Adam-God versus the Priesthood Ban

[paulpatter]

. . . It could be that the Lord had a reason for excluding blacks from the priesthood, one to which we're not privy. As members, we continue to dredge it up, but the Lord determines both doctrine and covenants in His church, and the answer as to why this or that survived and this or that didn't is unknown. In the end, only the Lord knows.

It's unfortunate--even tragic--that early Church leaders didn't take the position you describe. Instead, they created explanations for the existence of the ban; i.e., 1) Blacks were denied the priesthood because they were of the lineage of Cain; 2) People were born black because they were less valiant in the pre-existence" (see below); 3) ". . .the curse that had been pronounced upon Cain was continued through Ham's wife. . .because it was necessary that the devil should have a representation upon the earth as well as God" (President John Taylor); 4) "There is a reason why one man is born black and with other disadvantages, while another is born white with great advantages. The reason is that once we had an estate before we came here, and were obedient, more or less, to the laws that were given us there. Those who were faithful in all things there received greater blessings here, and those who were not faithful received less" (President Joseph Fielding Smith).

These explanations were actually taught in the Church for many years.

Armand L. Mauss notes: ". . .the Book of Abraham says nothing about lineages set aside in the pre-existence, but only about distinguished individuals (Abraham 3:22-24)" ("Dispelling the Curse of Cain," Sunstone, Oct. 2004).

lllllllll

[Jason]

paulpatter has provided a quote which contradicts this claim. Do you have any quotes from Brigham Young (the originator of the ban as far as we know) that support it?

I said that the ban itself was not racist in the pejorative sense, not anything about what Brigham Young believed.

[TrueBlue?]

[Adam] was made just the same way you and I are made but on another earth. Adam was an immortal being when he came on this earth; He had lived on an earth similar to ours; he had received the Priesthood and the keys thereof, and had been faithful in all things and gained his resurrection and his exaltation, and was crowned with glory, immortality and eternal lives, and was numbered with the Gods for such he became through his faithfulness, and had begotten all the spirit that was to come to this earth.

I am kinda curious as to where this person obtained this statement, and who made it?

[erichard]

I am kinda curious as to where this person obtained this statement, and who made it?

Hi,

It seems to have come from President Young in this discourse.

You can look at other sources of President Young's teachings here.

Richard

[erichard]

It's unfortunate--even tragic--that early Church leaders didn't take the position you describe. ...

Hi paul,

If you read and study what the Lord has revealed in recent years about this matter (for the coming gathering of true Israel) you will see that the matter was more complicated than what early church leaders understood-- but nonetheless they were not completely wrong in what they were saying.

Mormonism is the only faith that correctly teaches that we are all eternal beings, and that we existed as spirits before coming to earth. The doctrine that our lineage and heritage on this earth is a result of our actions and decisions in our spirit life is not only reasonable, but certain.

All spirits are born into circumstances that will best suit and reward their diligence in the pre-existence. How could it be otherwise? For where, how and through whom each are born is in accordance to their works in the pre-existent state.

It will also be the same in the resurrection.

Richard

Seed of Cain

Lineage and Seed

[Markk]

Hi paul,

If you read and study what the Lord has revealed in recent years about this matter (for the coming gathering of true Israel) you will see that the matter was more complicated than what early church leaders understood-- but nonetheless they were not completely wrong in what they were saying.

Mormonism is the only faith that correctly teaches that we are all eternal beings, and that we existed as spirits before coming to earth. The doctrine that our lineage and heritage on this earth is a result of our actions and decisions in our spirit life is not only reasonable, but certain.

All spirits are born into circumstances that will best suit and reward their diligence in the pre-existence. How could it be otherwise? For where, how and through whom each are born is in accordance to their works in the pre-existent state.

It will also be the same in the resurrection.

Richard

Seed of Cain

Lineage and Seed

Hi,

Just for clairifcation, and example would be a crack baby born to drug attacks was less " righteous" than say a person born to a TBM family.

Mark

[erichard]

Hi,

Just for clairifcation, and example would be a crack baby born to drug attacks was less " righteous" than say a person born to a TBM family.

Mark

Hi Mark,

We honestly are not in a position to judge. We could easily be wrong in judging one more righteous because of their birth circumstances. Children often surprise us.

The child born to crack parents may be far ahead of the TBM child in becoming like Christ, and was given a difficult lineage so he could progress even more.

