Viable Nephite colonies

[notHagoth7]

By the way, I laughed at your shrubbery and "Nee!" comment. Thanks for the light-heartedness. Perhaps I am a knight who says,

[notHagoth7]

I agree with your Exhibits C and D, but do not concede that Mi'kmac derives from Egyptian. I agree with you that finding a written American script--one having no basis in European scripts and resembling the Anthon characters--would add muscle to your hypothesis.

OK, then let's start adding some muscle.

Here's evidence of writing from the Old World in America. (Nice work Tiberius.)

This artifact belonged to Joseph, the Chief of the Nez Perce, when he was captured. One of his statements: "It does not require many words to speak the truth."

How does one explain this artifact, other than ancient transatlantic contact? Does it add muscle to the testimony of the Nephite record that an Old-World people could (and did) successfully build a boat and cross the Atlantic?

What does that say for vector A, or Exhibits A? (evidence for ancient Old World influence on the Americas).

[notHagoth7]

Back to the region of Exhibit C - the orange section to which Tiro apparently traces.

This area of the campaign overlaps with the coastal region referred to as the Nordwest Block - a region whose inhabitants are said by some experts to have spoken some language outside the IndoEuropean language family (which would, by definition, exclude Greek, Latin, Celtic, Germanic, and a whole slew of other regional languages.)

Here is the Nordwest Block on a map:

You'll note the considerable coastal overlap with the campaigns of 55 and 54 BC - immediately prior to Tiro's appearance in Rome.

(If it's not clear, the Hilversum region in the above map is where the two overlap.)

Theo Vennemann a German linguist, has specifically identified evidence of Egyptian and Semitic influences upon the language of that region.

This is the same region which produced the seafaring Canna-nefates.

So per vector C, on which we are agreed, we find that Tiro traces to a seafaring region where a Hamo-Semitic language was spoken. A seafaring people. The very neighborhood where the Lombards, the ringleaders in the fight for independence against Caesar, chose to temporarily settle during their eastward migration.

It was Shield whose arrival, rule, and departure were associated with the "whale path."

Someone with the same name as his forefather was said to been a leader among the Lombards. They derive from the same region/people.

And it was Lombards who repeatedly referred to Atlantic ocean currents in their origin accounts.

If you recall, they were the ringleaders in the 56 BC rebellion, which included Caesar's naval battle on the Atlantic seaboard.

Per the linguistic evidence, and the evidence from origin accounts (Shield, Lombards, Vanir, etc.) it was the people of that region which introduced new words, and new technologies into the region in the 1st century BC.

With such added muscle (a nod to Uncle Guido),

and with the Nez Perce's evidence for vector A,

and with apparent Egyptian influence on Mi'kmaq,

and with the various origin accounts,

how are we doing on plausibility for vector B (migration across the Atlantic from the west)?

If not from the west, as their origin accounts specifically attest,

where else did such a people derive?

Behold, I would exhort you that when ye shall read these things, if it be wisdom in God that ye should read them, that ye would remember how merciful the Lord hath been unto the children of men, from the creation of Adam even down until the time that ye shall receive these things, and ponder it in your hearts. Moroni 10:3

[notHagoth7]

It seems to me that most major advances in complex systems (such as writing, ship building, or forms of government) tend to come from multiple contributors. I believe that you are indirectly saying that Tiro had to get the method of shorthand script from somewhere, and that place was his Nephite ancestors in the Americas.

Based on the evidence in the last few pages (Nez Perce, Mi'kmaq, Quintus [Cicero's brother], Egyptian/Semitic language influence on the Nordwest Block, origin accounts attesting to an origin from the west, from across the ocean, the Canna-nefates), can you propose a more reasonable origin for Tiro and his system?

Even if your hypothesis were correct, we would still have the matter of an abrupt onset of reformed Egyptian, beginning with Nephi or possibly Lehi. Where did they get the idea?

They got it from the Old World - and they brought it with them when they left Jerusalem.

Demotic script, a re-formed Egyptian script, emerged around 650 BC, around the time of Lehi's father or grandfather.

Based on Nephi's testimony of making his account in the language of the Egyptians, and Nephite testimony a thousand years later of using re-formed Egyptian characters/shorthand, Nephi appears to have ported various Egyptian scribal traditions to the Americas.

Regardless of how we slice it, our limited subset of Mi'kmaq traces favorably to heiroglyphic.

And our limited subset of Anthon characters traces favorably to both demotic (and Tironian).

Egyptian influence. Precisely as Nephi and Mormon attested.

The three main types of Egyptian writing which existed prior to Lehi and Nephi leaving Jerusalem include: heiroglyphic, heiratic, and demotic.

