The Revelation at Mount Sinai (TORAH)

[Uncle Dale]

...

The LXX is what we have. Ptolemy did not force any Jews to translate

for him, this is merely a pretty legend. It seems rather that the

LXX was translated in behalf of the Alexandrine Jewish community

for their own use.

This is my own understanding as well -- though the Macedonian

monarchy must have had some role in allowing such a development

in that Hellenistic society.

On the other hand, I am not so certain that the LXX text we have

in our hands today is exactly what the Judeans of 2000 years ago

had in their hands. What assurance do we have that the earliest

extant manuscripts are the same as the originals? Are there not

variant passages cited by some early Church Fathers?

UD

[Zakuska]

That's nonsense. The text says: shema yisrael adonai eloheinu adonai echad (God is one).

Echad does not necessarily mean numerically "one".

The same word is used in this verse...

Gen 2

24 Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be one flesh.

Do husband and wife meld into "one" hypostasis? NO.

The gist of the Shema is that God is a plurlity in unity.

[volgadon]

This is my own understanding as well -- though the Macedonian

monarchy must have had some role in allowing such a development

in that Hellenistic society.

On the other hand, I am not so certain that the LXX text we have

in our hands today is exactly what the Judeans of 2000 years ago

had in their hands. What assurance do we have that the earliest

extant manuscripts are the same as the originals? Are there not

variant passages cited by some early Church Fathers?

UD

I don't know that the Macedonian monarchy really had much of a role in it, purely an internal affair, though I suspect that the Jewish community wanted to be able to debate the merits of their religion on equal terms with the Greeks.

I think the torah portion of the LXX is more or less it, after all, when things were hand-copied, variants were bound to creep in.

[Thorkyll]

Echad does not necessarily mean numerically "one".

The same word is used in this verse...

Gen 2

24 Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be one flesh.

Do husband and wife meld into "one" hypostasis? NO.

The gist of the Shema is that God is a plurlity in unity.

Yes, Adam and Eve were rejoined together as one essence (they are one soul, two bodies). Anyway, it is talking about her conceiving children, wherein their flesh came together to create one flesh. Genesis 2:24 is most definitely saying "one flesh", in the numerical sense.

"And God created the original human in His image; in the image of God He created the human; male and female He created them."

(Genesis 1:27)

[volgadon]

What one flesh means is that they are now members of the same family.

[LeSellers]

Yes, Adam and Eve were rejoined together as one essence (they are one soul, two bodies). Anyway, it is talking about her conceiving children, wherein their flesh came together to create one flesh. Genesis 2:24 is most definitely saying "one flesh", in the numerical sense.

Yes, indeed.

What? know ye not that he which is joined to an harlot is one body? for two, saith he, shall be one flesh.

However, this hardly supports your contention. For even though the two, whether married to each other or not, according to Paul, become one flesh, they are neither one body nor one person.

Lehi

[Thorkyll]

The revelation at Sinai is not called Torah, it is called MATAN TORAH. Genesis 1:27

The Torah is that which was received at Choreb, so I've no idea why you're picking on my choice of words.

The theology recieved was political in nature, echoing vassalship treaties and pledges of fealty to earthly rulers.

It does not require you to believe that there is only one god (much of the rhetoric in the Bible becomes somewhat pointless if one does) but that you will worship and serve but one god.

Much the same as what Paul said about gods and lords many.

The Torah (written) says time and time again: there is none else, there is no other god beside me.

Maklelan can claim this is God showing off about how big he is, but all he has done so far is quote a pagan goddess from Isaiah to somehow prove that the same phrase in Deuteronomy and elsewhere is meant as a boast of being the most important. I think that's pretty weak evidence.

I'm from Israel and know many religious Jews who have no problem with that concept, their attitude is rather one of I don't really care if there are any other Gods, I worship the Lord.

By "religious Jews" what exactly are you talking about here? Reform??!

