Scottie Posted September 1, 2009 Posted September 1, 2009 Interesting how things catch your eye once you hear about it.Before this week, I had never heard that Jesus is God of the OT. I have now heard it 3 different times!Could someone give me a Readers Digest version of the reasons why LDS believe this? Is this an LDS only teaching, or is it common throughout all Christianity?
lukas_s Posted September 1, 2009 Posted September 1, 2009 John 8:58 is usually used as a proof text- "Before Abraham was, I am." This is footnoted as Exodus 3:14, where God reveals His name to be "I AM."
David T Posted September 1, 2009 Posted September 1, 2009 For the LDS reasons? Because He claims it in the Book of Mormon. "And it came to pass that the Lord spake unto them saying: Arise and come forth unto me, that ye may thrust your hands into my side, and also that ye may feel the prints of the nails in my hands and in my feet, that ye may know that I am the God of Israel, and the God of the whole earth, and have been slain for the sins of the world." (3 Nephi 11:13-14, among many others)As for scholarly reasons? Here's a whole non-LDS book filled with references that show not only that this is exactly how the earliest Christians viewed Him, but why, and how it fits in with the original Israelite Religion.
handys003 Posted September 1, 2009 Posted September 1, 2009 Exodus 3:13-15 13 And Moses said unto God, Behold, when I come unto the children of Israel, and shall say unto them, The God of your fathers hath sent me unto you; and they shall say to me, What is his name what shall I say unto them? 14 And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you. 15 And God said moreover unto Moses, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, The Lord God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, hath sent me unto you: this is my name for ever, and this is my memorial unto all generationsJohn 8: 56 Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad. 57 Then said the Jews unto him, Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham? 58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.No it's not commonly taught throughout Christianity. In fact we are the only church to teach this that I am aware of.
David T Posted September 1, 2009 Posted September 1, 2009 While I strongly believe the doctrine, I actually find the Exodus / John prooftext to be one of the weakest examples, for many textual reasons.
Scottie Posted September 1, 2009 Author Posted September 1, 2009 Is this pretty much agreed upon by Biblical scholars, or are there arguments against this?As of yet, I have never seen a specific teaching that didn't have a multitude of scriptures that support each conflicting view. I would imagine this is the same? Are there are scriptures to support Jesus as God as well as scriptures to support God as God?
Mola Ram Suda Ram Posted September 1, 2009 Posted September 1, 2009 Is this pretty much agreed upon by Biblical scholars, or are there arguments against this?As of yet, I have never seen a specific teaching that didn't have a multitude of scriptures that support each conflicting view. I would imagine this is the same? Are there are scriptures to support Jesus as God as well as scriptures to support God as God?Yes, The JW's whole argument is that Jehovah is God the Father. I have honeslty never understood how they came to taht understanding but they have.
lukas_s Posted September 1, 2009 Posted September 1, 2009 Yes, The JW's whole argument is that Jehovah is God the Father. I have honeslty never understood how they came to taht understanding but they have.I'm not sure I understand the issue. The LDS concept of the dichotomy between Elohim/Jehovah didn't become standardized until 1916, if I remember correctly. Before then, you can find all kinds of references, even from Joseph Smith, that equate Jehovah with the Father. Likewise, you can find many that equate Elohim with the Father, from that same time period.
Thunderfire Posted September 1, 2009 Posted September 1, 2009 The term â??angel of the Lordâ? is often distinguished as being different from any other angel in the Old Testament. As example, in Genesis (16:7-12) we find the â??angel of the Lordâ? speaking to Hagar in terms of what he will do as God and not as an angelic servant of God. In Genesis (22:9-12) we read that it was the â??angel of the Lordâ? who spoke to Abraham, stopping him from slaying his son Isaac saying, â??Now I know that you fear God, because you have not withheld your son from meâ??.Other references speak of this person being the â??angel of Godâ? (Genesis 21:17), the â??angel of Gods presence (Isaiah 63:9), and the â??messenger of the covenant (Malachi 3:1). In Judges (13:18) there is an interesting account of the â??angel of the Lordâ? visiting Manoah and his wife (parents of Samson), then ascending into heaven from the flames of a fire! So for many, this angel can be interpreted as the pre-incarnate Jesus Christ of the New Testament. This is because he never calls himself â??the Fatherâ? although he clearly has attributes of deity and speaks as one who has authority himself to act and make promises.Other examples of the â??angel of the Lordâ? visiting man include Gideon (Judges 6:11-14). Anyway, just some things to consider regarding the â??angel of the Lordâ? being the pre-incarnate Jesus Christ!
