An Unremarkable Observation re: Anthon Transcript

[consiglieri]

The unremarkable observation is that the characters on the Anthon Manuscript start out large and then toward the bottom become much smaller and more cramped.

To my mind, this indicates that whoever created the Anthon Manuscript was copying from a source of some kind.

Had its creator simply been making up characters out of the blue, there would seem to be no reason for writing smaller and closer together toward the end.

It is always possible that the creator was simply trying to cram in as many fanciful characters as would fit on the paper, so this is far from proof, but I think it is suggestive.

If the Anthon Manuscript were created by Joseph Smith, would this lend credence to his account of having copied them from the plates?

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

P.S. I apologize for still being so technologically maladroit as to not be able to reproduce a copy for examination in this format.

[orion88]

I think a more incredible observation is found in verse 63 of the historical

account at http://scriptures.lds.org/en/js_h/1

"I went to the city of New York, and presented the characters which had been

translated, with the translation thereof, to Professor Charles Anthon, a

gentleman celebrated for his literary attainments. Professor Anthon stated

that the translation was correct, more so than any he had before seen translated

from the Egyptian. I then showed him those which were not yet translated,

and he said that they were Egyptian, Chaldaic, Assyriac, and Arabic; and he

said they were true characters. He gave me a certificate, certifying to the

people of Palmyra that they were true characters, and that the translation of

such of them as had been translated was also correct."

Mr. Anthon's credibility comes into question on two counts.

First, what kind of professor would authenticate a copy of the original instead

of the original itself? In a court of law, this would be tantamount to admitting

hearsay as evidence.

Second, after hearing where the characters came from, he completely changes

his scholarly authentication. Who cares if the plates came from some hole in

the ground or fell from the sky. He believes his scholarly ability first then

refutes it.

Joseph Smith then says, "I left him and went to Dr. Mitchell, who sanctioned

what Professor Anthon had said respecting both the characters and the

translation.â?

And this now means that the translation is all valid again? Come on. Just

a while ago it was said that Professor Charles Anthon was a gentleman

celebrated for his literary attainments. Did Dr. Mitchell even know the source

of where the plates came from or did he assume the role of "Anthon stage 1?"

Tony

[volgadon]

Personally, I think Anthon was full of himself.

[markt]

Another observation I could make is about the threat of destruction pronounced on

Smith by Moroni.

He was warned not to show the plates to anyone (with some allowable

exceptions - verse 42), but then he allowed Martin Harris to see copies of the

characters on the plates who in turn did the same to Mr. Anthon and Mr.

Michell (without apparently receiving authority of the said Moroni and without

concern for himself or the other three parties in regards to the previous warning).

Then verse 60 says he began to suffer intense persecution when people heard

he had the plates.

So its okay to tell people you have the plates but don't show them otherwise you

fall in danger of Moroni's warning.

Despite everything the angel Moroni is reported to have said to Smith and

everything Smith saw and heard, Harris still felt the need to have the

translation authenticated by at least one non-believing professor, and

maybe the same sort of doctor too.

It is unclear from the account whether Smith sanctioned Harris to do this, but

I figured Smith would have stopped Harris for these actions which revealed

a total lack of faith.

Mark

[AtticusFinch]

This is the most incredible to me:

Martin was a smart man.....he was relatively successful and respected.

His wife was NOT in favor of his giving money to Joseph.

Yet, whatever Anthon told him so convinced Martin that he mortgaged his farm to give Joseph money to publish the Book of Mormon.

Does it make any sense at all that Martin, who had doubts, would mortgage his farm and infuriate his wife if Anthon had said "this is fake"?

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

This is the most incredible to me:

Martin was a smart man.....he was relatively successful and respected.

His wife was NOT in favor of his giving money to Joseph.

Yet, whatever Anthon told him so convinced Martin that he mortgaged his farm to give Joseph money to publish the Book of Mormon.

Does it make any sense at all that Martin, who had doubts, would mortgage his farm and infuriate his wife if Anthon had said "this is fake"?

That is an excellent point. Martin is in on the fraud so he sells his farm to give money to JS to publish the BoM and he did this fraud so he could die poor.

Martin Harris seems to be a throne in the side of some critics sides.

As I understand you are not LDS? It doesn't matter you still made a good point.

[LeSellers]

whatever Anthon told him so convinced Martin that he mortgaged his farm to give Joseph money to publish the Book of Mormon.

Does it make any sense at all that Martin, who had doubts, would mortgage his farm and infuriate his wife if Anthon had said "this is fake"?

Bingo!

There is no way anyone can responsibly assert that Anthon could have said anything other than what Martin Harris ascribed to him and have the circumstances turn out as they did. Martin simply would never have financed the Book of Mormon printing had not Anthon (and Mitchell) made him (Harris) buttressed the claims of Moroni.

Lehi

[cinepro]

This blog post is a very interesting analysis of the Anthon Transcript:

Cipher Mysteries - The Anthon Transcript

[M]y particular interest in the Anthon Transcript is as a cipher historian looking at a single contentious document. Back in 2004, I exchanged a number of emails with Richard Stout, who has researched extensively on this subject to build up his own (very specific) claims. However, what follows below relates to my own opinion of what we can learn about the Transcript purely from its alphabet, and is competely independent of Richardâ??s ideas and interpretations. (And no, Iâ??m neither a Christian, a Mormon, nor even an ex-Mormon.)

What kind of document is this? Much as people ask of the Voynich Manuscript, is it shorthand, cipher, a lost ancient language, or some kind of deception? Furthermore, is it an original document, a copy of a document, a copy of some letter-shapes from a real document, or a purely made-up thing? The hope here is that we can use its alphabet to help resolve any of these open questions: so letâ??s see what we findâ?¦

Martin was a smart man.....