Do you believe that we have an eternal, uncreated "intelligence"? That we lived as spirits before coming to earth in the presence of God? Or do you believe in the Trinity creed?

If the creedal God created us out of absolutely nothing, and has blank check powers to do anything, do you have any idea why such a God would create the two types of children you mention?

Richard

[paulpatter]

Hi paul,

If you read and study what the Lord has revealed in recent years about this matter (for the coming gathering of true Israel) you will see that the matter was more complicated than what early church leaders understood-- but nonetheless they were not completely wrong in what they were saying.

Mormonism is the only faith that correctly teaches that we are all eternal beings, and that we existed as spirits before coming to earth. The doctrine that our lineage and heritage on this earth is a result of our actions and decisions in our spirit life is not only reasonable, but certain.

All spirits are born into circumstances that will best suit and reward their diligence in the pre-existence. How could it be otherwise? For where, how and through whom each are born is in accordance to their works in the pre-existent state.

It will also be the same in the resurrection.

Richard

Seed of Cain

Lineage and Seed

erichard:

Thank you for your kind, thoughtful post; I genuinely appreciate it. You do an exceptionally fine job of explaining your position as it relates to the discussion on this thread.

The pre-existence is, indeed, a unique concept--one that helps to explain some of the mysteries that cloud our minds here in mortality.

All the best to you and your loved ones.

[Markk]

Hi Mark,

We honestly are not in a position to judge. We could easily be wrong in judging one more righteous because of their birth circumstances. Children often surprise us.

The child born to crack parents may be far ahead of the TBM child in becoming like Christ, and was given a difficult lineage so he could progress even more.

Do you believe that we have an eternal, uncreated "intelligence"? That we lived as spirits before coming to earth in the presence of God? Or do you believe in the Trinity creed?

If the creedal God created us out of absolutely nothing, and has blank check powers to do anything, do you have any idea why such a God would create the two types of children you mention?

Richard

Hi Richard,

We honestly are not in a position to judge. We could easily be wrong in judging one more righteous because of their birth circumstances. Children often surprise us.

I'm not sure what "we" judging has to do this?

You wrote..."All spirits are born into circumstances that will best suit and reward their diligence in the pre-existence. How could it be otherwise? For where, how and through whom each are born is in accordance to their works in the pre-existent state.."

Your statement demands that a judgement has all ready been made in that they are "reward[ed]" and " accordance with their works" in "the pre-existent state..."

The child born to crack parents may be far ahead of the TBM child in becoming like Christ, and was given a difficult lineage so he could progress even more.

Again, your statement shows a judgement has been made in that they were "... given a difficult lineage so he could progress even more..."

It implies a reward of a greater opportunity to progress? Your statement also says that those born into a "difficult lineage" has a chance to progress more than one born into a TBM family, CFR please, that is interesting.

Do you believe that we have an eternal, uncreated "intelligence"? That we lived as spirits before coming to earth in the presence of God? /quote]

No

Or do you believe in the Trinity creed?

If of all I hang my hat on articles of faith (creeds), if they can be backed up with what is taught in the Bible great, if not it is wrong, it's that simple to me. Do I believe in the triune nature of God? Yes, I believe there is One God...anywhere, and that the Father is God , and the Son is God, and the HS is God. Now what that has to do with the belief of LDS pre-existence, I don't know, hopefully you will explain.

If the creedal God created us out of absolutely nothing, and has blank check powers to do anything, do you have any idea why such a God would create the two types of children you mention?

Again I don't know what a article of faith (creedal) God is, but the God of the Bible is all powerful, all knowing, and ever present. The God of the Bible is best explained to me as "I am", He told this to Moses and it speaks volumes to His being, " I am that I am. I have know idea other than insight form His word why people are born retarded, blind, deaf or dumb. Remember When Moses was whining about not being a communicator and God said,...' who made the deaf, who made the blind, didn't I? ...' (paraphrase)

Are you saying the God of Mormonism is not all knowing nor all powerful? Who created intelligence? Who was the first God? And, if all gods have to progress to godhood by first being a man, how did the first god become god if there was not a god to " create, fashion, or pro-create" man from intelligence. How did the first man go to a planet to progress, if there wasn't a god to organize all ready existing matter into a planet. BY young wrote that the first born son of god will always be the savior of his world if he doesn't rebel against his father god, how can this be true if the first god if he didn't have a father or god?