handys003 Posted September 1, 2009 Posted September 1, 2009 The term â??angel of the Lordâ? is often distinguished as being different from any other angel in the Old Testament. As example, in Genesis (16:7-12) we find the â??angel of the Lordâ? speaking to Hagar in terms of what he will do as God and not as an angelic servant of God. In Genesis (22:9-12) we read that it was the â??angel of the Lordâ? who spoke to Abraham, stopping him from slaying his son Isaac saying, â??Now I know that you fear God, because you have not withheld your son from meâ??.Other references speak of this person being the â??angel of Godâ? (Genesis 21:17), the â??angel of Gods presence (Isaiah 63:9), and the â??messenger of the covenant (Malachi 3:1). In Judges (13:18) there is an interesting account of the â??angel of the Lordâ? visiting Manoah and his wife (parents of Samson), then ascending into heaven from the flames of a fire! So for many, this angel can be interpreted as the pre-incarnate Jesus Christ of the New Testament. This is because he never calls himself â??the Fatherâ? although he clearly has attributes of deity and speaks as one who has authority himself to act and make promises.Other examples of the â??angel of the Lordâ? visiting man include Gideon (Judges 6:11-14). Anyway, just some things to consider regarding the â??angel of the Lordâ? being the pre-incarnate Jesus Christ! You may interpret this , but I disagree. I believe this to be the Holy Ghost the third personage of the Godhead as he was often refered to as the Holy Spirit as well.
Mola Ram Suda Ram Posted September 1, 2009 Posted September 1, 2009 Consider this verse of scripture.Hosea 13:44 Yet I am the Lord thy God from the land of Egypt, and thou shalt know no god but me: for there is no saviour beside me. I guess the JW's beleive that any time lord is found in the OT it should be translated as Jehovah. And God is a refrence to the Father to them. I would always use this verse when we would get into bashes.I know shame on me.SO in their bible it would read something like. Yet I am Jehovah they God from the land of Egypt, and thou shalt know no god but me: for there is no saviour besides me.We know from the NT that Christ is that saviour which makes this a direct link ot Jesus being Jehovah.
rockslider Posted September 1, 2009 Posted September 1, 2009 Iâ??m just glad he lightened up a bit in the NT, â?¦ he was a grumpy old creature in the OT, but seems to be tending back to some of his harsh OT ways of late?
AndyOne Posted September 1, 2009 Posted September 1, 2009 Before 1916 - it was a bit all over the map. In the 1836 dedication of the Kirtland temple (given by revelation), for example, Joseph Smith made no distinction between Jehovah and the Father. The Jesus-Jehovah connection actually helps understand the myriad references in the Book of Mormon to Jesus as the Father.
Mola Ram Suda Ram Posted September 1, 2009 Posted September 1, 2009 I'm not sure I understand the issue. The LDS concept of the dichotomy between Elohim/Jehovah didn't become standardized until 1916, if I remember correctly. Before then, you can find all kinds of references, even from Joseph Smith, that equate Jehovah with the Father. Likewise, you can find many that equate Elohim with the Father, from that same time period.Well if you look at it as a title then yes. Esp in lite of John 5:19 and the KFD.But as far as the standard is concerned it isn't taught like that as it can be quite confusing if the proper context is not understood. In the context of this thread LDS doctrine is not that Jehovah = God the Father.
mysteryman Posted September 1, 2009 Posted September 1, 2009 Interesting how things catch your eye once you hear about it.Before this week, I had never heard that Jesus is God of the OT. I have now heard it 3 different times!Could someone give me a Readers Digest version of the reasons why LDS believe this? Is this an LDS only teaching, or is it common throughout all Christianity?I am surprised you have never heard this, it is pretty standard teaching for todays LDS. But the identity of Jehovah and Elohim took years of development. During Joseph Smith's lifetime, as others have stated, it is difficult to pin down. The Kirtland dedication indicates Jehovah is the Father. Early LDS hymns also stated Jehovah as the Father. After Smith's death, the references are again confusing. Young of course taught that Adam is God the father and father of Jesus. Not until 1916 when the FP issued a declaration on God did the modern LDS belief become standardized. The Book of Mormon is no help since Gods nature is ambiguous with some modalist teachings creeping in. The 1916 document is much like the Nicene Creed, a doctrine that came by way of development. As for other Christians, most would believe in trinitarianism so of course they would agree that Jesus was God of the OT.
