Was God a transgressor?

[notHagoth7]

His own words convict him.

Zak, in your noteworthy zeal to prove a point, I think you may be overlooking one key thing.

Why would it matter whether he upheld every secular law? (When some secular laws are simply unjust or unreasonable.)

Since he was both king of kings and lawgiver, I'm not of the opinion he was subject to Roman or Sanhedrin jurisprudence (although he allowed himself to be subject to their penalties).

So even if he may have been reckoned by some as a transgressor of secular law or order -

that wouldn't make him a transgressor of more important things.

As I recall, the thread was originally exploring the context of sin.

If so, it seems to have strayed from that initial domain into secular matters.

Or perhaps I'm missing your point...?

[Zakuska]

Lets let the Rabbi speak...

Dear Rabbi,

I just watched the movie The Passion. Isn't crucifixion against Jewish law? I read that in Juaism the death penalty was only given for premeditated murder witnessed by at least two credible witnesses. And even then, the death sentence was to be as swift and humane as possible. If this is true, and crucifixion was against Jewish law, doesn't that verify that the Romans, not the Jews, were the physically responsible party for the death of Jesus? Also, if the death penalty was only for murder, why would the woman accused of adultery be stoned. Was that a death sentence crime as well?

Thanks, Beth

Answer: Dear Beth,

Jews would not have used crucifixion, period.

Crucifixion was a uniquely Roman form of execution that was given for the crime of treason against the state. Probably about 25,000 Jews were crucified by the Romans. Ultimately, because of his cruelty, Pilate was recalled to Rome where he either committed suicide or was executed himself.

Secondly, Jews did not have the authority at any level to execute anyone. All legal discussions were theoretical. Jews were subject to Roman occupation from the time of Herod the Great (approximately 30 BCE), who was appointed by Julius Ceasar.

http://judaism.about...crucifixion.htm

Thats where all the "king of the Jews" talk came from.

[Jason]

As I recall, the thread was originally exploring the context of sin.

If so, it seems to have strayed from that initial domain into secular matters.

Point taken. My original purpose was to show that others acheived godhood without transgressing the law. If Jesus is not a good example of that point then it still doesn't argue that God must have transgressed.

[Obiwan]

Isn't there also an extra-biblical story in which Christ as a child killed another kid accidentally, but then raised him up?

[Zakuska]

Isn't there also an extra-biblical story in which Christ as a child killed another kid accidentally, but then raised him up?

I thought that was a bird.

They used to drink his dirty bathwater because it healed them too.

[Lightbearer]

Board rules make this topic very close to the line so Im walking on eggshells here. Im going to repeat half a sentence...

"For that is how God gained his Knowledge."

How literal or far does this suggestion go? Scripture to back it up? Thoughts?

First, we do know that God (meaning the Father) lived on a mortal world much like ours. Beyond that it is difficult to say "if he sinned" or "transgressed" while in his mortal probation. The KFD indicates that He could also have been a Christ (like Jesus Christ) but we do not really have any "official word" and that probably is the reason President Hinckley said that we "don't know much about it." Because we don't. Now the burning question as I see it, is the atonement of Christ infinite and eternal? What I mean is if we are infinite and eternal in nature, is it possible for us to sin and through the atonement of Christ be TOTALLY CLEANSED? Can we return to our pre-sin purity? If so then the question of whether God the Father ever sinned or transgressed is a rather moot point. Did God the Father "gain His knowledge" by partaking of the forbidden fruit? Did we? Are children who are not accountable capable of committing sin? Must they commit sin to gain knowledge? A lot of unanswerable questions. Now we come to our example, Christ the Lord. He was born of mortal woman and an immortal Father. Did the fact He was born of a mortal make Him a transgressor? I say NO, any more than we are responsible for Adam's transgression. However we do suffer the consequences of Adam's transgression as well as enjoy the benefits. Did Jesus sin? The scriptures say NO, as in the following:

(Hebrews 4:14-15) "Seeing then that we have a great high priest, that is passed into the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our profession. For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin."