I believe the God is the first and the last, and that there is no other, this belief may be in some articles of faith, creeds, or statements of faith, but for me I can know it is true because it is written in Gods word.

Isa 44:6 "Thus says the LORD, the King of Israel, And his Redeemer, the LORD of hosts: 'I [am] the First and I [am] the Last; Besides Me [there is] no God.

So do I know why some people are born how they are or to whom, no, but I know it is by his will and for His "good will and pleasure". I lean on Isaiah 55:8,9 with questions like this and by faith I believe it.

Mark

[frankenstein]

The doctrine that our lineage and heritage on this earth is a result of our actions and decisions in our spirit life is not only reasonable, but certain.

Surely you have a scriptural source for such a claim. And by scriptures I mean those items to which the LDS sustain as scripture during General Conference.

[erichard]

...

Mark,

Since we are getting off topic, I am not going to respond again. You seem to have very strong convictions, and I hope the best for you.

Richard

[erichard]

Surely you have a scriptural source for such a claim. And by scriptures I mean those items to which the LDS sustain as scripture during General Conference.

Hi,

try Abraham chapter 3:

18 Howbeit that he made the greater star; as, also, if there be two spirits, and one shall be more intelligent than the other, yet these two spirits, notwithstanding one is more intelligent than the other, have no beginning; they existed before, they shall have no end, they shall exist after, for they are gnolaum, or eternal.

...

22 Now the Lord had shown unto me, Abraham, the intelligences that were organized before the world was; and among all these there were many of the noble and great ones;

23 And God saw these souls that they were good, and he stood in the midst of them, and he said: These I will make my rulers; for he stood among those that were spirits, and he saw that they were good; and he said unto me: Abraham, thou art one of them; thou wast chosen before thou wast born.

...

26 And they who keep their first estate shall be added upon; and they who keep not their first estate shall not have glory in the same kingdom with those who keep their first estate; and they who keep their second estate shall have glory added upon their heads for ever and ever.

Richard

[Mordecai]

If you don't have to justify the Priesthood Ban, is there really much difference between the two?

I tend to subscribe to a strict view of racial equality that makes me believe the only difference between "races" (at birth) are superficial differences in skin tone and outward appearances.

I tend to believe there are differences in races, just like some families are very different. There have been studies on twins, for example, that end up with extremely similar personalities, despite being separated at birth. I can't say what those differences are, but Joseph Smith taught that people's "blood changes," when they become adopted children of Israel. I look at this as possible evolution due to culture or some type of adaptive mutations (assuming he was correct and assuming I am interpreting him correctly). Point is, Abraham's descendants had some inherent differences that, of course, have spread all over the world to all races... but perhaps to varying degrees. Of course, any person of any race can have their "blood change" by the same process, I suspect... or at least have their children's "blood change." Studies on the brain show that spiritual people have a certain part of their brain that is more active. This could be genetic? Of course, the idea of one's blood changing isn't official doctrine, so this could be completely wrong. Also, I don't mean to say that any race is superior or inferior, as we read in the BoMormon that "black and white, bond and free, male and female" all are the same to Him.

[frankenstein]

nope erichard those Abraham verses say nothing to support what you posted

The doctrine that our lineage and heritage on this earth is a result of our actions and decisions in our spirit life is not only reasonable, but certain.

All spirits are born into circumstances that will best suit and reward their diligence in the pre-existence.

there is ZERO LDS Doctrine to suppot the notion that you espouse. There is zero Doctrine that says anything as to why one person is born in the slums of a 3rd world country and another is not or why one is born into the LDS Church and another is not.

there is nothing in the scriptures that address pre-mortal life and rewards in earthly mortality for "pre-existance dillegence". I am honestly shocked that you would abuse the scriptures in such a way as you have.

[cinepro]

I tend to believe there are differences in races, just like some families are very different. There have been studies on twins, for example, that end up with extremely similar personalities, despite being separated at birth. I can't say what those differences are, but Joseph Smith taught that people's "blood changes," when they become adopted children of Israel. I look at this as possible evolution due to culture or some type of adaptive mutations (assuming he was correct and assuming I am interpreting him correctly). Point is, Abraham's descendants had some inherent differences that, of course, have spread all over the world to all races... but perhaps to varying degrees. Of course, any person of any race can have their "blood change" by the same process, I suspect... or at least have their children's "blood change." Studies on the brain show that spiritual people have a certain part of their brain that is more active. This could be genetic? Of course, the idea of one's blood changing isn't official doctrine, so this could be completely wrong. Also, I don't mean to say that any race is superior or inferior, as we read in the BoMormon that "black and white, bond and free, male and female" all are the same to Him.

