Doctrine and Covenants 163

[Thunderfire]

Pa Pa,

This was presented to the church by our current Prophet/President. As you notice, our Doctrine and Covenants has 163 sections. At each World Conference, many of the people "expect" a new revelation and become concerned when one is not presented.

This may seem odd to some, but when God has more light and truth to reveal, we hunger for more. We fast and pray seeking for God to speak to us the feelings of his heart

[volgadon]

Thunderfire, I didn't mean you, I meant this section 163.

[The Nehor]

Please do not see my following comments as being negative toward another.

No worries.

I speak only to the Community of Christ. When you read this "revelation", see if from the eyes of those called to be an open, transparent fellowship of believers in Jesus Christ.Everything we do is in the open.

The LDS faith does not subscribe to this. Some of our meetings are before the world, some are not. Some things are kept sacred and not shared while others are not. There are things I know that I will share with anyone, some I will share with only those close to me in the same faith, and some I have never told anyone.

It was never about getting people to make a committment with a denomination. It was totally about bringing people into his living presence.

My scriptures make it clear that there is only one way to receive a fulness of what he has to give. My D&C calls other denominations 'dead works'. While I do not vilify those who choose or believe otherwise I don't apologize for this stance.

Yes, we are told that the Lord "disciplines" those he loves (Hebrews 12:5), but he also opens his heart to those who long for his heart. This is what we "hear" in this revelation and the language the Lord is speaking.

I prefer the revelations along the lines of, "Repent, for the day of the Lord is at hand". I find in my faith great comfort but it comes mingled with fear/terror. While perfect love casts out all fear I do not love perfectly yet. When the Apostles began to preach the Gospel it was not first a message of peace; it was a message of condemnation. Only then could they call out in fear and ask what they could do. I first began to understand what Christ was offering the first time I was taught the horror of sin. Before that he was a sweet story and a person who asked me to be good. When I came to realize more fully that there was a Law and that I was violating it on a daily basis and that every infraction made my soul more and more fit for hell...that was when the atonement started making sense.

We are told, "Generously share the invitation, ministries, and sacraments through which people can encounter the Living Christ who heals and reconciles through redemptive relationships in sacred community". We are told to "share the peace of Jesus Christ in all its dimensions".

I'm not clear on what 'redemptive relationships in sacred community' means.

Together this leads us to be a people introducing the world to the complete Jesus Christ. To use the ministries of the church in allowing people to experience the wisdom, patience, mercy, and healing spirit of the one whose name is over the door!

I'm not sure anyone except Christ can introduce the full Christ but the rest we agree on.

IN MY OPINION, it is possible to do church work which doesn't benefit the Lord.

Agreed.

But it's impossible to do the work of the Lord which doesn't benefit the church.

Mostly agree.

So for me, the denomination MUST be secondary to the Lord and must never become our primary focus.

I have no argument with that.

If that happens, it is no different than an idol or object of worship.

In my experience the Church rarely becomes an idol. More often one's position or appearance in Church becomes an idol. Many respectable churchgoers worship at the altar of their own standing.

But when seen as a tool in the Lord's hand, a "school for exploratory living with him", and how the sacraments an ministries are set forth for developing persons of eternal character, we can appreciate the church for what it "does" in our building of relationships with Jesus and with each other.

When I see the Church as an aide for me to obey my God I think I'm in the best position.

[Cold Steel]

A note of clarification. The entry known as the D&C 163 is not really regarded as a "revelation" as much as an inspired policy statement. According to President Veazey, he wrote this after a period of meditation and prayer. It doesn't use any words that would characterize it as actually being the direct word of God. There are no "it is my will that you should...." as in earlier "revelations" by past RLDS presidents. In Veazey's words:

Striving to be open to the guidance of the Spirit, while attempting to lay aside my own preconceived notions, has been a challenging but necessary learning experience. And, as I have sought to perceive Godâ??s will for the church through prayer, study, and listening for the Creatorâ??s voice in the voices of the faith community, I have been blessed by the Spirit in various, sometimes surprising ways.

