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The Revelation at Mount Sinai (TORAH)


Thorkyll

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So you're wanting people to defend a specific viewpoint, but you're demanding they do so within a framework that rejects that viewpoint? That's ludicrous.

If words have meaning, then the Shema states that God has revealed to the Israelites that there is ONLY ONE God - "Hear O Israel, Yahweh your Elohim is one Yahweh," which sort of messes up the exclusive use of the name Jehovah for Jesus, doesn't it? It also pretty much excludes the possibility of other gods.

This clearly goes along with:

Isaiah 43:10,11. Ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD [Jehovah] and my servant whom I have chosen; that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God [Elohim] formed, neither shall there be after me. I, even I, am the LORD [Jehovah]; and beside me there is no savior.

We've already been told by one Mormon here that all this means is that no idols were manufactured before of after God, which is not in the text, which is a prime example of eisegetical deception, and which totally negates what God is saying - but then, I don't expect any Mormon here to disagree with any other Mormon! Sort of like the fraternity of doctors, I suppose....or the Masons.

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If words have meaning, then the Shema states that God has revealed to the Israelites that there is ONLY ONE God - "Hear O Israel, Yahweh your Elohim is one Yahweh," which sort of messes up the exclusive use of the name Jehovah for Jesus, doesn't it? It also pretty much excludes the possibility of other gods.

This clearly goes along with:

Isaiah 43:10,11. Ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD [Jehovah] and my servant whom I have chosen; that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God [Elohim] formed, neither shall there be after me. I, even I, am the LORD [Jehovah]; and beside me there is no savior.

We've already been told by one Mormon here that all this means is that no idols were manufactured before of after God, which is not in the text, which is a prime example of eisegetical deception, and which totally negates what God is saying - but then, I don't expect any Mormon here to disagree with any other Mormon! Sort of like the fraternity of doctors, I suppose....or the Masons.

What isn't so clear is that Paul must have missed the memo. Are there false or fake gods in heaven?

What did Jesus mean here?

20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;

21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.

22 And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:

23 I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.

How are Christ and the Father one? In what way are Christ and his follower to be one with him and his Father?

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What isn't so clear is that Paul must have missed the memo. Are there false or fake gods in heaven?

What did Jesus mean here?

20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;

21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.

22 And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:

23 I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.

How are Christ and the Father one? In what way are Christ and his follower to be one with him and his Father?

Is Satan a god?

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Theophanies in the Old Testament appear frequently. Now, answer the question, or do you argue like a Jewish rabbi? Paul called Satan the "god" of this world. Is he God?

Sinai was no mere "Theophanie"[sic], God walked on the Mount and the earth melted around him.

God calls his Children... "gods" even Sons of God.

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Is Satan a god?

In away he is to some. If Paul claimed that Satan is then Satan must be "god of this world". I sense that you are dodging the issue though.

You missed this too.

What did Jesus mean here?

20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;

21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.

22 And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:

23 I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.

How are Christ and the Father one? In what way are Christ and his follower to be one with him and his Father?

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Oh, yes. The same exact phrase used elsewhere is "pretty weak evidence." Same phrasing is actually very strong evidence.

So you would pin your understanding of Deuteronomy down to an ambiguous

quote from a pagan goddess (!) in a book written centuries after Deuteronomy?

That makes very little sense.

That's like basing your understanding of John 6 ["this is my flesh"] on similar language used by

Thomas Muntzer or on the liturgy of an 18th Century "black mass" which may mimmick the words of John 6.

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The thing is, the plurality is indicated not by the number "one" in any of these verses but by the particular thing that you're talking about.

e.g. one set of plates

it's "plates" and not "one" which makes this plural.

Other examples of Echad representing a plurality in unity... and not the Numeral 1.

Genesis 11

1 And the whole earth was of one language, and of one speech.

2 And it came to pass, as they journeyed from the east, that they found a plain in the land of Shinar; and they dwelt there.

3 And they said one to another, Go to, let us make brick, and burn them throughly. And they had brick for stone, and slime had they for morter.

4 And they said, Go to, let us build us a city and a tower, whose top may reach unto heaven; and let us make us a name, lest we be scattered abroad upon the face of the whole earth.

5 And the Lord came down to see the city and the tower, which the children of men builded.

6 And the Lord said, Behold, the people is one, and they have all one language; and this they begin to do: and now nothing will be restrained from them, which they have imagined to do.

There are many more I could share.

Echad is also often rendered as 1st (first), an example:

Gen 8:13

And it came to pass in the six 8337 hundredth 3967 and first year 8141, in the first 7223 [month], the first 259 [day] of the month 2320, the waters 4325 were dried up 2717 from off the earth 776: and Noah 5146 removed 5493 the covering 4372 of the ark 8392, and looked 7200 , and, behold, the face 6440 of the ground 127 was dry 2717 .

So keeping this definition in mind as well as the "First" of the ten commandments to have no other Gods "Before" God the Shema prayer could just as easily be rendered.

