Viable Nephite colonies

[notHagoth7]

As I pointed out, I waited to see what the bottom line would be BEFORE I decide whether to invest my time into this subject. As you have stated more than once, (using my cheese metaphor) there is no cheese at the end of the maze

More accurately, that's what you and Arc have said.

I, for one, don't care for your cheese or maze symbolism.

It implies a number of unkind things.

but the maze has possibilities and is interesting. To you it's interesting, to me it's not, so I have no more interest in discussing the subject with you.

Thanks for being part of the thread. Best wishes with your screenplay.

If in the future your work leads to something more substantial...then I'm interested.

If you ever want to define what "something more substantial" might be, then I'm interested in listening.

[Jeff_Ricks]

If you ever want to define what "something more substantial" might be, then I'm interested in listening.

Something more substantial would be something considerably more than your stated goal of providing nothing more a "greenhouse for hope - one the might allow faith to take root." When you have something that actually challenges the weight of evidence that counters Mormonism's claims about Book of Mormon origins, then I'm interested spending time discussing it with you.

Until then,

Jeff

P.S. Regarding your earlier questions about my screenplay (and thank you for the well wishes on the project), yes, I did make a lot of progress on it the last several days. Regarding genre, it's a kind of mixed genre -- kind of a Da Vinci Code and The Matrix hybrid that's set in Nazi Germany, and is based on real history, real locations, real historical documents, and real science. I have the first draft of act one complete, and an outline of acts two and three in place. I've been researching and developing various story concepts for years, which was necessary to have behind me to even begin the actual writing process.

[notHagoth7]

When you have something that actually challenges the weight of evidence that counters Mormonism's claims about Book of Mormon origins, then I'm interested spending time discussing it with you.

OK.

:::looks at watch:::

Then pull up a chair.

P.S. Regarding your earlier questions about my screenplay (and thank you for the well wishes on the project), yes, I did make a lot of progress on it the last several days. Regarding genre, it's a kind of mixed genre -- kind of a Da Vinci Code and The Matrix hybrid that's set in Nazi Germany, and is based on real history, real locations, real historical documents, and real science.

Sounds fascinating. Is this your first screenplay? (I would enjoy reading it sometime.)

I've been researching and developing various story concepts for years, which was necessary to have behind me to even begin the actual writing process.

Understood completely.

[wenglund]

I have found this thread to be quite fascinating.

I don't know that I am yet close to being pursuaded, but I am keeping an open mind--particularly since, as intimated, it may prove informative of my ancestry.

Perhaps, though, I am afforded the luxury of open-mindedness because my ultimate objective is a better life, rather than preserving a given position on either side.

Whatever the case, I will continue reading with interest.

And, I am not sure if this was mentioned earlier in the thread or not, but is anyone aware of scholarly comparisons between Tironian Notes and Egyptian characters?

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[notHagoth7]

Jeff,

Here's what I mean. What I'm doing here isn't as one-dimensional as you are making it out to seem.

You're understandably put off by the discussion because of what you've cited above. That probably seems juvenile to you. And thereby dismissable. Right?

Has it occurred to you that the evidence can actually be multipurpose in nature and function?

And that it actually can **and does** challenge "the weight of evidence that counters Mormonism's claims about Book of Mormon origins"?

This is also your heritage. If that interests you, please stick around and continue contributing to the thread.

[notHagoth7]

And, I am not sure if this was mentioned earlier in the thread or not, but is anyone aware of scholarly comparisons between Tironian Notes and Egyptian characters?

I'd recommend this webpage.

demotic > Tironian > Mi'kmaq makes for an extremely interesting vector worth exploration.

For starters, Mi'kmaq is a native American script.

And it does appear to have favorable overlap with the Anthon characters.

[Jeff_Ricks]

Jeff,

Here's what I mean. What I'm doing here isn't as one-dimensional as you are making it out to seem.

You're understandably put off by the discussion because of what you've cited above. That probably seems juvenile to you. And thereby dismissable. Right?