The words and images that follow have been birthed through much struggle, not because of any lack of inspiration, but because of the limitations of the human vessel entrusted with responsibility for articulating divine encounter. Attempting to communicate in words what is ultimately beyond words always leaves one with a sense of incompleteness. Added to this is the challenge of creating phrases that can be translated into the languages of the international church without loss of essential meanings. Fortunately, we have the promise that one of the primary functions of the Holy Spirit is to bear witness of divine truth beyond the confines of language and culture.

Others who witnessed revelations coming to Joseph Smith often said he bowed his head for a few moments, his face described as contemplative, or relaxed (some said childlike). It wasn't for a long time, but he often did this before making an authoritative pronouncement. Also, when Lorenzo Snow was told by the Lord to go to St. George, he reportedly had no idea what he would say upon his arrival. He was, in fact, on his feet and stammering for words when he became quiet, his eyes seemingly transfixed as if in a trance. His countenance was clear and then it was gone. He suddenly knew what to say, and that's when he delivered his revelation on tithing as it related to the terrible drought. People paid their tithing, the rains came and the church came out of debt.

When Joseph Smith and Sidney Rigdon saw the vision on the Three Degrees of Glory, it lasted more than an hour. Although there were others in the room, they could not see the vision or hear the words being spoken to the prophets, though they said Joseph's and Sidney's faces shone as though illuminated.

Veazey, I imagine, prayed and then wrote his thoughts and feelings. Alas, however, in my view they ultimately proved to be his own and no other's. The Lord seemed wholly absent from his words.

[Cold Steel]

As you notice, our Doctrine and Covenants has 163 sections. At each World Conference, many of the people "expect" a new revelation and become concerned when one is not presented.

Is there somewhere online where we can go to read the other 162 sections? I could only find 163. Thanx.

[Thunderfire]

A note of clarification. The entry known as the D&C 163 is not really regarded as a "revelation" as much as an inspired policy statement. According to President Veazey, he wrote this after a period of meditation and prayer. It doesn't use any words that would characterize it as actually being the direct word of God. There are no "it is my will that you should...." as in earlier "revelations" by past RLDS presidents.

You bring up a good point here! We are taught that there is "revelation" and "words of counsel" which comes to us from God. The difference is that we see "revelation" as something new which God is revealing for the first time to mankind. Conversely, "words of counsel" can be seen as God reminding us of our promises made, bringing again to the forefront things of importance shared in times past, chastisement or encouragement when necessary, and/or clarification when we as a people failed to grasp what has been given in days past.

This is a great example of â??words of counselâ? where our section (156) would be seen as new revelation (women in the priesthood). President Veazey attended our First Quorum of Seventy Retreat about a year before he brought forth this "inspired document" to the church. He shared with us how God was moving upon him and presented twelve (12) points which God inspired him to write down (which was the foundation to this counsel). We as a quorum discussed these things in the spirit of fasting and prayer with the Prophet/President of the Church. I am amazed with his humility to be so open with us and how this entire process moved upon him (and us).

You see, something very important for us is to not merely be a church â??with a prophetâ?, but to become a prophetic people. This is a HUGE shift in belief and practice from that of the early church. And something which we are still growing in.

[Obiwan]

Isn't this the "revelation" by the "prophet" of the COC that I could easily tell was not from God (was instead simply a despirate attempt to unite the Church during a "troubled" time in COC history), and then shortly later this "prophet" RESIGNS as President of the COC, thus certainly even more convincing it was a false prophecy?

It's nicely "sentimental", but it is nothing like previous revelations/scripture. Clearly a revelation from the man himself, not actually from God.

[Joseph Antley]

Isn't this the "revelation" by the "prophet" of the COC that I could easily tell was not from God (was instead simply a despirate attempt to unite the Church during a "troubled" time in COC history), and then shortly later this "prophet" RESIGNS as President of the COC, thus certainly even more convincing it was a false prophecy?

It's nicely "sentimental", but it is nothing like previous revelations/scripture. Clearly a revelation from the man himself, not actually from God.

Aren't these the same "scare quotes" that we "Latter-day Saints" are always "complaining" about?

I don't like 'em.

[Obiwan]

Pa Pa,

This was presented to the church by our current Prophet/President. As you notice, our Doctrine and Covenants has 163 sections. At each World Conference, many of the people "expect" a new revelation and become concerned when one is not presented.

