/Arb1932a.htm#pg017a

So much for words that have no substantial ties with reality.

UD

[volgadon]

Except that sheum is shown to have ties with reality. So now that we've laid the gobbeldygook to rest, lets focus on actua etymologies.

[Sevenbak]

In Akkadian, she'um(pronounced sheum) is barley. The founders of the Jaredite ruling lineage originated in Mesopotamia. Sheum might be a frozen form acquired via Jaredite-Mulekite contacts. However, there is another possibility. In Hebrew, ?????????(she'orim) means "barley"(2 samuel 17:28).

Mosiah uses Sheum and Barley in the same sentence to mean different things, so they can't be the same.

[Olavarria]

Mosiah uses Sheum and Barley in the same sentence to mean different things, so they can't be the same.

Ever heard of semantic change?

[Olavarria]

Barley is already mentioned.

There's alaways the possiblility of semantic change

Corn once meant "wheat" now it means "maize".

[Olavarria]

I should think that neas and sheum would have to be something for which there was no English word in the 1820s. Otherwise, surely the divine translator would have provided those words instead of the "Nephite" terms.

why?

[volgadon]

Ever heard of semantic change?

You would need to explain why seorah, the usual term, did not mean barley, changed its meaning and was replaced by sheum.

So in other words, why barley isn't barley.

[Olavarria]

You would need to explain why seorah, the usual term, did not mean barley, changed its meaning and was replaced by sheum.

So in other words, why barley isn't barley.

as for sheorim, im not saying that barley isnt barley. im just saying that its possible that it went through a semantic change the way "corn" did in English. Sheum is a much better match though.