Joseph Smith and Latter day Prophecies

[Cold Steel]

During a recent discussion on another topic, the question of latter-day prophecies was discussed. Although most Christians believe in the prophecies of Christ and find great meaning and solace within, some are wholly unimpressed with the latter-day prophecies of the LDS faith. Hoops22 wrote that Joseph Smith's prophecies "are every bit as unremarkable and his claims every bit as unsubstantiated" as those of a recent claimant of revelation

[Redefined]

Isaiah came before Joseph Smith. Joseph Smith had studied the bible had he not? Isn't it possible to you that he ran with that prophecy. Nothing that the Book of Mormon states about Joseph Smith being this root of Jesse Isaiah was talking about, can be taken as proof, because it is circular!

Joseph Smith: I am this root of Jesse Isaiah was talking about.

Critic: How do you figure?

Joseph Smith: Because it says so in the book I wrote!

So with Harold Blooms acclaim of Joseph Smith, someone is a prophet if they have more imagination then the others?

I don't think I have to say what I think of Joseph Smith's character, but many people have the ability to gain a following.. . Jose Luis de JESUS Miranda comes to mind http://www.cnn.com/2007/US/02/16/miami.preacher/index.html.

[SeattleGhostWriter]

Isaiah came before Joseph Smith. Joseph Smith had studied the bible had he not? Isn't it possible to you that he ran with that prophecy. Nothing that the Book of Mormon states about Joseph Smith being this root of Jesse Isaiah was talking about, can be taken as proof, because it is circular!

Joseph Smith: I am this root of Jesse Isaiah was talking about.

Critic: How do you figure?

Joseph Smith: Because it says so in the book I wrote!

So with Harold Blooms acclaim of Joseph Smith, someone is a prophet if they have more imagination then the others?

I don't think I have to say what I think of Joseph Smith's character, but many people have the ability to gain a following.. . Jose Luis de JESUS Miranda comes to mind http://www.cnn.com/2007/US/02/16/miami.preacher/index.html.

How are Christian Pastors and Ministers called?

[Redefined]

How are Christian Pastors and Ministers called?

You are asking the wrong person. The Mormon church is all I've ever known.

[Cold Steel]

Isaiah came before Joseph Smith. Joseph Smith had studied the bible had he not? Isn't it possible to you that he ran with that prophecy. Nothing that the Book of Mormon states about Joseph Smith being this root of Jesse Isaiah was talking about, can be taken as proof, because it is circular!

Yes, he could have said that. But the same is true of Jesus, for He had read Isaiah as well. But the problem goes beyond that, as many of these prophecies have time elements in them. It's one thing to make a prophecy; it's quite another to actually fulfill it. For example, I can make a prophecy about myself showing up at church tomorrow, and can fulfill it easily enough. But if I made a prophecy about my name being had for good and evil throughout the world, that might be a bit more difficult to pull off.

Isaiah also prophesied with time elements. In Chapter 29, he writes: "Is it not yet a very little while, and Lebanon shall be turned into a fruitful field, and the fruitful field shall be esteemed as a forest?" This sets up a time period that can only be in our day. President Spencer W. Kimball remarked:

[sleepyhead]

But perhaps Hoops22 would care to explain what it is about Joseph Smith's life and mission that is so unremarkable and typical of others she sees as shysters. As for those who are LDS, what are some of the things that impress you most about Joseph Smith? What is it that sets him off from others?

Hello,

I'm not hoops but I would like to make a commnet here. We have a saying within the ARE (Association for Research and Enlightenment) that if the written material provides a value to your life than continue to use it and if it doesn't then discard it. Setting aside whether JS was a true or false prophet, what value to your life have his statements provided to you? Have any of the comments made by present or past presidents/prophets helped you to be a better neighbor?

[Scottie]

But if I made a prophecy about my name being had for good and evil throughout the world, that might be a bit more difficult to pull off.

You're joking, right?? That is the easiest thing in the world to pull off.

Name a single religious leader whose name is not had for good and evil.

I also think you overestimate JS fame in the world. I suspect very few have ever heard his name, and those who have don't think much of it, let alone assigning good or evil to it.

[Scottie]

** Duplicate **

[Hamba Tuhan]

Name a single religious leader whose name is not had for good and evil.

Er, if a religious leader is so obscure that his or her name is not 'had for good and evil,' how am I supposed to name him or her???

[Redefined]

Er, if a religious leader is so obscure that his or her name is not 'had for good and evil,' how am I supposed to name him or her???

I think you're just arguing Scotties last point here.

I also think you overestimate JS fame in the world. I suspect very few have ever heard his name, and those who have don't think much of it, let alone assigning good or evil to it.

[Cold Steel]

You're joking, right?? That is the easiest thing in the world to pull off. Name a single religious leader whose name is not had for good and evil.

Throughout the entire world? I dare say most would-be priests and prophets cannot gain worldwide notoriety despite their best efforts. For Joseph Smith to make such a claim, and for the prophecies he fulfilled just from the Book of Mormon alone is incredible. Nephi quoted Joseph who was sold into Egypt. In speaking of the great prophet Moses who should arise, Joseph looks forward through time to see a latter day seer who would be great like unto Moses: "For Joseph truly testified, saying: A seer shall the Lord my God raise up, who shall be a choice seer unto the fruit of my loins. Yea, Joseph truly said: Thus saith the Lord unto me: A choice seer will I raise up out of the fruit of thy loins... And unto him will I give commandment that he shall do a work for the fruit of thy loins, his brethren, which shall be of great worth unto them, even to the bringing of them to the knowledge of the covenants which I have made with thy fathers... And he shall be great" even as Moses would be great, he said.