This may seem odd to some, but when God has more light and truth to reveal, we hunger for more. We fast and pray seeking for God to speak to us the feelings of his heart

You "hunger for more", but it is odd to me that you "reject" some of the most beautiful revelations and doctrines of the restoration, the crowning jewels of the restoration, that is concerning Celestial Marriage and Temple Work. Joseph wasn't some sort of sinner wicked man when he revealed these things, which were indeed established and completed in the Nauvoo period. "Feelings of his heart"....??? Seems he did express them to you/us through these things, yet you reject them. I mean, the couple of instances I finally understood Plural Marriage/Polygamy is the day I really understood God's love for ALL of his children. It wasn't sex or lust, it was love the deepest kind.

[Obiwan]

Pa Pa,

This was presented to the church by our current Prophet/President. As you notice, our Doctrine and Covenants has 163 sections. At each World Conference, many of the people "expect" a new revelation and become concerned when one is not presented.

This may seem odd to some, but when God has more light and truth to reveal, we hunger for more. We fast and pray seeking for God to speak to us the feelings of his heart

You "hunger for more", but it is odd to me that you "reject" some of the most beautiful revelations and doctrines of the restoration, the crowning jewels of the restoration, that is concerning Celestial Marriage and Temple Work. Joseph wasn't some sort of sinner wicked man when he revealed these things, which were indeed established and completed in the Nauvoo period. "Feelings of his heart"....??? Seems he did express them to you/us through these things, yet you reject them. I mean, the couple of instances I finally understood Plural Marriage/Polygamy is the day I really understood God's love for ALL of his children. It wasn't sex or lust, it was love the deepest kind.

[Thunderfire]

You "hunger for more", but it is odd to me that you "reject" some of the most beautiful revelations and doctrines of the restoration, the crowning jewels of the restoration, that is concerning Celestial Marriage and Temple Work. Joseph wasn't some sort of sinner wicked man when he revealed these things, which were indeed established and completed in the Nauvoo period. "Feelings of his heart"....??? Seems he did express them to you/us through these things, yet you reject them. I mean, the couple of instances I finally understood Plural Marriage/Polygamy is the day I really understood God's love for ALL of his children. It wasn't sex or lust, it was love the deepest kind.

Hello Obiwan,

Thank you for the comment and opportunity to respond.

Please understand that this is just MY OPINION. I do not believe that the concepts of Celestial Marriage and Temple work are the crowning jewels of the Restoration Movement. For me, the greatest thing revealed through the Restoration Movement was God's desire to fully restore our potential for "relationship with Jesus Christ". For us, Jesus was not to be merely seen from the eyes of the crucifix, but as our Creator, Savior, Elder brother, and friend. This is vital, we can develop deep spiritual fellowship with our God and this is the message of what was being restored.

Again for me, when we talk about Celestial Marriage and Temple work we are looking only "at ourselves". Yet when we look at Jesus as our first love, we see that everything is about him. As example, any priesthood authority I may have is not Gods endorsement of "me", it is his endorsement of himself. What God revealed through the Restoration (again my opinion) was a renewed understanding in how Jesus is the bridegroom and "we" are his bride. This represents a true Celestial marriage relationship! It was never about a man and a woman for all eternity, but between Jesus and each of us as co-heirs in all he has.

So then Temple work (for me) is not about preparing for heaven and what we may receive or accomplish on the "other side", rather it is preparing for the work laid out before us now! We are to assist the Father in his great work of Kingdom building and we need the ministries which flow from the temple to prepare us for the works Jesus did leading to greater works.

[Obiwan]

Hello Obiwan,

Thank you for the comment and opportunity to respond.

Please understand that this is just MY OPINION. I do not believe that the concepts of Celestial Marriage and Temple work are the crowning jewels of the Restoration Movement. For me, the greatest thing revealed through the Restoration Movement was God's desire to fully restore our potential for "relationship with Jesus Christ". For us, Jesus was not to be merely seen from the eyes of the crucifix, but as our Creator, Savior, Elder brother, and friend. This is vital, we can develop deep spiritual fellowship with our God and this is the message of what was being restored.

Well, LDS wouldn't disagree as to the important things as to Christ your speaking of, but, I'm mentioning "crowning jewels" in the sense that it's the iceing on the cake, doctrine which puts it all together. Crowning acheivements of the restoration, yet, it is all ignored and even ridiculed by the COC.