lukas_s Posted September 1, 2009 Posted September 1, 2009 Well if you look at it as a title then yes. Esp in lite of John 5:19 and the KFD.But as far as the standard is concerned it isn't taught like that as it can be quite confusing if the proper context is not understood. In the context of this thread LDS doctrine is not that Jehovah = God the Father.It was certainly not looked at as a name-title in the early days of the Church. I think the multitude of early-restoration period references linking Jehovah as the same being as the Father attest to that.Again, it wasn't until 1916 that the Church officially equated Jehovah with the premortal Jesus Christ, and Elohim with God the Father. So, simply faulting the Watchtower Society for thinking Jehovah to be the Father is wrong, IMO, because many Saints, even the Prophet Joseph, thought the same thing.
etana Posted September 1, 2009 Posted September 1, 2009 Jesus himself alludes to Psalm 110 with Jehovah being the Father and himself invited to sit on Jehovah's right side. This is recorded in 3 out of the four gospels. In 3rd Nephi when the Father introduces his Son, he is introduced as "...in whom I have glorified my name". So it is not as simple as many of us make it sound sometimes. However, the easy part is that in all dispensations, Saints have worshiped the Father through the mediation of the Son.
Brenda Posted September 1, 2009 Posted September 1, 2009 Iâ??m just glad he lightened up a bit in the NT, â?¦ he was a grumpy old creature in the OT, but seems to be tending back to some of his harsh OT ways of late?Remember, the Bible was written by prophets. So we see it all through their eyes, written thousands of years ago. Times were very different then. Perhaps, it was their custom, or show of respect and/or reverence, to portray God in a sterner sense. Just a thought.
Deborah Posted September 2, 2009 Posted September 2, 2009 We have the very clear account in Ether 3 where the Lord (Jehovah) shows himself to the brother of Jared and proclaims 14 Behold, I am he who was prepared from the foundation of the world to redeem my people. Behold, I am Jesus Christ. I am the Father and the Son. In me shall all mankind have life, and that eternally, even they who shall believe on my name; and they shall become my sons and my daughters. 15 And never have I showed myself unto man whom I have created, for never has man believed in me as thou hast. Seest thou that ye are created after mine own image? Yea, even all men were created in the beginning after mine own image. 16 Behold, this body, which ye now behold, is the body of my spirit; and man have I created after the body of my spirit; and even as I appear unto thee to be in the spirit will I appear unto my people in the flesh. Jesus after all is creator of this world and is the one who has authority of it under the Father, Elohim. I do find it interesting that many who do a cursory reading of the OT find the Jehovah to be harsh and unforgiving in contrast to the image the see in Christ in the NT. However, I have heard church scholars talk about the mercy and love they see in the Jehovah of the OT. Furthermore, the people were a great deal more stubborn and rebellious and as such were living the lesser law rather than the law Jehovah wanted to give them through Moses.