Based on the apparent scribal traditions within the Lehi/Nephi account, this may account for the correlations some see between Tironian and demotic. And the correlations some have demonstrated between Mi'kmaq and heiroglyphic.

Proposing a Nephite solution doesn't resolve the matter of sudden inception.

I'm not arguing for sudden inception. Neither does the Nephite record.

It argues instead for modification of their writing system, over time:

And now, behold, we have written this record according to our knowledge, in the characters which are called among us the re-formed Egyptian, being handed down and altered by us, according to our manner of speech.

Which is precisely what you were pondering about Tiro - and where he got his innovations.

As with most things, current innovations are improvements upon former ones. The Nephites riffed and improved upon the Egyptian system, just as Tironian scribes later riffed and expanded upon Tiro's. I assert that they present a spectrum of the same scribal tradition - a tradition bridged by a Nephite/Canna-nefate Hagoth/Hadgoth migration into northern Europe in the first century BC. The northern Europe in which Cicero's brother was campaigning in 54 BC, months before Tiro appeared at Rome.

If instead you postulate that reformed Egyptian was evolving and used in the Old World, would it be wrong to expect some traces of it, a highly compact phonetic Egyptian?

Nothing would be wrong with such an expectation.

That is what Mi'kmaq and Tironian suggest.

Something like that would surely be a precious intellectual nugget.

Then once again, here's your nugget.

Behold, I would exhort you that when ye shall read these things, if it be wisdom in God that ye should read them, that ye would remember how merciful the Lord hath been unto the children of men, from the creation of Adam even down until the time that ye shall receive these things, and ponder it in your hearts.

Behold, you have not understood; you have supposed that I would give it unto you, when you took no thought save it was to ask me.

But, behold, I say unto you, that you must study it out in your mind; then you must ask me if it be right, and if it is right I will cause that your bosom shall burn within you; therefore, you shall feel that it is right.

Or as Moroni promised.

[notHagoth7]

To provide visual context for the corresponding vectors/exhibits of Nephite migration/cultural diffusion, I provide the following:

Vector A & Exhibit A: migration & evidence relating to Old World contact/migrations in the Americas

Vector B & Exhibit B: migration & evidence relating to immigration into Europe from across the West ocean.

Vector C & Exhibit C: migration & evidence relating to Tiro's most likely path to becoming Cicero's steward at Rome.

A few visual disclaimers:

1) I depict Vector A crossing the Atlantic simply to reduce/simplify the map.

However, based on 1 Nephi, Nephi's group more likely crossed the Pacific.

2) Also, I don't claim to know where Nephites happened to have arrived or lived in the Americas. So the arrows to and from the Americas are simply intended to demonstrate arrival and departure from the Americas - and are not to be interpreted as statements on supposed American locations.

[Gary@rics]

OK, then let's start adding some muscle.

Here's evidence of writing from the Old World in America. (Nice work Tiberius.)

This artifact belonged to Joseph, the Chief of the Nez Perce, when he was captured. One of his statements: "It does not require many words to speak the truth."

How does one explain this artifact, other than ancient transatlantic contact? Does it add muscle to the testimony of the Nephite record that an Old-World people could (and did) successfully build a boat and cross the Atlantic?

What does that say for vector A, or Exhibits A? (evidence for ancient Old World influence on the Americas).

Rather than infer ancient transatlantic contact, I suggest we consider contemporary transatlantic contact. He had it in 1877, correct? Why does that require the transatlantic contact to be ancient? After all, Chief Joseph had enough contact with people of European descent to be wary of them. There were plenty of transatlantic voyages from Europe to the Americas in the preceding four centuries in ships of decidedly worldly design. Joseph Smith acquired the Book of Abraham papyri years before 1877. We know that Old World artifacts were brought over to the U.S. well before the time that Chief Joseph had this. Those artifacts were viewed with awe, sold, and exchanged by traveling vendors. It's a boring explanation, but it suffices.

Oh, I checked the link. Thanks for that! Some days I need a good dose of raw silliness.

Gary@rics

[Tiberius]

Based on the evidence in the last few pages (Nez Perce, Mi'kmaq, Quintus [Cicero's brother], Egyptian/Semitic language influence on the Nordwest Block, origin accounts attesting to an origin from the west, from across the ocean, the Canna-nefates), can you propose a more reasonable origin for Tiro and his system?

http://www.mondovista.com/harris.book.html

Prof. Harris has a corpus of I20 inscriptions from the Negev of Israel, and about 400+ from the American Southwest. It is indisputable evidence that a Canaanite people speaking and writing a Canaanite language and worshipping the God Yahweh found their way to ancient America.

I haven't read this entire discussion, other than this last page. So I apologize for interrupting.

