Adam God & the Divine Council

[Markk]

The majority of biblical scholarship disagrees with you. If you want to assert the Bible contradicts them, be my guest. But don't turn it into "the Mormons are just making things up to make it fit their doctrine." That is a lie and a half.

LOL, are you telling me that the Bible doesn't teach that idols and gods are just man made things?

Who were these gods then, give me a cfr of who the people recognized who they were? And don't play the Mormon victim card, this is a "scholar" thing

Mark

[Markk]

No CFR. I proposed a question. The audience is whoever it was written for. The question of whether the text we have is the original, unaltered one presented by Moses to the Exodus generation or not is still an open question.

My question is the one that should guide any historical and/or literary analysis of a text.

And just in case you are still demanding that CFR, later Jewish traditions held Adam to be a god before he ate of the forbidden fruit.

The Bible is clear that Israel went after these gods, and keep going back, and the Bible also corrects that, over and over. You not dealing with that. A theme of the OT is a correction notice to Israel, and others who will listen, that there is but one true God. Nowhere in the Bible is Adam referred to as deity, that is the audience, give me the cfr of the traditions, it has nothing to do with the context here but I would love to read about it? I googled it but only came up with BY.

Strawman argument? hardly. In fact, I rather think strawman in and of itself could be a strawman argument, or perhaps this one is too, oh the mind boggleth.

Anyway it is hardly a strawman argument, as it cuts both ways, not leaving LDS theology unscathed either.

Isa 37:19 And have cast their gods into the fire: for they [were] no gods, but the work of men's hands, wood and stone: therefore they have destroyed them. What do you do with verses like this, is this not a correction notice or direct teaching to Israel?

And the above really is a tired old accusation. The question is how did the original audience perceive it. If the outcome of that is favourable to my religious beliefs, then that is the icing on the cake.

Just to be clear, what is the tired accusation?

Except that they were all different ones. And yes, perhaps they did perceive Adam and the bull god as being connected, it all depends on what symbolism and connotation the latter held. After all, the bull was used to symbolise God on several memorable occasions.

Are the gods of pharaoh and the nations real gods? Is Baal real or Asher,Dagon,Ra,or Horus? Again do these gods exist?

Mark

[Markk]

"then the LORD God formed man from the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and the man became a living being." (Gen. 2:7, NRSV)

Which fits perfectly with the following:

I don't see what is so hard to comprehend. If you have a problem with the scholarship, take it up with Brueggemann.

David's information has nothing to do with the word "formed," "fashioned," or "maker." It has to do with the phrase "from the dust."

HuH, did you read my question to David, he stated that Adam was a deity before coming to earth, my question is basically, how can that be if God "formed him". In other word if the Bible say that Adam was created out of the dirt, how could he have existed before...see Williams post.

Mark

[Zakuska]

HuH, did you read my question to David, he stated that Adam was a deity before coming to earth, my question is basically, how can that be if God "formed him". In other word if the Bible say that Adam was created out of the dirt, how could he have existed before...see Williams post.

Mark

There you forget the 2 creation stories in Genesis. Everything existed spiritually before it was constituted from the dust of the earth.

Thus we read God creating Adam in his image...

26

[WalkerW]

LOL, are you telling me that the Bible doesn't teach that idols and gods are just man made things?

Let us consider what you actually said:

But the Bible is very clear that these gods of the nations were nothing more than man made idols

Of course idols are man-made. But the assumption that all the gods mentioned in the Bible outside of Yahweh are man-made is incorrect.

give me a cfr of who the people recognized who they were?

The Israelites. Information can be found here:

Michael S. Heiser, "Deuteronomy 32:8 & the Sons of God," BSac 158 (January-March 2001): 52-74

Frank Moore Cross, Jr., "The Council of Yahweh in Second Isaiah," Journal of Near Eastern Studies, (12) 1953

Mark S. Smith, The Origins of Biblical Monotheism: Israels Polytheistic Background and the Ugaritic Texts, Oxford: Oxford University Press, 2001?

John Day, Yahweh and the Gods and Goddesses of Canaan, 2002

Margaret Barker, The Great Angel: A Study of Israel

[WalkerW]

HuH, did you read my question to David, he stated that Adam was a deity before coming to earth, my question is basically, how can that be if God "formed him". In other word if the Bible say that Adam was created out of the dirt, how could he have existed before...see Williams post.

Mark

I don't find David saying anything about pre-existence. He talks about God forming a divine king; a member of the divine council over the earth. However, I'm sure David could make a case for pre-existence. I'm just not finding that really focused on in this excerpt. And if it isn't, then your question has absolutely nothing to do with the thread (even though it has little to do with it so far).

Maybe you need to read the entire essay:

http://mi.byu.edu/publications/review/?vol=19&num=1&id=644

[Markk]

Let us consider what you actually said:

Of course idols are man-made. But the assumption that all the gods mentioned in the Bible outside of Yahweh are man-made is incorrect.

