Revisiting Elder Holland's Sermon

[Zakuska]

We see things very differently. Perhaps in some ways I'm more gifted than you! I could say there are a great many Latter-day Saints that failed to recognize the anger in the man and a lack of love which love is what emulates the Spirit. It went right over their heads, including yours, apparently.

Now, what happens privately between elder Holland and President Monson will not be open to your view or mine. You can shake their hands and give happy greetings but you aren't going in the back room where they talk about their problems.

Again, I saw the anger. I felt it. It was clear and strong and came right into my spirit. I cannot deny it. I'm sorry that so many others lacked the ability to see this too.

Also, I wonder how many times elder Paul H. Dunn was praised for his talks even though there was something wrong with them? Praise for a talk doesn't mean all is well. It's a courtesy thing if anything.

Paul O

Perhaps we attract and see the type of spirit we our selfs are looking for.

[Paul Osborne]

We see things very differently. Perhaps in some ways I'm more gifted than you! I could say there are a great many Latter-day Saints who failed to see any anger in Elder Holland, simply because it wasn't there, and who failed to notice any lack of love because that is also not true. The talk went right over the heads of many critics -- including yours, apparently.

Now, what happens privately between Elder Holland and President Monson will not be open to your view or mine. You can criticize and condemn Elder Holland to your heart's content, but you aren't going in the back room, and they probably don't spend much time talking about the criticisms they get from apostates, anti-Mormons, and dissidents.

Again, I saw no anger. I felt no anger. The talk was clear and strong and spoke directly to my spirit. I cannot deny it. I'm sorry that some others lack the ability to see this too.

Why are you copying what I say? I said it first and it makes sense when I say it but it doesn't make sense when you say it. What is wrong with you?

Look, I know a thing or two about the dark side and I felt it coming from his talk because his spirit was troubled and angry. I trust President Monson will take care of business. I believe President Monson knows more about love than you and me put together.

Now, you remember that I said elder Holland's next talk will be very different. Don't forget I told you that. Then, at that time you will know I was right.

Paul O

[Uncle Dale]

...

What is wrong with you?

...

Shhh -- there may be Primary children watching!

Uncle "Behold, mine house is a house of order, saith the Lord God, and not a house of confusion" Dale

[Daniel Peterson]

Why are you copying what I say? I said it first and it makes sense when I say it but it doesn't make sense when you say it. What is wrong with you?

I was making fun of your rather shameless claim to superior discernment and spirituality.

Look, I know a thing or two about the dark side and I felt it coming from his talk because his spirit was troubled and angry.

I think that's nonsense.

I trust President Monson will take care of business. I believe President Monson knows more about love than you and me put together.

I think highly of President Monson, too. I suspect that, like me and the vast majority of the Latter-day Saints, he loved and appreciated Elder Holland's remarks.

Now, you remember that I said elder Holland's next talk will be very different. Don't forget I told you that. Then, at that time you will know I was right.

Since Elder Holland's previous talks have all been different from this one, I think it very likely that his next one will be different from this one, too. That won't begin to prove you right in your condemnation of Elder Holland.

[Paul Osborne]

Perhaps we attract and see the type of spirit we our selfs are looking for.

Or, could it be that I'm simply a bit more gifted in seeing things others don't see? Maybe my life's experiences have given me a bit of an edge over others, perhaps?

I saw what I saw and felt what I felt. It was apparent. It was as clear as day. I saw the dark side get the better of someone and it happens to the best of us!

Paul O

[Zakuska]

Or, could it be that I'm simply a bit more gifted in seeing things others don't see? Maybe my life's experiences have given me a bit of an edge over others, perhaps?

I saw what I saw and felt what I felt. It was apparent. It was as clear as day. I saw the dark side get the better of someone and it happens to the best of us!

Paul O

Gifted?

Preconditioned perhaps. We see what we want to see.

[Nevo]

Do you believe the actual criticisms of anachronisms in the BoM are pathetic? If I understand Elder Holland correctly, he believes they are.

I believe Uncle Dale actually quoted the relevant excerpt from Elder Holland's talk in his opening post. There was no mention of Book of Mormon anachronisms. Specifically, Elder Holland described four naturalistic theories of Book of Mormon origins as "frankly pathetic."

For a fuller explication of Elder Holland's views on those who question the historicity of the Book of Mormon, see LOaP's blog post here.

[Daniel Peterson]

Or, could it be that I'm simply a bit more gifted in seeing things others don't see? Maybe my life's experiences have given me a bit of an edge over others, perhaps?

Anything's possible.

Doesn't seem likely, though.

I saw what I saw and felt what I felt.

So did I. So did many tens of thousands of other Latter-day Saints.

It was apparent. It was as clear as day.

I couldn't agree more.

That's why the strange reaction of the critics is so very interesting.

I saw the dark side get the better of someone

That's what I've seen.

[Uncle Dale]

Why the need for the Brethren's approval?

If they are indeed The Lord's Anointed -- ordained as prophets, seers, revelators and translators,

each bearing witness to a personal encounter with Jesus Christ, then they have some claim

to extending or denying Divine "approval," I suppose. Or -- I could be wrong, perhaps.

But, let's not forget that it was Elder Holland (and/or his staff) who put me on

the road to my textual studies at Oberlin College, in 1979-80.

http://solomonspalding.com/SRP/SRPpap01.htm

UD

[Paul Osborne]

Since Elder Holland's previous talks have all been different from this one, I think it very likely that his next one will be different from this one, too. That won't begin to prove you right in your condemnation of Elder Holland

I

[Paul Osborne]

Gifted?