1. I believe with perfect faith that G-d is the Creator and Ruler of all things. He alone has made, does make, and will make all things. 2. I believe with perfect faith that G-d is One. There is no unity that is in any way like His. He alone is our G-d He was, He is, and He will be.

3. I believe with perfect faith that G-d does not have a body. physical concepts do not apply to Him. There is nothing whatsoever that resembles Him at all.

4. I believe with perfect faith that G-d is first and last.

Jewish legends and folk traditions are full of echoes of there having been more than one God.

Anyway, shema Israel is my favourite anti-trinitarian scripture, because no matter how you look at it, Jehovah is one Jehovah.

The LXX is what we have. Ptolemy did not force any Jews to translate for him, this is merely a pretty legend. It seems rather that the LXX was translated in behalf of the Alexandrine Jewish community for their own use.

Prove it.

[Thorkyll]

Yes, indeed.

However, this hardly supports your contention. For even though the two, whether married to each other or not, according to Paul, become one flesh, they are neither one body nor one person.

Lehi

Since when was the Paul an authority on marriage? My impression of him is that he was a homosexual.

The husband and wife were originally one soul which was seperated into two bodies.

This is where the concept of soul mates comes from.

But I agree, this is irrelevant and doesn't prove anything about God.

The point is that "echad" means "one" and has the exact same uses as the English word "one".

[Thorkyll]

This is my own understanding as well -- though the Macedonian

monarchy must have had some role in allowing such a development

in that Hellenistic society.

On the other hand, I am not so certain that the LXX text we have

in our hands today is exactly what the Judeans of 2000 years ago

had in their hands. What assurance do we have that the earliest

extant manuscripts are the same as the originals? Are there not

variant passages cited by some early Church Fathers?

UD

I think it's somewhere in the Talmud. The "Church Fathers" were in on the scam.

The day these Jews were FORCED (yes, FORCED) to translate the Chumash into Greek

has actually come down as a day of mourning in Judaism. As for the Septuagint version

of the Prophets and Writings, it's anybody's guess who translated that, because the

Jews who were forced to translate for Ptolemy II only translated the Five Books of Moses.

[volgadon]

The Torah is that which was received at Choreb, so I've no idea why you're picking on my choice of words.

Because you put torah in brackets.

The Torah (written) says time and time again: there is none else, there is no other god beside me.

It also says thou shalt have no other gods before me, bit redundant if there aren't any, isn't it?

Was the man who wrote who is like you among the gods merely wasting good parchment?

Maklelan can claim this is God showing off about how big he is, but all he has done so far is quote a pagan goddess from Isaiah to somehow prove that the same phrase in Deuteronomy and elsewhere is meant as a boast of being the most important. I think that's pretty weak evidence.

Seeing as it is a different language and a different mindset from a time far removed from our own, similar occurences are vital in gaining an understanding of the meaning. It is a very good piece of evidence. Or do you have no idea how ancient texts are studied?

By "religious Jews" what exactly are you talking about here? Reform??!

Reform? I know very few reform Jews in Israel. Nearly all of those I know are orthodox. I garauntee that I know more of them than you, unless, that is, you happen to live in Brooklyn. =)

Prove it.

Prove what, all three points?

Ok.

1) an example is found in the midrash on the 10 commandments.

2) self-evident.

3) even assuming that the tale told by Aristeas is true, there is not a hint of force or coercion. On the contrary, Ptolemy paid a hefty sum for it. As to scholarship, the late Gedalya Alon led the way. I can't give you a page number, I only have it in Hebrew and Russian.

[Uncle Dale]

...

The day these Jews were FORCED (yes, FORCED) to translate the Chumash into Greek

...

No doubt some people were even forced to learn Greek.

Why on earth would God's people learn a pagan language?

So as to better serve their Seleucid and Roman lords?

Sounds to me like somebody took a wrong step at about

the time the last Davidic prince died.

UD

[volgadon]

I think it's somewhere in the Talmud. The "Church Fathers" were in on the scam.