The Israelites. Information can be found here:

Michael S. Heiser, "Deuteronomy 32:8 & the Sons of God," BSac 158 (January-March 2001): 52-74

Frank Moore Cross, Jr., "The Council of Yahweh in Second Isaiah," Journal of Near Eastern Studies, (12) 1953

Mark S. Smith, The Origins of Biblical Monotheism: Israels Polytheistic Background and the Ugaritic Texts, Oxford: Oxford University Press, 2001?

John Day, Yahweh and the Gods and Goddesses of Canaan, 2002

Margaret Barker, The Great Angel: A Study of Israel

[BCSpace]

Does anyone think BY's Adam God teachings might be heavily related to this? Do you think Adam/Michael has a bigger role than we are aware of? Did BY have an insight that was not fully presented to us?

Thoughts?

Well, BY taught (erroneously imho) that God the Father is an Adam (Sr.) because He came to earth and by partaking of the physical fruits of the garden, was able to produce children with Eve (Sr.). Those children are the Adam and Eve who partook of the forbidden fruit and fell. So perhaps Adam is not a God in the sense given here (at least not yet), but I don't think that would preclude him from "the council of Gods" at any point prior to that.

[Markk]

I don't find David saying anything about pre-existence. He talks about God forming a divine king; a member of the divine council over the earth. However, I'm sure David could make a case for pre-existence. I'm just not finding that really focused on in this excerpt. And if it isn't, then your question has absolutely nothing to do with the thread (even though it has little to do with it so far).

Maybe you need to read the entire essay:

http://mi.byu.edu/publications/review/?vol=19&num=1&id=644

I did read through it, I googled it before I responded in my first post.

David said..."the Bible describes the first man as a deified member of the divine council" And he said BY may have been inspired by this but took it to far...so yest Walker this certainly implies very clearly that Adam pre-existed before coming to earth, that is what the context of the paper is meant to imply, I suggest a re-read. Remember my question to David..."Formed", you don't seem to want to discuss this word and what it means?

Where do you believe the Bible describes Adam as a deified member of a council?

Mark

[WalkerW]

I'm talking about the gods themselves, who were and are they real gods?

In LDS belief, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost are three separate divine beings. In ancient Israelite theology, El and Yahweh were seen as separate deities, with El being the chief, father god and Yahweh being his son.

do you believe that Baal, and Ra are real gods?

I doubt it. Baal seems to be the Ugaritic version of Yahweh.

Who are these gods that are not man made?

That is seriously your question? What is the name of the different gods? How is the names significant in any way, shape, or form?

What we are talking about is whether or not Israel believed in a divine council of gods, which they did. I've already stated that Yahweh and El were seen as separate gods. This can be found in most of the references I provided. Asherah was also seen as a mother goddess. See William G. Dever, Did God Have a Wife?: Archaeology and Folk Religion in Ancient Israel, 2005

Sidenote - More info on Adam: http://www.fairlds.org/FAIR_Conferences/2006_Adam_in_Ancient_Texts_and_the_Restoration.html

[Markk]

Well, BY taught (erroneously imho) that God the Father is an Adam (Sr.) because He came to earth and by partaking of the physical fruits of the garden, was able to produce children with Eve (Sr.). Those children are the Adam and Eve who partook of the forbidden fruit and fell. So perhaps Adam is not a God in the sense given here (at least not yet), but I don't think that would preclude him from "the council of Gods" at any point prior to that.

BY taught that Adam is the father of mans spirit and the only god man should have anything to do with.

Mark

[WalkerW]

I did read through it, I googled it before I responded in my first post.

David said..."the Bible describes the first man as a deified member of the divine council" And he said BY may have been inspired by this but took it to far...so yest Walker this certainly implies very clearly that Adam pre-existed before coming to earth, that is what the context of the paper is meant to imply, I suggest a re-read. Remember my question to David..."Formed", you don't seem to want to discuss this word and what it means?

Where do you believe the Bible describes Adam as a deified member of a council?

Mark

"Formed" means "fashioned." This is not a moment of creatio ex nihilo. I provided a link to more info on Adam. But here is another interesting piece:

"Rabbi Simai used to say, 'Both the soul and body of creatures created from heaven are from heaven. Both the soul and body of creatures created from earth are from earth, except for man, whose soul is from heaven and body is from earth. Therefore if a man fulfills Torah and the desire of his Father in heaven he is like the heavenly creatures as it says, 'I said 'You are gods and sons of the most high all of you' (Ps. 82:6)." - Sifre Devarim 306 (3rd century AD; emphasis mine)

[WalkerW]

Where do you believe the Bible describes Adam as a deified member of a council?

Right there in Genesis due to the many ancient Near East parallels. David explains this very thoroughly.