changed Posted September 2, 2009 Posted September 2, 2009 cut-n-paste Premortal existence of Christ: The Lord appeared unto Abram, Gen. 12:7 (Gen. 17:1; 18:1; Abr. 2:6â??. The Lord spoke unto Moses face to face, Ex. 33:11 (Deut. 34:10; Moses 1:1â??2). I saw the Lord standing upon the altar, Amos 9:1. In the beginning, the Word was with God. And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, John 1:1, 14 (1 Jn. 1:1â??3). Before Abraham was, I am, John 8:58. Glorify thou me with the glory which I had with thee before the world was, John 17:5. Isaiah verily saw my Redeemer as I and my brother Jacob have seen him, 2 Ne. 11:2â??3. On the morrow come I into the world, 3 Ne. 1:12â??14. Christ was before the world began, 3 Ne. 26:5 (John 6:62). As I appear unto thee will I appear unto my people in the flesh, Ether 3:14â??17. Enoch saw the Lord and walked with him, D&C 107:48â??49. My Beloved Son, which was my Beloved and Chosen from the beginning, Moses 4:2. The Lord said: Whom shall I send? And one answered like unto the Son of Man: Here am I, send me, Abr. 3:27.(Guide to the Scriptures | J Jesus Christ.:Premortal existence of Christ)
mysteryman Posted September 2, 2009 Posted September 2, 2009 We have the very clear account in Ether 3 where the Lord (Jehovah) shows himself to the brother of Jared and proclaims Jesus after all is creator of this world and is the one who has authority of it under the Father, Elohim. There are some problems with your approach here. The "Lord" does appear to the brother of Jared, but the "Lord" does not identify himself as Jehovah. Although in the KJV Bible, the word Jehovah or Yahweh is more often translated as Lord, we shouldn't assume Lord means the same thing in the Book of Mormon. Furthermore this passage is very modalist in its message, Jesus idetifies himself as the Father and the Son period, it is not given the qualifications you give it that Jesus "is creator of this world and is the one who has authority of it under the Father, Elohim." Jesus says that he IS the Father as well as the Son, which makes sense to modalist thinking that the Father himself came down as the Son. That Jesus is the son of Elohim (which is a title and not a name anyway), is not even remotely alluded to in the passage of Ether. What many Mormons do now is force current Mormon theology into the Book of Mormon for compatibility.I do find it interesting that many who do a cursory reading of the OT find the Jehovah to be harsh and unforgiving in contrast to the image the see in Christ in the NT. However, I have heard church scholars talk about the mercy and love they see in the Jehovah of the OT. Furthermore, the people were a great deal more stubborn and rebellious and as such were living the lesser law rather than the law Jehovah wanted to give them through Moses.Why do you think the people were more stubborn? The God of the Old Testament is many times portrayed as a jealous, angry, wrathful, and an absolute control freak. He was also not above murder in ordering the genocide of the people the Israelites conquered. Luckily most people (other than terrorists) have moved past such primitive ways of thinking.
Cold Steel Posted September 2, 2009 Posted September 2, 2009 Could someone give me a Readers Digest version of the reasons why LDS believe this...or is it common throughout all Christianity? When God created man, the Father walked and talked with man and had an open relationship with him. But once man sinned against the Father, the Father could no longer speak to man, or vice versa, without an intercessor. That intercessor was Jehovah/Jesus. When God spoke to Moses, it was Jehovah. When he spoke to Enoch, Abraham, Noah and the brother of Jared, he was Jehovah. The Father only appears to man to say, "This is my Beloved Son, hear Him." Once Adam-ondi-Ahman occurs, and once the keys are all restored to Jesus, whose right it is to rule, then Jesus will vanquish Satan and, at the end of the Millennium, he will turn it all back to the Father, who will accept the work, and it will pass into perfection and part of His glory. Then, too, because of the Atonement, we also will be like Jesus and inherit all that the Father has.Until then, though, the Father does not commune directly with man â?? only to bear witness of the Son. That's why, in the first vision, it's the Son that talks about the creeds and the churches and so forth.
BCSpace Posted September 2, 2009 Posted September 2, 2009 Interesting how things catch your eye once you hear about it.Before this week, I had never heard that Jesus is God of the OT. I have now heard it 3 different times!Could someone give me a Readers Digest version of the reasons why LDS believe this? Is this an LDS only teaching, or is it common throughout all Christianity? Jesus is Jehovah.
Ron Beron Posted September 2, 2009 Posted September 2, 2009 John 8:58 is usually used as a proof text- "Before Abraham was, I am." This is footnoted as Exodus 3:14, where God reveals His name to be "I AM."With all respect I think that John points more to the pre-existence of Jesus rather than to his pre-existent divinity which the BofM does better. One factor it does point up is the pronouncement of his pre-existence which is, in itself, a blasphemous thing for Jesus to have said. The Exodus remark of אהיה אשר אהיה, or Ehyeh asher ehyeh is more of a play on words meaning, "I AM YA". In contrast John points more to the simple comment of ego eimi or simply "Before Abraham was, I, the Christ, the Son of God, existed." Notice the placement of the comma.
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