Again for me, when we talk about Celestial Marriage and Temple work we are looking only "at ourselves". Yet when we look at Jesus as our first love, we see that everything is about him. As example, any priesthood authority I may have is not Gods endorsement of "me", it is his endorsement of himself. What God revealed through the Restoration (again my opinion) was a renewed understanding in how Jesus is the bridegroom and "we" are his bride. This represents a true Celestial marriage relationship! It was never about a man and a woman for all eternity, but between Jesus and each of us as co-heirs in all he has.

Well, first I would disagree with your characterization that Temple Work is about "ourselves", it's completely the opposite. It's selfless service through and through, touching the heavens. Charity is all about the Temple. It's also fullfilling command and prophecy, turning the hearts to the fathers and the hearts of the fathers to the children.

No doubt that there is a renewed understanding between Christ and us, but God is about helping us return to him, and restored Celestial principles are KEY to that process. But anyway.

So then Temple work (for me) is not about preparing for heaven and what we may receive or accomplish on the "other side", rather it is preparing for the work laid out before us now! We are to assist the Father in his great work of Kingdom building and we need the ministries which flow from the temple to prepare us for the works Jesus did leading to greater works.

Well, LDS wouldn't really disagree with this either..... The Temple is about service for the living and the dead, work in building the Kingdom within and without. But, again, you guy's don't have the Temple as God through Joseph restored, so, no concern there for you?

[Obiwan]

Aren't these the same "scare quotes" that we "Latter-day Saints" are always "complaining" about?

I don't like 'em.

"Scare quotes".... hee hee. I'm just sounding outloud my memory for verification, and my opinion of the new "counsel/revelation/scripture" according to the COC.

Reading the D&C was key to my conversion, because if the Restoration was really God's, and Joseph was his prophet, the D&C was supposudly God speaking "today", not yesterday, so I studied it well to see if it actually was God's Word compared to other scripture, and not in fact a man's word.

Therefore, I consider myself a bit qualified on whether additional revelation is of God or of man. So, I think I'm allowed to give my opinion of the work. Hardly "scare quotes", simply my view that it's not from God, period. I allow people to believe the same about us, that's their agency. But, I don't allow bearing false witness, and I haven't done so, so sorry, no "scare quotes" here. But, your free to your view I guess.

[Saint Sinner]

Ive read countless revelations and seen the power and majesty behind them. Heck, Ive seen felt the Spirit testify in some non scriptures. They have been light.

That section, however, was not light. There was no power with it. I have no doubt that there is good counsel in it to some degree. but it just doesnt feel like anything Joseph ever revealed. Where is the Spirit? Where is the light?

I had to also comment on this:

What on earth are you talking about? that verse didnt provide any sort of mission whatsoever, let alone an amazing one. Discern and embrace the meaning of Community of Christ? Is it really that difficult to understand? Maybe to conceptualize, but understand? Is that a mission? Doesnt seem like one. Maybe i just have a different idea of what a mission is.

I do need to ask. How can you build Zion without the authority to do so?

The Community of Christ stands out far more than simply the "Church of Jesus Christ", "The Church of Christ", "The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints", "The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints", and The Reorganized Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints".

First, there is the Community. In my experience with my family members of the Community of Christ, they are far more a community of compassionate, devoted, loving, joyful and peaceful group of Restoration Saints than any other Restoration group can claim. They may not have the money of some other churches but they are successful. BY was wrong when he said that they will not prevail. They are prevailing. They are reaching out to the broken, the beaten and the damned. Not just monetarily or with food. They are giving spiritual food to hungry nations and providing them with the tools to bring about Zion. They avoid authoritarianism, elitism, arrogance, narcissism, and tyranny. They promote egalitarianism, equality, love, charity, hope, etc. They are a body governed church with a hierarchy and not a hierarchy governed church.

Christ is the foremost center of their worship. They quote the teachings and actions of Jesus far more than other Restoration church. They are not focused solely on their modern prophets but promote Jesus of Nazareth and the embodiment of all that Jesus is.

This I love. This I promote as well.

Saint Sinner

[lukas_s]

I think it's a beautiful passage of scripture.

