The Trinity

[Mars]

Semantics.

Mudcat: When you say "Elohim" to a faithful LDS, the odds are good that he/she will assume you mean God the Father. When you say "Jehovah," the odds are equally good that he/shee will assume you mean Jesus Christ. We do believe that Jesus Christ was the God of Israel (see Exodus 3:14 and John 8:58ish)

I like The Monk's posts and tend to agree with him.

[Lightbearer]

So I suppose I am safe in saying that LDS don't think that Elohim, actually means the Father, it can mean other things?

Seems Jesus could be considered Elohim.

What about the Holy Spirit, could he be considered Elohim as well?

I suppose I would like to know what Elohim actually means to LDS.

I cannot speak for the other LDS on this board or elsewhere, but this is what the Church teaches, it is in a priesthood manual so I think that does give it a little more weight than the speculations of random scholars and apologists:

(â??Chapter 40: The Father and the Son,â? Teachings of Presidents of the Church: Joseph F. Smith, 353)"God has a tabernacle of flesh and bone. He is an organized being just as we are, who are now in the flesh. â?¦ We are the children of God. He is an eternal being, without beginning of days or end of years. He always was, he is, he always will be.

I do not believe in the doctrine held by some that God is only a Spirit and that he is of such a nature that he fills the immensity of space, and is everywhere present in person, or without person, for I can not conceive it possible that God could be a person, if he filled the immensity of space and was everywhere present at the same time. It is unreasonable, a physical, a theological inconsistency, to imagine that even God the eternal Father would be in two places, as an individual, at the same moment. It is impossible. But his power extends throughout the immensity of space. His power extends to all his creations, and his knowledge comprehends them all, and he governs them all and he knows all.

God the Eternal Father, whom we designate by the exalted name-title â??Elohim,â? is the literal Parent of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, and of the spirits of the human race. Elohim is the Father in every sense in which Jesus Christ is so designated, and distinctively He is the Father of spirits.

[We] pray unto the Father of our Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ, in whose image and likeness we are made, or were born into the world, and in whose likeness and image we are, for we are Godâ??s children, and therefore must resemble his Son in person, and also spiritually, so far as we will obey the principles of the gospel of eternal truth. For, we were foreordained â?¦ to become conformed to his likeness through the wise and proper use of our free agency.

God, the eternal Father, is constantly mindful of you. He is mindful of his people throughout all this land, and he will reward you according to your faithfulness in observing the laws of righteousness and of truth. "

I think this answers the question quite well but I leave the link for further reading: "The Father and the Son" Hope this helps.

[The_Monk]

I disagree. It says that Jesus Christ is "also a God", meaning that there are at least two gods, meaning a plurality of gods, meaning more than one God, meaning polytheism.

polytheism –noun

the doctrine of or belief in more than one god or in many gods.

Then I guess Israelites, Jews, and Christians were polytheists, using your reductionist terminology. but gosh, thanks for defining polytheism for me. I didn't know.

Go back and read my earlier quotes from actual scholars of religion. They find it quite difficult to define the terms.

[Joseph Antley]

Then I guess Israelites, Jews, and Christians were polytheists, using your reductionist terminology. but gosh, thanks for defining polytheism for me. I didn't know.

Go back and read my earlier quotes from actual scholars of religion. They find it quite difficult to define the terms.

I didn't mean to insinuate that you didn't know what polytheist meant.

Regardless, under the dictionary's definition of the word, Mormons are polytheists.

(Of course, under the dictionary's definition of the word, Mormons are also monotheists.)

Edited to add: Absolutely ancient Israelites and some early Christians were polytheists.

[Cold Steel]

I disagree. It says that Jesus Christ is "also a God", meaning that there are at least two gods, meaning a plurality of gods, meaning more than one God, meaning polytheism. polytheism â??noun: the doctrine of, or belief in, more than one god or in many gods.

There is a problem here. First, one must define the terms. What is "God"? We LDS say that God is the governing body of the Universe. And in this, "mainstream" Christians generally agree. But the body, of necessity, must include more than one entity, or being. Mainstream Christians believe God is comprised of a "trinity" â?? three distinct entities made up of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit. We Latter-day Saints, on the other hand, are more inclusive. We include all beings who attain all power, all glory and all perfection by becoming co-heirs with Jesus Christ.

And what are "gods"? Mentioned by many biblical writers, as well as by modern day prophets, they are beings of power and glory who assist in creation, judgment and the Father's mission statement, which is: "to bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of man." But does our belief in these beings as "gods" mean we're polytheists? No, because these beings all derive their power and glory from "God."

Whereas some Christian critics try to gum up the works by claiming that Mormons believe in a multiplicity of gods, it really doesn't work any different from the way they view Christ and the Holy Spirit. Thus, if they can believe that the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit together comprise ONE God, it's really no different than us believing the Father, Son, Holy Spirit and all other glorified, eternal beings in the grand scheme of things are, together, God. The difference only lies in the number one accepts.

Jews and Muslims today don't buy into the Christian monotheism, at all. If the Father, Son and Holy Spirit are all separate entities and, and if they're all God, that's still a belief in more than one God and is, therefore, polytheism. But to Christians, God is a plurality as described in Genesis 1. Thus, when Zeezrom asks Amulek, "Is there more than one God?" Amulek replies, "No."

When Jesus prayed to the Father, he asked that the apostles "may be ONE" and added the great key: "even as we are ONE." Thus they were to be so unified in the gospel that they would become one with each other. So even though the Twelve still equaled twelve, the underlying truth is that Twelve, in a real sense, equals ONE. Thus all gods in the entire cosmos are ONE, even though they be made up of many.

[Sargon]

For Joseph Antley:

I don't consider the ancient Israelites to have been polytheists. They practiced "kingship monotheism", and so do we. For me, polytheism means something more than the simple acknowledgment of more than one individual who is "divine."

[Joseph Antley]

For Joseph Antley:

I don't consider the ancient Israelites to have been polytheists. They practiced "kingship monotheism", and so do we. For me, polytheism means something more than the simple acknowledgment of more than one individual who is "divine."

I would certainly be a misrepresentation to say that LDS are polytheists and leave it at that. And I understand how the term carries the connotation of worshiping a pantheon that certainly isn't descriptive of LDS beliefs.

Despite that, under the strict use of the term, we are certainly polytheists. And, like I said, under the definition of monotheism, we're also monotheists. We're also henotheists (under some definitions, though I've seen this word described various ways by different people), and we're definitely monolatrists.

[Bill “Papa” Lee]

In light of your comments, I have always seen this scripture(s) as interesting...

Exdous 6: 2-3

2 And God spake unto Moses, and said unto him, I am the Lord:

3 And I appeared unto Abraham, unto Isaac, and unto Jacob, by the name of God Almighty, but by my name JEHOVAH was I not known to them.