"Hear O Israel. The Lord our God is first"

Isn't Christ said to be the "ALPHA" and Omega?

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What isn't so clear is that Paul must have missed the memo. Are there false or fake gods in heaven?

What did Jesus mean here?

20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;

21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.

22 And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:

23 I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.

How are Christ and the Father one? In what way are Christ and his follower to be one with him and his Father?

Isn't the Greek word for "god" in 2 Corinthians 4:4 supposed to be a translation of elohim?

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The thing is, the plurality is indicated not by the number "one" in any of these verses but by the particular thing that you're talking about.

e.g. one set of plates

it's "plates" and not "one" which makes this plural.

And in the context of God its "one" Godhead made up of three Gods.

Otherwise the plural "Us" in "Let us make man in OUR own Image after OUR own likeness". Makes completely No sense what so ever.

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And in the context of God its "one" Godhead made up of three Gods.

Otherwise the plural "Us" in "Let us make man in OUR own Image after OUR own likeness". Makes completely No sense what so ever.

Where do you get THREE gods in the context of "God is ONE"? That makes no sense.

"Let us make man in our image" = God is talking to the angels.

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Isn't the Greek word for "god" in 2 Corinthians 4:4 supposed to be a translation of elohim?

Elohim is a Hebrew word, 2 Cor was written in Greek, so you question is rather idiotic.

The Greek word that is translated into "god" is "theos".

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"Let us (the Father says to the Son) make man in our image". There mystery solved.

Just read the Greek of John 1:1 it makes it clear the Jesus (the Word) was with the Father (the Theos). Yes both of them were there, together and both were divine.

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Is Satan a god?

Satan is among the sons of God in Job 1.

And if you connect Satan with Lucifer, the NET commentary of Isaiah 14 says the following:

"These verses, which appear to be spoken by other pagan kings to a pagan king (cf. vv. 9-11), contain several titles and motifs that resemble those of Canaanite mythology, including references to Helel son of Shachar, the stars of El, the mountain of assembly, the recesses of Zaphon, and the divine title Most High. Apparently these verses allude to a mythological story about a minor god (Helel son of Shachar) who tried to take over Zaphon, the mountain of the gods. His attempted coup failed and he was hurled down to the underworld. The king of Babylon is taunted for having similar unrealized delusions of grandeur."

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And God the Father says to his Son Jesus Christ...

Gen 11

6 And the Lord said, Behold, the people is one, and they have all one language; and this they begin to do: and now nothing will be restrained from them, which they have imagined to do.

7 Go to, let us go down, and there confound their language, that they may not understand one another

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So you would pin your understanding of Deuteronomy down to an ambiguous

quote from a pagan goddess (!) in a book written centuries after Deuteronomy?

That makes very little sense.

That's like basing your understanding of John 6 ["this is my flesh"] on similar language used by

Thomas Muntzer or on the liturgy of an 18th Century "black mass" which may mimmick the words of John 6.

I would because Yahweh uses the same language in Isaiah as He does in Deut. Babylon uses the same language in Isaiah.

Who said it is irrelevant. Your scare tactic of pagan goddess won't work.

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"Let us make man in our image" = God is talking to the angels.

God is talking to the other elohim. Remember, elohim means "divinity":

In an exhaustively researched essay, LDS scholar Daniel C. Peterson (Ph.D., Near Eastern Languages and Cultures) notes that the divine council was "a kind of corporate deity, in which a number of gods functioned as if they were, in fact, one god.
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Elohim is a Hebrew word, 2 Cor was written in Greek, so you question is rather idiotic.

The Greek word that is translated into "god" is "theos".

Did you just call me an idiot? You'd get an infraction for that on CARM. :P

Anyway, what I OBVIOUSLY meant was: "is the Greek, theos, in this

verse intended as equivalent to the Hebrew, elohim?".

Is this mythical devil character one of the elohim?

And if so, how can a devil be elohim, yet angels cannot?

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Are you sure Dr. Petersen didn't plagerize that from Justin Marytr writting in the 1st Century BC?

http://www.ccel.org/...ii.iv.lxii.html

Also notice how Justin calls Throky II's interpretation, 'That God was talking with Angels' in Genesis 1-3; 11 is a Heresy!

Also notice how Justin identifies Christ as Wisdom, this Second God!

I agree, elohim refers to divinity; which is why it should include angels and authorities imbued with divine authority.

Since Justin Martyr was a heathen, it's not my problem if he called the truth 'heresy'.

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I would because Yahweh uses the same language in Isaiah as He does in Deut. Babylon uses the same language in Isaiah.

Who said it is irrelevant. Your scare tactic of pagan goddess won't work.

Isaiah is not God, he's not writing word-for-word what God is telling him to write. He's a human being -- a social activist -- raging the fire of divine pathos, he sees injustice and corruption through the eyes of God. What you see in Isaiah are not God's words. Deuteronomy has God's words. Deuteronomy sets the standard for understanding Isaiah, not vice versa. Either way, regardless of what the pagan goddess meant, it has no bearing on what God meant by the same words centuries earlier.

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