The day these Jews were FORCED (yes, FORCED) to translate the Chumash into Greek

has actually come down as a day of mourning in Judaism. As for the Septuagint version

of the Prophets and Writings, it's anybody's guess who translated that, because the

Jews who were forced to translate for Ptolemy II only translated the Five Books of Moses.

Can you back any of this up?

FYI, the information in wikipedia about the elders being forced to tranlsate is erroneous, as you would have discovered had you but checked the source.

A later sage declared that the day the LXX was translated should be a day of mourning because the sacred nature did not allow it to be translated as it ought to be, but this reflects a latter attitude, easily explained by a look at the history of the Jews as well as the teachings of r. Akiva who held that every word, every letter, even every article, was significant. It is hard to do a pardes exegesis in any language but Hebrew.

They still held though that it was produced miraculously, with God's intervention.

The 8th of Tevet is one of those days of mourning which doesn't seem too have been commemorated in practice.

BTW, are you deriding the scriptures used and quoted by the Evangelists?

I wonder how well that will go down with the CARMites.

[volgadon]

I ought to clarify that the source for the statement about the day of mourning is found in the tractate sopherim (scribes), one of the minor tractates and not part of the talmud proper. This one, sopherim, is an 8th century Gaonic product. Most rabbis are of that opinion, not just secular scholars.

[maklelan]

I think it's somewhere in the Talmud. The "Church Fathers" were in on the scam.

The day these Jews were FORCED (yes, FORCED) to translate the Chumash into Greek

has actually come down as a day of mourning in Judaism. As for the Septuagint version

of the Prophets and Writings, it's anybody's guess who translated that, because the

Jews who were forced to translate for Ptolemy II only translated the Five Books of Moses.

What on earth are you reading? This has nothing to do with history. The Septuagint was translated by Jews in Alexandria for Jews in Alexandria of their own volition. No one forced anyone to translate a thing. Why on earth would Hellenistic leaders force Jews to translate the Torah into Greek?

[volgadon]

What on earth are you reading?

Wikipedia, I suspect.

[volgadon]

I just remembered that the reading of one of the Qumran copies of Deuteronomy 32:8 (4QDEUTj) is very close to that of the LXX's.

Page 191 of Abbeg, Flint and Uhlrich's The Dead Sea Scrolls Bible in case anyone would care to look it up for themselves.

[Zakuska]

Yes, Adam and Eve were rejoined together as one essence (they are one soul, two bodies). Anyway, it is talking about her conceiving children, wherein their flesh came together to create one flesh. Genesis 2:24 is most definitely saying "one flesh", in the numerical sense.

Other examples of Echad representing a plurality in unity... and not the Numeral 1.

Genesis 11

1 And the whole earth was of one language, and of one speech.

2 And it came to pass, as they journeyed from the east, that they found a plain in the land of Shinar; and they dwelt there.

3 And they said one to another, Go to, let us make brick, and burn them throughly. And they had brick for stone, and slime had they for morter.

4 And they said, Go to, let us build us a city and a tower, whose top may reach unto heaven; and let us make us a name, lest we be scattered abroad upon the face of the whole earth.

5 And the Lord came down to see the city and the tower, which the children of men builded.

6 And the Lord said, Behold, the people is one, and they have all one language; and this they begin to do: and now nothing will be restrained from them, which they have imagined to do.

There are many more I could share.

Echad is also often rendered as 1st (first), an example:

Gen 8:13

And it came to pass in the six 8337 hundredth 3967 and first year 8141, in the first 7223 [month], the first 259 [day] of the month 2320, the waters 4325 were dried up 2717 from off the earth 776: and Noah 5146 removed 5493 the covering 4372 of the ark 8392, and looked 7200 , and, behold, the face 6440 of the ground 127 was dry 2717 .

So keeping this definition in mind as well as the "First" of the ten commandments to have no other Gods "Before" God the Shema prayer could just as easily be rendered.

"Hear O Israel. The Lord our God is first"

Isn't Christ said to be the "ALPHA" and Omega?

[Zakuska]

If he isn't God, who is this "yahweh" guy?