Preconditioned perhaps. We see what we want to see

What? I see a lot of things in life that I don't want to see. Seeing something doesn't mean that I wanted to see it. Not by a long shot! I see what I see when I see it.

You don't make much sense to me.

Paul O

[Daniel Peterson]

I

[rockslider]

If they are indeed The Lord's Anointed -- ordained as prophets, seers, revelators and translators,

each bearing witness to a personal encounter with Jesus Christ, then they have some claim

to extending or denying Divine "approval," I suppose. Or -- I could be wrong, perhaps.

But, let's not forget that it was Elder Holland (and/or his staff) who put me on

the road to my textual studies at Oberlin College, in 1979-80.

http://solomonspaldi...RP/SRPpap01.htm

UD

Did you see my software question? I'm sure at this time there was not much, but what is used today?

[Zakuska]

What? I see a lot of things in life that I don't want to see. Seeing something doesn't mean that I wanted to see it. Not by a long shot! I see what I see when I see it.

You don't make much sense to me.

Paul O

Im talking about interpretation... Seeing with your minds eye. You see things with your eyes. But two people can look at the same thing and interpret it completely different.

What do you see?

[rockslider]

Im talking about interpretation... Seeing with your minds eye. You see things with your eyes. But two people can look at the same thing and interpret it completely different.

What do you see?

my wife, cyclic as it were

[Uncle Dale]

UD, I asked Criddle how he thought things might be different with the Royal version,

but I later wanted to ask about how the analysis is done.

I doubt Criddle has purchased the latest Skousen book -- maybe he'll

pick up a copy while in Utah this weekend.

Is there a well known software program people use for this?

For the sort of word-print analysis the Stanford team did? Something on Unix I think.

I'm stuck back at the level of using MS Word's Concordance function, and doing

quantitative stuff by hand. I don't even try match their level of analysis.

Are they writing their own software, or are these done on more of a brute force search?

Jockers is very approachable. I think even the Mormons correspond with him --

so you might ask directly. I'm a poor source for this sort of info.

Just continue praying that Paul and DCP keep up their argument and allow my

stuff to float along atop their increased thread usage bandwidth!

UD

[Daniel Peterson]

Just continue praying that Paul and DCP keep up their argument and allow my stuff to float along atop their increased thread usage bandwidth!

There's no real argument, of course. He asserts; I deny.

But it's grown wearisome, and I have promises to keep, and miles to go before I sleep

[rockslider]

I doubt Criddle has purchased the latest Skousen book -- maybe he'll

pick up a copy while in Utah this weekend.

For the sort of word-print analysis the Stanford team did? Something on Unix I think.

I'm stuck back at the level of using MS Word's Concordance function, and doing

quantitative stuff by hand. I don't even try match their level of analysis.

Jockers is very approachable. I think even the Mormons correspond with him --

so you might ask directly. I'm a poor source for this sort of info.

Just continue praying that Paul and DCP keep up their argument and allow my

stuff to float along atop their increased thread usage bandwidth!

UD

Thanks, sorry for my interruptions, however somewhat on topic.

I have been somewhat amused at Dr. P's indulgence.

[Paul Osborne]

I can't help but comment, by the way, on the irony of this situation: Back a few years ago, you continually rebuked me for my failure (with regard to Book of Mormon geography) to be as loyal to the Brethren as you claimed to be. This time around, since I'm clearly more supportive of Elder Holland than you are, you're rebuking me for my failure to be as discerning and spiritual as you claim to be. Curious

I've rebuked you? No, I've not done that. I think you're being overly sensitive and are upset with my claim to understand something that you don't and still don't see. All I've ever tried to do of late towards you is express love for you as a person. It's true that in some ways I'm smarter than you but I don't say that to make you feel bad. I think you're smarter than me in more ways. But that doesn't make me feel bad!

Now, I think you are way too smart to forget this little conversation while you process elder Holland's talk next conference. For sure, you don't forget things that easily. Your just too gifted for that. You're a multi tasker with a mind of a steel trap.

You will see a different spirit coming from elder Holland next conference. I'm sure I will even like the talk! I hope so.

Paul O

[Uncle Dale]

I have been somewhat amused at Dr. P's indulgence.

Oh, I just think he's been reading Defense of the Faith and the Saints

and has not yet got around to History's Apprentice.

From the Ethan Smith shout-out, I gather Elder Holland has indeed read Roberts' later stuff.

UD

[Paul Osborne]

What do you see?

I see Zakuska dressed as a women like the men in Facsimile No. 3!

Paul O

[William Schryver]

Or, could it be that I'm simply a bit more gifted in seeing things others don't see? Maybe my life's experiences have given me a bit of an edge over others, perhaps?

I saw what I saw and felt what I felt. It was apparent. It was as clear as day. I saw the dark side get the better of someone and it happens to the best of us!

Paul O

Yeah, me too.

And if your trajectory in the past few years is any indication, it continues to get darker with each passing day.

It's sad to watch.

[Zakuska]

I see Zakuska dressed as a women like the men in Facsimile No. 3!

Paul O

Whos to say that is womens dress?

Scots wear kilts. One wonders where they got the idea.

[rockslider]

Oh, I just think he's been reading Defense of the Faith and the Saints

and has not yet got around to History's Apprentice.

From the Ethan Smith shout-out, I gather Elder Holland has indeed read Roberts' later stuff.

UD

Why do I feel like a basket ball back stop?

[Paul Osborne]

Yeah, me too.

And if your trajectory in the past few years is any indication, it continues to get darker with each passing day.

It's sad to watch

Oh come on, now. Didn't you know I've been crowned "God Almighty" on my avatar over on the board that has no name? That's right, I've become the God of gods. Go and see for yourself.

Paul O