Has it occurred to you that the evidence can actually be multipurpose in nature and function?

And that it actually can **and does** challenge "the weight of evidence that counters Mormonism's claims about Book of Mormon origins"?

This is also your heritage. If that interests you, please stick around and continue contributing to the thread.

Well, see, the thing is, that doesn't interest me enough to want to spend time discussing it. To those it is of interest, I say discuss away. As to challenging the weight of evidence, I'm not seeing it. When I say "challenge" I mean evidence that has the potential of overturning the conclusions of those who don't consider the Book of Mormon credible, and I mean do that now, not at some hypothetical point in the future. Granted, you haven't made any claims that your evidence does challenge to that degree, and that's fine. I'm just say, it doesn't interest me until that is your claim AND you think you can back up that claim with evidence. I've not seen anything close to that yet.

[notHagoth7]

Here's another interesting Mi'kmaq discussion. This time in the context of Celtic and Egyptian parallels.

[notHagoth7]

When I say "challenge" I mean evidence that has the potential of overturning the conclusions of those who don't consider the Book of Mormon credible, and I mean do that now, not at some hypothetical point in the future.

OK. Fair request. In response, how's this for starters?

To ramp things up, instead of doing that in the now, how about I time travel, and do it in the recent past?

1) Within the last day or so, Arc, who doesn't "consider the Book of Mormon credible" nailed his thesis/conclusion to the door trumpeting the unassailable truth that there was no Native American script in the Americas other than the few known in MesoAmerica.

2) A few posts ago, I introduced the Mi'kmaq script to the thread. Native American. Believed to be a form of shorthand. Which non-mormon authors have compared with Egyptian.

That overturns Arc's conclusion that no such script exists. Agreed?

Or did I somehow not meet your stipulations by overturning his conclusion prior to your request?

[Jeff_Ricks]

duplicate post

[Jeff_Ricks]

OK. Fair request. In response, how's this for starters?

To ramp things up, instead of doing that in the now, how about I time travel, and do it in the recent past?

1) Within the last day or so, Arc, who doesn't "consider the Book of Mormon credible" nailed his thesis/conclusion to the door trumpeting the unassailable truth that there was no Native American script in the Americas other than the few known in MesoAmerica.

2) A few posts ago, I introduced the Mi'kmaq script to the thread. Native American. Believed to be a form of shorthand. Which non-mormon authors have compared with Egyptian.

That overturns Arc's conclusion that no such script exists. Agreed?

Or did I somehow not meet your stipulations by overturning his conclusion prior to your request?

I think you know exactly what I mean but I'll try to state it more clearly so you can no longer wiggle around loopholes you find in my statements.

This is my statement: When your evidence has the potential of overturning (now, today, not at some hypothetical time in the future) the evidence-based conclusion of the many who have determined that the Book of Mormon is not credible, then I'm interested.

Good luck with that. You've not done that nor have you claimed that you can do that when you invite me to pull up a chair. Therefore, I have no interest.

[notHagoth7]

Good luck with that....I have no interest.

Thx...(I think).

Best of luck w/your screenwriting.

[notHagoth7]

is anyone aware of scholarly comparisons between Tironian Notes and Egyptian characters?

Tironian is sufficiently tangent to most anyone's course of study that I would be quite surprised if someone has written an academic article comparing the two niche areas of knowledge.

[notHagoth7]

I think you know exactly what I mean

For the record, I was making one more attempt to help.

...so you can no longer wiggle around loopholes...

Hmmm.

[ERayR]

I appreciate the reinforcements.

So far, they're not willing to engage the evidence.

Perhaps they'll be more receptive some other day.

But if they're not interested in their heritage, so be it.

There are non so blind as those who won't see. Nor I might add so sad. Instead of taking a few minutes and addressing the evidence and examining it and offering alternatives so that all might be edified they are wont to tutn a blind eye and a deaf ear. So Sad.

[notHagoth7]

OK, moving forward.