Apparently not the God of Israel. We read in Genesis 33 about Jacob settling in a town of Canaan called Shalem. He builds an Altar and names it...

Gen 33

18

[WalkerW]

Yes, Adam and Eve were rejoined together as one essence (they are one soul, two bodies).

There is no mention of "essence" here. Actually, there is no mention of "one essence" anywhere, which makes the metaphysical aspects of the Trinity without merit.

[WalkerW]

Maklelan can claim this is God showing off

Ignoring your oversimplified "showing off," Maklelan isn't alone. And demonstrated this.

all he has done so far is quote a pagan goddess from Isaiah to somehow prove that the same phrase in Deuteronomy and elsewhere is meant as a boast of being the most important.

You assume that this means Yahweh is "boasting." Babylon was boasting. Yahweh was stating a fact.

I think that's pretty weak evidence.

Oh, yes. The same exact phrase used elsewhere is "pretty weak evidence." Same phrasing is actually very strong evidence.

[WalkerW]

The point is that "echad" means "one" and has the exact same uses as the English word "one".

Good thing the Enlgish "one" isn't always numerical. If you were wanting "only one," yachid would be a better choice. I've already provided a source on this.

[LeSellers]

Yes, Adam and Eve were rejoined together as one essence (they are one soul, two bodies). Anyway, it is talking about her conceiving children, wherein their flesh came together to create one flesh. Genesis 2:24 is most definitely saying "one flesh", in the numerical sense.

Yes, indeed.

What? know ye not that he which is joined to an harlot is one body? for two, saith he, shall be one flesh.

However, this hardly supports your contention. For even though the two, whether married to each other or not, according to Paul, become one flesh, they are neither one body nor one person.

Since when was the Paul an authority on marriage?

He was an Apostle, was he not?

Even were this not the case, he was the I version of Bruce R. M^cConkie, rather a noted scriptorian and prolific writer.

When he said "for two, saith he, shall be one flesh," he was quoting (or paraphrasing) God from the Old Testament.

My impression of him is that he was a homosexual.

I'm sure many here will take offense at that. There is nothing in the Bible that indicates anything of the sort. I'd like to review your reasoning on the matter.

The husband and wife were originally one soul which was seperated into two bodies.

This is where the concept of soul mates comes from.

When were they separated?

In all cases, men and the women they marry are born as separate individuals.

The one seeming exception was Adam and Eve, but their "births" were also at dfferent times. Even if we were to see Eve as Adam's doppleg

[Thorkyll]

Can you back any of this up?

FYI, the information in wikipedia about the elders being forced to tranlsate is erroneous, as you would have discovered had you but checked the source.

A later sage declared that the day the LXX was translated should be a day of mourning because the sacred nature did not allow it to be translated as it ought to be, but this reflects a latter attitude, easily explained by a look at the history of the Jews as well as the teachings of r. Akiva who held that every word, every letter, even every article, was significant. It is hard to do a pardes exegesis in any language but Hebrew.

They still held though that it was produced miraculously, with God's intervention.

The 8th of Tevet is one of those days of mourning which doesn't seem too have been commemorated in practice.

BTW, are you deriding the scriptures used and quoted by the Evangelists?

I wonder how well that will go down with the CARMites.

I did not consult Wikipedia; and yes, I am deriding the scripture used and quoted by the evangelists.

In case you people haven't quite figured it out (from my repeated rejection of Christian dogmas and my repeated assertion that God is ONE), I am not a Christian.

I wonder how well that will go down with the CARMites.

Well, if any of the "CARMites" have a problem with how that goes down,

they can, to quote Eric Cartman, "[beep] my [beep]."

Will have to answer the rest tommorow.

Kind Regards

[Zakuska]

So Thorky II isn't a Evangeical Christian. Could he possibly be Jewish? Or maybe he is agnostic?

[volgadon]

Jewish, it seems, though I wonder what strand. Please don't say orthodox, Thorkyll, but be more specific.