I have come across these web sites about Dr. James Harris about his some of his interpretations and of discoveries around the world including North America of the:

http://www.viewzone2.com/negev/z.html

"Proto-Canaanite also known by the names "Old-Negev" and "First Tongue." It is the oldest known language and has been found on six continents, believed spread widely by the Phoenicians.

Proto-Canaanite is also known by the names "Old-Negev" and "First Tongue." It is the oldest known language and has been found on six continents, believed spread widely by the Phoenicians. The translation program above provides all of the known variants of the alphabetic system and is translated using about 8,000 old Hebrew, Chaldean and Sabaean derivatives. It is updated frequently by Gary Vey and has been successfully used to translate Sabaean scripts in Yemen and petroglyphs in South East Colorado, as well as recent translations made in Australia and Peru.

http://www.mondovista.com/firsttongue.alphabet.html

Oklahoma

http://www.mondovista.com/oklahoma11.html

The Negev Desert

http://www.mondovista.com/firsttongue.html

Colorado

Australia

http://www.mondovista.com/firsttongue.australia.html

http://www.mondovista.com/alphabet.html

Sir Alan Gardiner (1916)

A major breakthrough came with the decipherment of the word b'lt, (B'alat) by Sir Alan Gardiner in 1916. Gardiner concluded that the Sinaitic signs were created by reforming Egyptian Hieroglyphic signs based upon their acrophonic value. His reasoning has been found to be sound and his work continues to be the foundation upon which progress advances to the present. His early decipherment's are called the B'alat inscriptions (b`lt).

Just south of St. George and on BLM land just across the border and into Arizona is a site called Little Black Mountain. The same inscriptions are found there. The stone inscriptions are high on the sides of hills, presumably because the area had at one time been a lake or covered with water and the inscriptions were near a long ago shore.

Toward the middle, this site has some photos from Little Black Mountain:

http://homepage.mac.com/d i c k lundholm/PhotoAlbum18.html

(the spread out word was censored)

More

http://www.mondovista.com/purg.html - Rio Grande River Valley and Southwest

http://www.dailygalaxy.com/my_weblog/2009/03/did-an-ancient.html

I'm not presenting this very well, so you'll have to wade through it.

[Tiberius]

Rather than infer ancient transatlantic contact, I suggest we consider contemporary transatlantic contact. He had it in 1877, correct? Why does that require the transatlantic contact to be ancient? After all, Chief Joseph had enough contact with people of European descent to be wary of them. There were plenty of transatlantic voyages from Europe to the Americas in the preceding four centuries in ships of decidedly worldly design. Joseph Smith acquired the Book of Abraham papyri years before 1877. We know that Old World artifacts were brought over to the U.S. well before the time that Chief Joseph had this. Those artifacts were viewed with awe, sold, and exchanged by traveling vendors. It's a boring explanation, but it suffices.

Oh, I checked the link. Thanks for that! Some days I need a good dose of raw silliness.

Gary@rics

Except a second tablet with cuneiform was found in Georgia, USA.

http://www.bibliotecapleyades.net/arqueologia/monks_mound04.htm

81.Two cuneiform tablets have been found and deciphered: One from LaGrange, GA and the second found in Nez Perce Chief Joseph's medicine pouch when he was captured is now in the West Point, Museum.

It's also mentioned on this site as #81:

http://www.freewebs.com/historyofmonksmound/entableture.htm

Also, it was claimed Chief Joseph said he got his tablet from his white ancestors.

[notHagoth7]

Rather than infer ancient transatlantic contact, I suggest we consider contemporary transatlantic contact. It's a boring explanation, but it suffices.

Could be. You're right - it doesn't offer evidence for timing. Even if it (and the story associated with it) pans out to be genuine.

But that's OK. I'm more comfortable conceding Vector A to Hebraicists, Egyptologist, and American experts anyway.

I prefer to stick with Europe.

Oh, I checked the link. Thanks for that!

You're quite welcome.

It would appear the discussion here is winding down.

I'll let the thread go its merry way unless there's something someone specifically wishes to discuss.

Hoping this was an enjoyable Christmas thread for some of you.

Gary, it's been a pleasure. I wish you and yours well.

Edit: I've added a new thread on this topic here, for those who want to follow.

[Gary@rics]

[snip...]

It would appear the discussion here is winding down.

I'll let the thread go its merry way unless there's something someone specifically wishes to discuss.

Hoping this was an enjoyable Christmas thread for some of you.

Gary, it's been a pleasure. I wish you and yours well.

Agreed. Thanks for the conversation and ideas, notHagoth7. I'm going to try to make sense of the First Language stuff, but then I'll meander on my way. To you and your family, have a great Christmas season.

Gary@rics