Is there anything that any of those following the thread would like to ask or suggest?

[notHagoth7]

Elves in History

As the holiday season approaches, I'll posit my assertion that the elven traditions in northern European culture have a historical basis, of an actual seafaring people - who came from the west.

Most traditions have a kernel of truth.

For those interested, there is a three-page overview of their origins.

It has considerable relevance to this discussion.

In Celtic tradition, they are closely associated with the Tuatha De Danaan.

Merry Christmas to each of you!

[ERayR]

For the record, I was making one last attempt to give you the benefit of the doubt.

At some point, I'd be interested in knowing whether those following this thread think that's what has been happening here.

No I do not think that is what has happened. What I saw is that you continually asking what evidence they would consider and both JeffK and Arc avoiding the request. In their own overrated sense of self importance they would not/could not address the issue with you but only seemed interested in pontificating about evidence that disproved the Book of Mormon. Come to think of it that evidence never appeared either.

[notHagoth7]

...they would not/could not address the issue with you...

More troubling than that, they decided to withdraw just before the discussion started to get really interesting. Bummer.

Moving onward.

...but only seemed interested in...evidence that disproved the Book of Mormon.

That's why I'm convinced that people tend to believe only what they want to believe.

With the exception of situations where people have been temporarily sidelined.

We all claim to be logical and open-minded. Or spiritual and seeking. Or whatever.

But when it all boils down, we're all flawed people, limited by our own prejudices, fears, and preferences.

Perhaps that's part of what the "overcoming" is all about.

Come to think of it that evidence never appeared either.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think the evidence was the claim that iron smelting didn't exist. A bubble which you were so impolite as to pop.

And then, I guess there was the evidence that no script existed outside Mesoamerica. And I rashly let the Mi'kmaq posts slip out.

Seriously guys! Come on back! The water's fine.

(BTW, did any of you know that elves sometimes have an impish sense of humor?)

[Jeff_Ricks]

No I do not think that is what has happened. What I saw is that you continually asking what evidence they would consider and both JeffK and Arc avoiding the request. In their own overrated sense of self importance they would not/could not address the issue with you but only seemed interested in pontificating about evidence that disproved the Book of Mormon. Come to think of it that evidence never appeared either.

Judas freaking bageezis ERay, I'm not avoiding evidence. I made it very clear that I'm not interested in the discussion if it's doesn't attempt to overturn the conclusions that the Book of Mormon lacks credibility. Why should I respond to assertions in a discussion that's of no interest to me? The only reason I even skimmed this thread is because the title suggested to me that NoHagoth would present evidence that would, as the title suggests, corroborate the Book of Mormon. I think he's admitted that the evidence only establishes a possible corroboration of the Book of Mormon, if further research proves to support his "tentative" conclusions. I think it would have been more representative (read 'honest')to title this discussion POSSIBLE viable Nephite colonies: Possible evidence that corroborates the Book of Mormon. If that had been the title I wouldn't have involved myself in this discussion at all. Why? It's of no interest to me. Now, what part of "not interested" do you not understand??

[notHagoth7]

I made it very clear that I'm not interested in the discussion if it's doesn't attempt to overturn the conclusions that the Book of Mormon lacks credibility.

Jeff, when evidence demonstrates the viability of Nephite colonies in Europe, by definition, that does overturn the conclusions that the Book of Mormon lacks credibility. Because it provides credibility. It thereby demonstrates the viability for the historicity of Nephites.

I understand you're busy with a writing project. Same here.

By viability, I mean "capacity for survival" - both for the ancient Nephite colonies - AND for the discussion of their existence - in the full light of day. The preponderence of European evidence is on the side of historical Nephites...in Europe. Linguistics. Archaeology. Manuscript evidence. Celtic accounts. Germanic accounts. Roman accounts. I demonstrated that region's viability to overturn conclusions with the Tironian issue. An approach that turns Stout's argument on its head to corroborate the Nephite account. I'm also willing to do that with other aspects of Nephite heritage.