CFR

[LifeOnaPlate]

The unremarkable observation is that the characters on the Anthon Manuscript start out large and then toward the bottom become much smaller and more cramped.

To my mind, this indicates that whoever created the Anthon Manuscript was copying from a source of some kind.

Had its creator simply been making up characters out of the blue, there would seem to be no reason for writing smaller and closer together toward the end.

It is always possible that the creator was simply trying to cram in as many fanciful characters as would fit on the paper, so this is far from proof, but I think it is suggestive.

If the Anthon Manuscript were created by Joseph Smith, would this lend credence to his account of having copied them from the plates?

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

P.S. I apologize for still being so technologically maladroit as to not be able to reproduce a copy for examination in this format.

Evidently the transcript we have and think of as the "Anthon transcript" is a copy which a Whitmer owned of the actual one Harris had. Something like that. Look into it.

[hagoth7]

...Had its creator simply been making up characters out of the blue, there would seem to be no reason for writing smaller and closer together toward the end.

Good point.

It's interesting to contrast that suggestion with the size and spacing of characters in Hofmann's forgery.

Compared to your observations on the Caractors document, the characters in Hofmann's forgery appear too well planned and spaced to be a transcription.

Perhaps he was attempting to make it look like a direct replica of a plate - who knows.

It does add credence to the idea that Joseph was copying something from somewhere. It might even suggest that he was copying a specific passage, rather than cherry-picking a few sample characters.

P.S. I apologize for still being so technologically maladroit as to not be able to reproduce a copy for examination in this format.

If you're using Windows, four quick steps if the online image is using viable coding:

1. Right-click on the online image you want to display, and in the drop-down menu, select Copy Image Location.

2. In your new MADB post, click the Insert Image button .

3. On the keyboard, hold down the Ctrl button, and type V. (The web location for the image will post into the dialog box)

4. Click OK

[consiglieri]

Thanks for the tip, Hagoth, but . . . it's . . . not . . . working!

(I've been messing around with it for about 20-minutes now.)

[hagoth7]

This blog post is a very interesting analysis of the Anthon Transcript:

Cipher Mysteries - The Anthon Transcript

CFR

An interesting read. Both Pelling and Stout have some intriguing suggestions.

The thing that stands out most is their exploration of a potential correlation between some of the Caractors and European shorthand.

I think Pelling is a bit rash to downgrade the idea simply because some of the Caractors, in his opinion, don't suit themselves well to speed writing.

First, without knowing what some of the more complex characters represent, it's impossible to state whether creating it speeds things up or not.

And Second, not every shorthand system is designed with the purpose of being fast to write. Some are simply designed to conserve space on a page.

A number of times, the Nephite record mentions the issue of having limited space on the plates - and at least one of those passages attest to the Nephite's solution to their limited real estate:

And now, behold, we have written this record according to our knowledge, in the characters which are called among us the reformed Egyptian, being handed down and altered by us, according to our manner of speech.

And if our plates had been sufficiently large we should have written in Hebrew...

Mormon 9: 32-33

In other words, a form of shorthand. Designed and altered, perhaps not for lightning-fast speed, but perhaps simply to conserve space.

However we slice it, part of the arguments from Pelling and Stout, neither of which believe the Caractors are of ancient origin, oddly offer noteworthy corroboration for what the Nephite record itself claims about their form of writing.

And as to the Caractors being a possible link to Tironian Notae, as I've written elsewhere, I'm of the opinion that Tiro is a viable candidate for a Nephite in Cicero's court. At the very least, it makes Cicero's contribution to Western civilization, and to the admiration that the founding fathers had for his framing of Western thought on just government, worth at least a ponder or two.

[hagoth7]

Thanks for the tip, Hagoth, but . . . it's . . . not . . . working!

(I've been messing around with it for about 20-minutes now.)

Wish I could help.

You might call MADB's tech support line. But I've heard that Dr. Steuss handles all incoming calls - and he might put you on hold for two days just for fun.

[cinepro]

A number of times, the Nephite record mentions the issue of having limited space on the plates is mentioned - and at least one of those passages attest to the Nephite's solution to their limited real estate:

In other words, a form of shorthand. Designed and altered, perhaps not for lightning-fast speed, but perhaps simply to conserve space.

I wonder what this means for "tight" translation theories that suggest complex word patterns were maintained on the plates.

[hagoth7]

I wonder what this means for "tight" translation theories that suggest complex word patterns were maintained on the plates.

Dunno. But Pelling himself confirms that some shorthand systems are easier to write than they are to read/interpret.

If Nephite writing was of such a nature, translating it would have been more of an art than a science.

[Mike Reed]

Many of the characters on the anthon transcript resemble those used in Masonic ciphers.

Arturo De Hoyos and S. Brent Morris's book, Committed to the Flames: The History and Rituals of a Secret Masonic Rite, has a good section on Masonic ciphers (some of which, unlike the characters on the Anthon transcript appear to be, are extremely complex).

[Joseph Antley]

I agree with the OP that the "Caractors" were copied from something, but I don't believe that it was the gold plates. The so-called "Anthon transcript" isn't the document that Anthon described a few years later. Possibly the "Caractors" were copied from the actual transcript taken to Anthon.

I wonder what this means for "tight" translation theories that suggest complex word patterns were maintained on the plates.

According to Anthon, Martin told him that not only could Joseph translate the characters, but that he could "fully understand their meaning".