Here's the problem. It seems there can only be two "origin" theories for the Priesthood ban:

1. Ancient Source - The ban is based on some ancient "event" that is carried through lineage; thus, modern blacks were ineligible for the priesthood because of their heritage.

2. "Modern" Source - The ban is based on something that made that particular spirit who inhabited a body with black skin and assumed African heritage between ~1850-1978, who had been baptised and was living worthily, ineligible to receive the priesthood (or, for women, go to the Temple). Since there was no discernible Earthly cause (i.e. a black person might be just as righteous on Earth as a similar non-black man), this would have to mean there was some pre-mortal cause that couldn't be repented of.

As I've discussed in my other thread, the absurdity of #2 is that God could have chosen any arbitrary, genetic trait to distinguish the ineligible people. They could have had red hair, or short-lobed ears. God just happened to choose a racial trait that coincided with an extreme racial prejudice at that time.

GOD: Hey, I've got all these spirits who can't have the Priesthood or go to the Temple until Earthtime 1978. I'm not just going to send them to Earth at a time when no one has the Priesthood, or to a country that won't be exposed to the gospel until after 1978.

What can I do to make sure these specific spirits don't get the Priesthood? I'll send them to bodies with African lineage and black skin, and then tell My prophets not to give any people of this lineage the Priesthood (or allow the women to go to the Temple). This won't have anything to do with the extreme racial prejiduce these people will be experiencing in that same society; it's a totally different issue.

Then, I'll time it so everyone that really can't have the Priesthood dies before 1978, but the people that it's OK for are still alive in 1978. Then we'll end the ban, and everything will be fine.

I've already clarified why I think #1 is impossible (population statistics suggest any hereditary curse from Biblical times would apply to all people), so that leaves us to #2, which just works out to be a mess any way you slice it.

The alternate options put forth (i.e. mixed degrees of "not knowing" and "having faith") seem to be exercises in salvaging faith more than trying to explain or understand anything.

[erichard]

nope erichard those Abraham verses say nothing to support what you posted

...

Hi,

I grew up in the church, with people left and right teaching that we come into this life based on what we did

as spirits before we came here. Why did so many get this idea reading Mormon scriptures?

You might read more recent revelation on the matter, that the LDS church has yet to accept.

Richard

[paulpatter]

. . . there is ZERO LDS Doctrine to suppot the notion that you espouse. There is zero Doctrine that says anything as to why one person is born in the slums of a 3rd world country and another is not or why one is born into the LDS Church and another is not.

Richard has--not without justification--probably extrapolated from scriptures such as Alma 13:3 which clearly states that certain priests were "prepared from the foundation of the world. . .on account of their exceeding faith and good works. . .and are called with a holy calling." Vs. 4 indicates that "others would reject the Spirit of God on account of the hardness of their hearts and blindness of their minds, while, if it had not been for this they might have had as great privilege as their brethren [emphasis added]. In D&C 138:55, President Joseph F. Smith, in an account of his vision, states: "I observed that they [LDS prophets and other "choice spirits"] were also among the noble and great ones who were chosen in the beginning [pre-mortal state] to be rulers in the Church of God." Vs. 56 refers again to the pre-mortal state, with the opening clause, "Even before they were born. . . ."

True--and quite obviously--there is no reference to "slums of a 3rd world country"--but there is a clear indication in Alma that those who were not valiant would be at a disadvantage in mortality.

. . .there is nothing in the scriptures that address pre-mortal life and rewards in earthly mortality for "pre-existance dillegence".

Yes there is, as I note above (Alma 13: 3-4). Furthermore, BRM states: "From the time of their spirit birth, the Father 's pre-existent offspring were endowed with agency and subjected to the provisions of the laws ordained for their government. They had power to obey or disobey and to progress in one field or another. . . . . Some so exercised their agency and so conformed to law as to become 'noble and great'; these were foreordained to perform great missions for the Lord in this life" (page 590 of Mormon Doctrine).

Too, we gain compelling insight in the Houses of the Lord.

: I am honestly shocked that you would abuse the scriptures in such a way as you have.

Hmmm. . . .