The only reason I even skimmed this thread is because the title suggested to me that NoHagoth would present evidence that would, as the title suggests, corroborate the Book of Mormon. I think he's admitted that the evidence only establishes a possible corroboration of the Book of Mormon

That's all evidence can ever do. In a courtroom, the prosecution and the defense both make use of the same evidence. The question for the jury is, which argument most likely represents the truth? People can weigh the evidence and rule on such matters as they see fit. Evidence doesn't force anyone to change their minds...if they don't want to. And I don't see a reason why we should wish otherwise.

I think it would have been more representative (read 'honest')to title this discussion POSSIBLE viable Nephite colonies: Possible evidence that corroborates the Book of Mormon.

Evidence presented here either forms a viable case, or it doesn't. I invite anyone to honestly engage with the evidence and demonstrate how it doesn't. That said, no matter how weighty or extensive the evidence in any matter, people still have the freedom to disagree.

Now, what part of "not interested" do you not understand??

The "not" part. (Kidding.)

Jeff - I wish you a meaningful Christmas. Best of luck with your writing.

[Gary@rics]

NotHagoth7, you have done a good job of carving out a realm of possibilities, an opportunity for creative speculation and wondering. So far I haven't seen anything that I would consider evidence beyond "it's possible," nothing that tells me, "Probably so!" If nothing else, you have opened up a possibility for a wonderfully original format for LDS fiction.

A couple of pages back I suggested a couple of pieces of evidence--things that might actually exist in the available evidence--that would move us from "possible" to "probable." First, I have to verify that I understand your hypothesis, which we are entertaining as the alternative to Stout's claim that the Anthon characters are evidence that Joseph fibbed. I believe that your hypothesis about the Anthon characters is this: Hagoth and other Nephites traveled to Europe, bringing with them the reformed Egyptian shorthand used for the Book of Mormon. That's why the Anthon characters resemble Tironian script, obviating Stout's claim.

Specific waypoints along the path of your hypothesis: Hagoth the shipbuilder, Shield the mysterious king, European languages with non-IndoEuropean maritime words, and Julius Caesar

[notHagoth7]

So far I haven't seen anything that I would consider evidence beyond "it's possible."

Then as far as I'm concerned, that's sufficient. For a start.

If nothing else, you have opened up a possibility for a wonderfully original format for LDS fiction.

That's what President Benson wanted/envisioned.

I believe that your hypothesis about the Anthon characters is this: Hagoth and other Nephites traveled to Europe, bringing with them the reformed Egyptian shorthand used for the Book of Mormon. That's why the Anthon characters resemble the Anthon characters, obviating Stout's claim.

Yes. (If Tironian IS in the Anthon Manuscript).

• Book of Mormon theology associated with Shield.
  
• A new form of shorthand writing attributed to Shield.
  
• Shipbuilding descriptions in the Book of Mormon that correspond with Caesar's descriptions.
  
• Those European language maritime words that are not of IndoEuropean origin being found to correlate with Hebrew.
  
• Plants originating in Mesoamerica found in northwestern Europe before Columbus.
  
• Irish artificts found in the Yucatan. (One has to eventually settle on some physical location. Is there another place in the Americas where one could sail into a western sea and end up in Ireland?)
  
• Significant correlation between ancient characters in American writing systems (especially Maya or Aztec, which inhabited the Yucatan) corresponding to Egyptian.

Very good input.

A few pages back you referred to the evidence you have presented as "testimony." I believe that what you have presented is fascinating and clever and stimulating, but falls far short of being testimony.

Oh. I'm not using "testimony" there in the LDS sense. I'm using it in the same semantic sense as evidence, hearing, jury, etc. A statement from Caesar represents his testimony of what happened. Citing the Anglo-Saxon Chronicle is testimony from that culture. etc. Make sense?

[cont'd]

[Jeff_Ricks]

Jeff, when evidence demonstrates the viability of Nephite colonies in Europe, by definition, that does overturn the conclusions that the Book of Mormon lacks credibility.