He was a perfect sacrifice, and thus He had to be sinless. Now by virtue of His mortality He had the ability to suffer and to die. By virtue of Him being the Son of God, He has power over death and the power to be resurrected. Also because of His purity He was able to suffer all the sins of mankind... this is infinite and eternal in nature and has the ability of purifying us even as He is pure. The reason we could not be sacrificed as Jesus did is we are not part mortal and part immortal (physically) we have mortal parents. His mother was Mary (a mortal) but His Father was God the Father an immortal being. That is why He is called the only begotten Son of God. The following gives a wealth of knowledge:

(Moses 6:53-62) "And our father Adam spake unto the Lord, and said: Why is it that men must repent and be baptized in water? And the Lord said unto Adam: Behold I have forgiven thee thy transgression in the Garden of Eden. Hence came the saying abroad among the people, that the Son of God hath atoned for original guilt, wherein the sins of the parents cannot be answered upon the heads of the children, for they are whole from the foundation of the world. And the Lord spake unto Adam, saying: Inasmuch as thy children are conceived in sin, even so when they begin to grow up, sin conceiveth in their hearts, and they taste the bitter, that they may know to prize the good. And it is given unto them to know good from evil; wherefore they are agents unto themselves, and I have given unto you another law and commandment. Wherefore teach it unto your children, that all men, everywhere, must repent, or they can in nowise inherit the kingdom of God, for no unclean thing can dwell there, or dwell in his presence; for, in the language of Adam, Man of Holiness is his name, and the name of his Only Begotten is the Son of Man, even Jesus Christ, a righteous Judge, who shall come in the meridian of time. Therefore I give unto you a commandment, to teach these things freely unto your children, saying: That by reason of transgression cometh the fall, which fall bringeth death, and inasmuch as ye were born into the world by water, and blood, and the spirit, which I have made, and so became of dust a living soul, even so ye must be born again into the kingdom of heaven, of water, and of the Spirit, and be cleansed by blood, even the blood of mine Only Begotten; that ye might be sanctified from all sin, and enjoy the words of eternal life in this world, and eternal life in the world to come, even immortal glory; For by the water ye keep the commandment; by the Spirit ye are justified, and by the blood ye are sanctified; Therefore it is given to abide in you; the record of heaven; the Comforter; the peaceable things of immortal glory; the truth of all things; that which quickeneth all things, which maketh alive all things; that which knoweth all things, and hath all power according to wisdom, mercy, truth, justice, and judgment. And now, behold, I say unto you: This is the plan of salvation unto all men, through the blood of mine Only Begotten, who shall come in the meridian of time."

The Father is called: Man of Holiness... so whether He had sinned in His mortal state is not relevant because now He is a "Man of Holiness" and Christ is the Son of Man of Holiness. Note here that the atonement of Christ makes us all free to choose life or death. In the case of Christ He "could have sinned" but chose not to sin. The purpose of His atonement was to make us all holy again, after our tests and trials of mortality and the development of our faith, repentance and forgiveness was granted to the penitent so that we could become one with the Father by following the Son with full purpose of heart. Our judgement will be "according to our works" and according to our "desires of our hearts" and also I might add according to our faith in Christ. Exaltation seems impossible to some because they cannot imagine that the blood of Christ can cleanse us "every wit" and that God truly will "remember them no more." I offer the following as evidence:

(Moroni 10:32-33) "Yea, come unto Christ, and be perfected in him, and deny yourselves of all ungodliness; and if ye shall deny yourselves of all ungodliness, and love God with all your might, mind and strength, then is his grace sufficient for you, that by his grace ye may be perfect in Christ; and if by the grace of God ye are perfect in Christ, ye can in nowise deny the power of God. And again, if ye by the grace of God are perfect in Christ, and deny not his power, then are ye sanctified in Christ by the grace of God, through the shedding of the blood of Christ, which is in the covenant of the Father unto the remission of your sins, that ye become holy, without spot."

That is what the glad tidings are all about, we are not saved "in our sins" but we are saved "from our sins."

[Zakuska]

Lightbearer,

Thanks for an exellent post. This part of your argument cuts both ways though...