I'm also not sure what all the complaining about it "not sounding" like a revelation is about. Seems pompous to me. Because the CoC prophet doesn't pen revelations like Joseph Smith did it can't be a real revelation? Get real. Would it satisfy any of you naysayers if Section 163 of the CoC D&C was in King James English to make it "sound" a bit more like a revelation?

For the kind of weight us LDS put on continuing revelation, and the belief that revelation from God is available to all men, there sure seems to be a lot of people here willing to deny another brother in Christ that privilege. I see nothing in this revelation that is not within the scope of the revelation we should all be receiving from the Lord.

Just my $.02

[Saint Sinner]

Just a point of clarification. I did not start this thread, but I participated in it. With all due respect for the one starting this thread, I would never do that, believing it would show disrespect going to someone elseâ??s house and presenting revelation given to another.

I hope you accept my beliefs and comments in the spirit in which it is given! Forgive me if some of this seemed "short". I wanted to show respect for all you had written, but was concerned with this becoming too long.

I started the thread. Not so much as a presentation of revelation but as something I felt compelled to comment on. I respect the revelation and its revelator. I see it as an outreach to many who struggle. I find in it the Love of Christ. This not to undermine LDS believers because the LDS is my heritage and I love and respect it no matter its flaws.

I was just hoping for further enlightenment for others as I have felt.

Saint Sinner

[Saint Sinner]

I have read the doctrine and covenants many times as Joseph Smith Received them. Meaning the edition that the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints publishes.

I'm sorry to say, but I find this so called revelation so watered down that it doesn't match the tone or power of the revelations as found in the Doctrine and Covenants. The God I listen to in the D&C is already encouraging, powerful, intolerant of sin, and promises to burn the wicked. Also he has already given the church a name (Did he change his mind?).

The language of this revelation completely contradicts the tone, tenor, style and substance of what was revealed to Joseph Smith.

I think the Community of Christ Church has a real disconnect with the Prophet Joseph Smith. I think they are really trying to marginalize him and his teachings: In effect trying to hoist their church onto another foundation.

This is probably why there are no other sections added to the LDS D&C. Because no one could or can speak with such 'power'. But then again, thats my opinion.

Saint Sinner

[Saint Sinner]

Isn't this the "revelation" by the "prophet" of the COC that I could easily tell was not from God (was instead simply a despirate attempt to unite the Church during a "troubled" time in COC history), and then shortly later this "prophet" RESIGNS as President of the COC, thus certainly even more convincing it was a false prophecy?

It's nicely "sentimental", but it is nothing like previous revelations/scripture. Clearly a revelation from the man himself, not actually from God.

I like how you expect all revelations to sound exactly like those of Joseph. A poor expectation at most. Your opinion is your opinion.

Therefore, I consider myself a bit qualified on whether additional revelation is of God or of man. So, I think I'm allowed to give my opinion of the work. Hardly "scare quotes", simply my view that it's not from God, period. I allow people to believe the same about us, that's their agency. But, I don't allow bearing false witness, and I haven't done so, so sorry, no "scare quotes" here. But, your free to your view I guess.

I'm glad your narcissism, based on your history with your 'conversion', makes you qualified.

I like the fact that the Prophet Stephen Veazey spoke his words of counsel in humility and out of concern for the CoC and the welfare of the church members and non-church members.

Saint Sinner

[Cold Steel]

If there was a reason to add new revelation, you can bet it would be added. President Kimball once said that revelations are received, written and cataloged in the records of the church. To those who want new doctrine, watch what you ask for. Recall that with all the light the King Follett Discourse has brought us, we routinely are berated by those who find it threatening to their belief systems. We have enough for now. Individual insights can be meted out as needed if you want more.

D&C 163 is widely quoted in the CoC community and many people are enthusiastic over its message. But CoC members should know that it's a far cry from LDS theology, and they shouldn't be too disappointed if the LDS community does not react like their own. As I said elsewhere, we've grown too far apart. We can't pretend to embrace Jesus' diversity and inclusiveness when our own scriptures, from the days of Joseph Smith on to the present, are at odds with it.

This is not disrespect, but a simple matter of disagreement.

If President Monson submitted it to the church for inclusion into our Doctrine & Covenants, I and many others would write them and ask them to have the drinking water checked.

[Obiwan]

I like how you expect all revelations to sound exactly like those of Joseph. A poor expectation at most. Your opinion is your opinion.