No, it does not. Demonstrating a viability does not equate to establishing an actuality. For example, you might establish the viability of life existing under the ice layer on Europa, but you've not established the actuality of life there. Until it is established as an actuality it remains only an interesting possibility. I think we've done enough work to estabish the viability of some forms of life on Mars but we're yet to establish the actuality of life on Mars. While viable, it might never prove actual. If you have established the viability of Nephite colonies in Europe you have not established the actuality of their existence there, therefore you have overturned nothing. When you can establish their one-time existence as an actuality (or even highly probably), then you have something. You're not there yet, are you. Therefore, ERay and others who apparently aren't reading my posts before spouting off about me, THAT is why I'm not interested in devoting time to following NoHagoth's line of reason. It doesn't lead in a direction that's of any interest to me whatsoever. Establishing a viability does not interest me. Sorry, but I simply don't have time to do the homework to participate in such a discussion. The payoff is not interesting enough to me to cause me to commit that kind of time to it. It's not because I'm avoiding any evidence, requests, or issues. There, I've tried stating it in several different ways. I hope that's clear enough. Bottom line: not interested. When the anticipated payoff becomes greater then my interest increases.

[notHagoth7]

For example, if you presented the information about Plato and his comments on Atlantis, would most devout LDS people perceive that as evidence of a Nephite influence? I suspect not.

And rightfully so. That isn't how it was intended. Jeff had asked for evidence of ANY transatlantic pre-columbian contact FROM the Americas TO Europe. So I obliged. But I don't see that as relevant to the Nephite issue at all. It was just a response to Jeff's specific objection/request. Does that clarify?

The more likely conclusion for most people--LDS or not--is that Plato was wrong in this matter.

Sure. Although I am of the opinion that Plato's account, although fantastical, was rooted in a kernel of truth.

But again, I don't see it as relevant to the Nephite discussion.

For me, the Nephites in Europe idea is a bit like that. It makes my heart pound ("Oh wow!" rather than fear) and I see a path of possibility. So far, however, we have walked back and forth between the two sites, looking for evidence. What we have found is that, "Yep, it could be true." But so far we haven't found anything that looks like footprints, at least not to me.

I intend here to simply lay a groundwork. I don't insist on being the one to frame all the walls and do all the plumbing.

I'm willing, but I'd be surprised if other, more qualified people in various fields didn't step forward to lend a hand.

I don't have the expertise in linguistics, for example, to approach the evidence with the methodology that would be respected in the field. Nor would I know how to write up my findings on that matter in the jargon which that profession expects. I can only carry this so far. I suspect that those who feel called to write an article here, or research a topic there, will step forward.

This is just an initial catalyst. I believe it will snowball.

To my eyes, the simpler explanation is that parts of the Detroit Manuscript found their way from Joseph Smith's uncle and to Joseph Smith, leaving the footprints that some of us see in the Anthon characters.

And if some of those same footprints also exist in a Native American script?

And if that script also has some of the same footprints as Tironian?

What then?

I haven't done the analysis this early in the game - just had time to look briefly through the character sets.

Will see if a closer glance sustains the initial optimism.

I'm having difficulty keeping up with all the reading that this thread is producing.

Apologies. I'm working on cranking something out that streamlines it all.

But it'll be later this month before that's in place.

Thanks for your patience in the meantime.

But unless there is something more tangible--not just a possible path but some actual footprints--I will lean toward Stout's argument.

As I mentioned earlier, it may serve as an onramp for some, and a rampart for others.

This is about as much as I can lift at the moment. I have a related project I'll be pushing out later this month. And another in January or February, but after that, I'll probably shift back into documentary and screenwriting work to add the prequel and a few sequels things I've done previously. It ties into Pres. Benson's statement.

Thanks for the interesting tour into history, legends, linguistics, and forms of writing that I had never even heard of.

You're quite welcome.

Thanks for great input.