In the New Testament, the Jews asked Jesus if he was "that prophet" who would "restore all things" and Jesus said he was not. But who was the prophet known in Jewish literature who would restore all things? John Tvedtnes writes about the great Messiah ben Joseph, a prophet who would arise in the days before the coming of Christ, the great Messiah Ben David. This prophet was associated with restoration, particularly the restoration of Israel and the temple. He would be a direct descendant of Joseph and was also associated with the promised return of Elijah. Tvedtnes writes: "In the late 1970s, while teaching with the Brigham Young University Jerusalem program, I was invited to give a series of lectures (in Hebrew) on the subject of Mormonism at the University of Haifa. In one of the lectures, I displayed a chart outlining Joseph Smith

[Scottie]

Er, if a religious leader is so obscure that his or her name is not 'had for good and evil,' how am I supposed to name him or her???

What the... ????

Who said ANYTHING about obscure??? Name a single well known religious leader whose name is known for good and evil??

[Cold Steel]

In addition to scripture, Joseph Smith made a number of prophecies that indicated that he was a prophet. The most well known one is that of the war between the states that began in 1861. The prophecy indicated that following the war, that "war would be poured out upon all nations." Orson Pratt carried a copy of the revelation around with him, as did other missionaries. He later said, "What did they have to say to me? They thought it was a Mormon humbug, and laughed me to scorn, and they looked upon that revelation as they do upon all others that God has given in these latter days

[volgadon]

What the... ????

Who said ANYTHING about obscure??? Name a single well known religious leader whose name is known for good and evil??

You've highlited the right phrase. The prophecy was made when Joseph was still rather obscure (regardless of whether or not you believe that Moroni said it).

[Scottie]

You've highlited the right phrase. The prophecy was made when Joseph was still rather obscure (regardless of whether or not you believe that Moroni said it).

Hmm... not a whole lot of risk in that "prophecy", is there. Either he goes away in obscurity and nobody ever even knows this "prophecy" was uttered, or he goes on to fame and the "prophecy" is fulfilled.

Here, let me try! "I, Scottie, prophecy that my name shall be known throughout the world for good and evil!"

There. Now if I get famous, I can refer back this this prophecy as PROOF of my abilities!! If I don't get famous, well, oh well.

[LeSellers]

"I, Scottie, prophecy that my name shall be known throughout the world for good and evil!"

There. Now if I get famous, I can refer back this this prophecy as PROOF of my abilities!! If I don't get famous, well, oh well.

Not quite, because your name is already known for good (by other antis) and for evil (by us Saints).

Lehi

[MormonMason]

I think we should focus on the good stuff, the stuff that made people even in the days of Joseph Smith turn their heads.

One such prophecy was reported by Philo Dibble. There was a guy who took time out of his daily routine to mock the saints and so forth. Joseph Smith remarked out loud to this fellow while preaching that "forty days shall not pass away before the stars shall fall from the heavens." 39 days and nights later the brightest, most spectacular meteor shower ever recorded in US history happened. The guy then found ample reason to pal around with the Saints as often as he could rather than mock the Saints.

[Scottie]

Not quite, because your name is already known for good (by other antis) and for evil (by us Saints).

Lehi

Wow, see!! I'm already a prophet!!

[volgadon]

Are you going to move Timpanogos now?

[Cold Steel]

Only non-religious prophets seem to be in vogue now. With all the History Channel features on the future, none has considered Joseph Smith and the Latter-day Saints. Instead, Nostradamus, Mother Shipton and web bots are consulted.

Joseph Smith was not just another frontier prophet. Instead of consolidating all the power for himself, he urged all men to be prophets. Unlike Muhammad, Ellen G. White, Ann Lee and all the other would-be religious leaders, he established Mormonism to survive and to flourish even after he had departed the scene. He had witnesses who collaborated every major aspect of the restoration of the Gospel, including the restoration of priesthood keys and even the three degrees of glory.

As far as I can tell, this restoration lacked nothing that one could expect in a work designed and carried out by the Maker and Framer of all things. There will always be false prophets and false messiahs, but Jesus never warned us to reject all claimants, but merely the false ones. I've asked people who think that all prophecy and revelation has been done away how, if this is true, that God could raise the two end-time prophets as prophesied by John and Ezekiel. No one has been able to say.

Who will these two be? How will they be called? How, and by whom, shall they be ordained? If all has been revealed and there is no more revelation to come, what need will there be for them and their ministries?

If God has called prophets throughout human history, and if He never changes, why do so many hold to the view that no more revelation is needed? In the days of Joseph Smith, I find it remarkable that so many people were wondering, expecting and discussing why revelation had ceased and would the Lord speak again? Only in our cynical age do people seem to have their minds made up. They no longer seem to wonder, or to care, really, whether God speaks. (That's the minister's job, or that's up to the priest to answer.)

I started this thread because Hoops22 couldn't see any difference between the claims of other false prophets and those of Joseph Smith. "Keys of authority is meaningless," she said. "What keys? What authority? And authority of what? But let's say you can de-mangle all of that and adequately define each point...it is still up to you to provide evidence that [other false prophets do] not have those." Since "we must have reliable witnesses and true prophecies," she asked, are Mormons "willing to examine Mr. Smith in the same way" other claimants are examined?

It's a fair question and we do. But it's also only fair that others so evaluate Joseph Smith and his claims and prophecy.

.