[Markk]

In LDS belief, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost are three separate divine beings

OK

El and Yahweh were seen as separate deities, with El being the chief, father god and Yahweh being his son.

OK

Were these real gods?

What we are talking about is whether or not Israel believed in a divine council of gods, which they did. I've already stated that Yahweh and El were seen as separate gods. This can be found in most of the references I provided. Asherah was also seen as a mother goddess. See William G. Dever, Did God Have a Wife?: Archaeology and Folk Religion in Ancient Israel, 2005

Then are these real gods, or are they false gods of the nations. What do you believe walker?

Israel believed in many false gods, and God punished them for this, again and again, we don't need books written by me to tell us that, read Isaiah or Genesis, what your failing to acknowledge or even discuss is the instruction by God that these Gods were false and that He alone is the one true God.

Do you believe that any of Egypt's gods are real?

Mark

[WalkerW]

This should be worth considering in regards to "who are the other gods?":

"In the Old Testament there appears the concept of Yahweh

[BCSpace]

Well, BY taught (erroneously imho) that God the Father is an Adam (Sr.) because He came to earth and by partaking of the physical fruits of the garden, was able to produce children with Eve (Sr.). Those children are the Adam and Eve who partook of the forbidden fruit and fell. So perhaps Adam is not a God in the sense given here (at least not yet), but I don't think that would preclude him from "the council of Gods" at any point prior to that.

BY taught that Adam is the father of mans spirit and the only god man should have anything to do with.

He did. But that was in the context of Adam Sr (God the Father) not Adam Jr. I happen to like Elden Watson's view of BY writings mentioned in this FAIRWIKI article since I independently came to almost the same conclusions before I had heard of his work.

[Markk]

Right there in Genesis due to the many ancient Near East parallels. David explains this very thoroughly.

So you interpret the Bible by near eastern extra biblical parallels, even when the contradict the context of the Bible?

[Markk]

He did. But that was in the context of Adam Sr (God the Father) not Adam Jr. I happen to like Elden Watson's view of BY writings mentioned in this FAIRWIKI article since I independently came to almost the same conclusions before I had heard of his work.

When did BY talk about Adam sr and Adam Jr?

Mark

[WalkerW]

Then are these real gods, or are they false gods of the nations. What do you believe walker?

Apparently, you are no longer interested in what ancient Israel believed (that was what we were talking about: what the original audience believed), but my personal beliefs.

Obviously, I believe the Father and Son are separate, distinct deities. The idea of El, the chief, father god over his son Yahweh resonates very well with me. I also believe there is a heavenly mother. The idea of Asherah also sits well with me, though information on Asherah is limited.

Israel believed in many false gods

This research doesn't deal with Israel's apostasy or idolatry. It deals with their original beliefs.

read Isaiah

Read Heiser and Cross on that one. Isaiah isn't strictly monotheistic.

or Genesis

The Genesis that states "let us make man in our image?" Interesting...

what your failing to acknowledge or even discuss is the instruction by God that these Gods were false and that He alone is the one true God.

What you are failing to do is do some actual research. You'd rather make naked assertions and expect us to take you seriously.

Do you believe that any of Egypt's gods are real?

Quit acting like a child.

[WalkerW]

So you interpret the Bible by near eastern extra biblical parallels, even when the contradict the context of the Bible?

The Near East culture contradicts the "context of the Bible?"

I certainly hope you realize how stupid of a question this is.

"It has been all too easy for sola scriptura scholars to dismiss [esoteric teachings and traditions], and then find themselves constructing theological positions which are not even biblical, because they have ignored the environing traditions which could have illuminated the meaning of the biblical texts." (Margaret Barker, "Temple and Liturgy," Lambeth Palace, June 2009)

[WalkerW]

When did BY talk about Adam sr and Adam Jr?

Mark

Read the article before asking questions. Then make specific arguments against it.

[Markk]

This should be worth considering in regards to "who are the other gods?":

"In the Old Testament there appears the concept of Yahweh

[BCSpace]

When did BY talk about Adam sr and Adam Jr?

He did not use those particular terms but he did distinguish between the two. Assuming also that BY also believed the doctrine of the Church, it is impossible for BY to be referring to Adam (Michael) as God the Father. I suggest you read the article associated with the reference I gave.

[Markk]

Read the article before asking questions. Then make specific arguments against it.

I have, my question still stands. If you know al this stuff why don't you just discuss it?

[Markk]

He did not use those particular terms but he did distinguish between the two. Assuming also that BY also believed the doctrine of the Church, it is impossible for BY to be referring to Adam (Michael) as God the Father. I suggest you read the article associated with the reference I gave.

I have, and it is a attempt to for lack of better words, to save face for BY and the office of the prophet. I've talked to LDS members who wouldn't even attempt to use it as an argument.

Mar