First, we do know that God (meaning the Father) lived on a mortal world much like ours. Beyond that it is difficult to say "if he sinned" or "transgressed" while in his mortal probation. The KFD indicates that He could also have been a Christ (like Jesus Christ) but we do not really have any "official word" and that probably is the reason President Hinckley said that we "don't know much about it." Because we don't. Now the burning question as I see it, is the atonement of Christ infinite and eternal? What I mean is if we are infinite and eternal in nature, is it possible for us to sin and through the atonement of Christ be TOTALLY CLEANSED? Can we return to our pre-sin purity? If so then the question of whether God the Father ever sinned or transgressed is a rather moot point. Did God the Father "gain His knowledge" by partaking of the forbidden fruit? Did we? Are children who are not accountable capable of committing sin? Must they commit sin to gain knowledge? A lot of unanswerable questions. Now we come to our example, Christ the Lord. He was born of mortal woman and an immortal Father. Did the fact He was born of a mortal make Him a transgressor? I say NO, any more than we are responsible for Adam's transgression. However we do suffer the consequences of Adam's transgression as well as enjoy the benefits. Did Jesus sin? The scriptures say NO, as in the following:

(Hebrews 4:14-15) "Seeing then that we have a great high priest, that is passed into the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our profession. For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin."

He was a perfect sacrifice, and thus He had to be sinless. Now by virtue of His mortality He had the ability to suffer and to die. By virtue of Him being the Son of God, He has power over death and the power to be resurrected. Also because of His purity He was able to suffer all the sins of mankind... this is infinite and eternal in nature and has the ability of purifying us even as He is pure. The reason we could not be sacrificed as Jesus did is we are not part mortal and part immortal (physically) we have mortal parents. His mother was Mary (a mortal) but His Father was God the Father an immortal being. That is why He is called the only begotten Son of God. The following gives a wealth of knowledge:

Yes Christ was "without sin" but that doesn't say he "did not sin". He was after all baptized and pronounced clean just like the rest of us.

[Calm]

Yes Christ was "without sin" but that doesn't say he "did not sin". He was after all baptized and pronounced clean just like the rest of us.

Did not John say he did not need the baptism as others needed though?

[Lightbearer]

Lightbearer,

Thanks for an exellent post. This part of your argument cuts both ways though...

Yes Christ was "without sin" but that doesn't say he "did not sin". He was after all baptized and pronounced clean just like the rest of us.

What about the following:

2 Nephi 31:4-9) "Wherefore, I would that ye should remember that I have spoken unto you concerning that prophet which the Lord showed unto me, that should baptize the Lamb of God, which should take away the sins of the world. And now, if the Lamb of God, he being holy, should have need to be baptized by water, to fulfil all righteousness, O then, how much more need have we, being unholy, to be baptized, yea, even by water! And now, I would ask of you, my beloved brethren, wherein the Lamb of God did fulfil all righteousness in being baptized by water? Know ye not that he was holy? But notwithstanding he being holy, he showeth unto the children of men that, according to the flesh he humbleth himself before the Father, and witnesseth unto the Father that he would be obedient unto him in keeping his commandments. Wherefore, after he was baptized with water the Holy Ghost descended upon him in the form of a dove. And again, it showeth unto the children of men the straitness of the path, and the narrowness of the gate, by which they should enter, he having set the example before them."

Don't think you can make it much plainer... he did not sin. If you need further evidence I submit the following:

(D&C 45:3-5) "Listen to him who is the advocate with the Father, who is pleading your cause before him

[Zakuska]

The Book of mormon verse still doesn't say he did not sin. Even the stones of the Temple are considered... Holiness to the Lord. Arent even the Aposltes and Prophets who have sinned consider Holy as well?

it also says that he did infact NEED baptism... otherwise he would have sinned.

Now the D&C one... I can't argue with that, Except in that any sins that he potentially could have had before baptism were washed away at that time, and he kept himself unspoted from the world for the 3 years of his ministry.

[Zakuska]

I can't argue with Isaiah either...

Isaiah 53

9 And he made his grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death; because he had done no violence, neither was any deceit in his mouth.

Here is a better translation:

And I will give the wicked for His grave, and the rich for His death, because He committed no iniquity, and deceit was not found in His mouth.

Was Joseph of Aramathea Rich?

[MormonMason]

It is a line from the endowment. If God gained his Knowledge the same way Adam did his. That would mean the God had to pass through the same process. He would have had to Die, be ressurected, etc etc. as a natural consiquence.

Thus he would have had to transgress the law too.

Consider the source of the claim. Satan was not exactly known for telling the truth all the time.