Actually, to be accurate, instead of what you believe in your own mind, I expects "revelations" to actually look like GODS, rather than mans. Certainly not simply Joseph. Anyone that really know's scripture, knows there are voices therein. Yes, the authors voice can be therein slightly, but the main voice you should be seeing is "Gods", after all, it's supposed to be from God. Case in point, the revelations and counsel added to the D&C after Joseph clearly still are in God's voice, thus, I trust them partially because of this. When I read the COC "revelation", I see nothing but the man who gave it. I don't see God's voice. I see something that could have came from Ghandi or the Dali Lama. My view from experience, sorry if you can't respect that.

I'm glad your narcissism, based on your history with your 'conversion', makes you qualified.

Systematic learning line upon line precept upon precept and with proper "experience" is not "narcissim", it's Wisdom.

I like the fact that the Prophet Stephen Veazey spoke his words of counsel in humility and out of concern for the CoC and the welfare of the church members and non-church members.

Saint Sinner

Like I said, it was nicely sentimental and true likely appropriate for them given their turbulence at the time, but not from God, pure and simple in my view. Your free to have a different view. Sure, I believe God guides and teaches others, but I don't believe he does so in all things, especially on an "institutional" level. That Church is not Gods, it is a perversion of the true way in my view, no different than any other man-made religion. The men who started it and continued it rejected the Prophet, but most importantly GOD HIMSELF by rejecting the revelations, and took power for themselves. The moment they left the Church, they lost all authority they originally might of had, let alone their rejection of key restoration revelations and teachings that were/are most certainly from God.

Anyway, too each his own.... That's my view though.

[Thunderfire]

I started the thread. Not so much as a presentation of revelation but as something I felt compelled to comment on. I respect the revelation and its revelator. I see it as an outreach to many who struggle. I find in it the Love of Christ. This not to undermine LDS believers because the LDS is my heritage and I love and respect it no matter its flaws.

I was just hoping for further enlightenment for others as I have felt.

Saint Sinner

Hello Saint Sinner,

I am so very sorry if I offended you and I ask for your forgiveness. It touches my heart deeply that these words spoke to you and that you felt inspired to share them elsewhere. I for one have witnessed some very gifted prophets outside of the Community of Christ and I try to remain humble so that I can hear the words God is speaking wherever they may come. It has amazed me the number of prophets the Lord has raised up who are revealing what he is doing in our day!

Thank you again for your kind words and I pray the greatest of blessings upon you and your family...

[Obiwan]

This is probably why there are no other sections added to the LDS D&C. Because no one could or can speak with such 'power'. But then again, thats my opinion.

Saint Sinner

Your seemed to have forgotten D&C 138 as well as Official Declarations 1 & 2. While the declarations are not revelations themselves, they are declaring the will of God in the matter spoken of for the Church itself. The revelations were received separately.

[The Nehor]

I think it's a beautiful passage of scripture.

I think it's beautiful but not scripture.

I'm also not sure what all the complaining about it "not sounding" like a revelation is about.

It's not complaining; it's a statement.

Seems pompous to me.

Perhaps to you but I'm under commandment to discern what is real revelation. Fulfilling this is not arrogance; it's obedience.

Because the CoC prophet doesn't pen revelations like Joseph Smith did it can't be a real revelation?

That's not the reason.

Get real.

Still tangible.

Would it satisfy any of you naysayers if Section 163 of the CoC D&C was in King James English to make it "sound" a bit more like a revelation?

Nope, I've read lots of things in King James English that aren't revelation. I've read and heard revelation given in modern English.

For the kind of weight us LDS put on continuing revelation, and the belief that revelation from God is available to all men, there sure seems to be a lot of people here willing to deny another brother in Christ that privilege.

Saying that something is not revelation means that someone CAN'T get revelation? Take your own advice: get real.

I see nothing in this revelation that is not within the scope of the revelation we should all be receiving from the Lord.

I've never received or heard of a legitimate revelation that read anything like it. Scripture and revelation are bracing. They force you to do something. This passage didn't strike me, didn't ask anything of me, didn't teach me of the nature of God; all I got was the sweet nothings of liberal religion. I would challenge anyone to produce something like it in the Doctrine and Covenants or the Book of Mormon.