Is There a Crisis in Traditional Chrisitanity?

[JLFuller]

It is the nature of human beings to change when faced with a crisis. We saw it happen in the Reformation where the dominant religious authority suffered a revolt beginning with Martin Luther. We have seen it happen in politics with the American Revolution which was followed by the French revolution and the many since. Today, the Traditional Christian church is suffering from diminishing memberships and wholesale conversions to churches previously thought to be anti-establishment and even heretical. Why? Of course very Evangelical has his own reason why his church is growing or failing and point to one reason or another. But we rarely if ever hear of what specifically drove previously devout members from their church home.

In Mormonism we see a similar exodus but we have always had a net increase in membership. That has happened in one or two other denominations too, but not all of them - in fact very few. So the question remains: are we now seeing a new crisis in Traditional Christianity and what will Traditional Christianity look like in twenty or thirty years?

[Eguzkitanedan]

It is the nature of human beings to change when faced with a crisis. We saw it happen in the Reformation where the dominant religious authority suffered a revolt beginning with Martin Luther. We have seen it happen in politics with the American Revolution which was followed by the French revolution and the many since. Today, the Traditional Christian church is suffering from diminishing memberships and wholesale conversions to churches previously thought to be anti-establishment and even heretical. Why? Of course very Evangelical has his own reason why his church is growing or failing and point to one reason or another. But we rarely if ever hear of what specifically drove previously devout members from their church home.

In Mormonism we see a similar exodus but we have always had a net increase in membership. That has happened in one or two other denominations too, but not all of them - in fact very few. So the question remains: are we now seeing a new crisis in Traditional Christianity and what will Traditional Christianity look like in twenty or thirty years?

Expect more Spongs.

[No Touch]

I think you need to clear up your terminology. Classifying Evangelicals and even other Protestants as "Traditional Christianity" is inaccurate. There is no "Traditional Christian Church" unless you are referring to the Catholic Church, but that would be separate entity, not the way you are describing it.

Beyond that, I think all the sects of "Christianity" are distinct and so they face distinct problems, and it can not be summarized in any meaningful way as a larger "crisis".

Besides that, as a LDS, I see no problem with such a trend and so would characterize as anything but a crisis. The sooner people pull away from those churches that they might be willing to hear our message.

[thesometimesaint]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5fgRRsGfjxc

[JLFuller]

I think you need to clear up your terminology. Classifying Evangelicals and even other Protestants as "Traditional Christianity" is inaccurate. There is no "Traditional Christian Church" unless you are referring to the Catholic Church, but that would be separate entity, not the way you are describing it.

Beyond that, I think all the sects of "Christianity" are distinct and so they face distinct problems, and it can not be summarized in any meaningful way as a larger "crisis".

Besides that, as a LDS, I see no problem with such a trend and so would characterize as anything but a crisis. The sooner people pull away from those churches that they might be willing to hear our message.

This and other forums and even in LDS Church discussions, Traditional Christianity is considered all other Christian denominations other than LDS.

[No Touch]

This and other forums and even in LDS Church discussions, Traditional Christianity is considered all other Christian denominations other than LDS.

I am aware of that, and I am voicing my objection to it. That term is defined as such by those so-called "Traditional Christians" whose churches and theologies didn't exist at all 600 years ago. And while a similar thing can be said of us, at least we can say that the establishment of our Church had the direct involvement of Jesus Christ and several of His apostles (even if others disbelieve it).

But it is my humble opinion that "Christian" churches that are not either Orthodox or Catholic are about as traditional as a slurpee and a hot dog.

And again, all that aside, I think each group has their own distinct issues.

[LeSellers]

This and other forums and even in LDS Church discussions, Traditional Christianity is considered all other Christian denominations other than LDS.

I doubt that. Jehovah's Witnesses, for instance, World Wide Church of God and several others are not "traditional Christianity" in anyone's (not even their own) vernacular.

That's why I prefer "creedal Christianity" as a designator. "Orthodox" depends on the speaker's frame of reference; form God's perspective, 'Mormonism", so called, is orthodox. "Traditional" has the same problem. "Mainstream" has no meaning whatsoever, since most people like to perceive themselves as in the "mainstream", be it religion or politics.

Lehi

[Mudcat]

In Mormonism we see a similar exodus but we have always had a net increase in membership. That has happened in one or two other denominations too, but not all of them - in fact very few. So the question remains: are we now seeing a new crisis in Traditional Christianity and what will Traditional Christianity look like in twenty or thirty years?

I don't see how an institution that boasts a 2% growth rate with the rate of activity at about only 1/3rd of its membership, in a much different situation. In fact do we really know how accurate that growth rate is? As far as I am aware, you guys only remove the names of those who actually cared enough about it to have their name removed or were excommunicated.

Regardless. I agree, that what I perceive to be Christian institutions aren't growing. My thoughts on why it is the case. Parents don't raise their children like they should and kids are getting a bunch of psychobabble pumped in their brains at schools. The Gospel is being suffocated by crud, a bunch of feel good doctrine, apathy and the promotion of Godlessness... for starters. Though I am sure, I could list a hundred other things.

[thesometimesaint]

Mudcat:

Lots depends on how they are counted. The Church itself says that if they attend one meeting a month they are active, but there are always exceptions made for those too aged, disabled, or have work commitments to also be include in the "Active" list. I was a HP Group secretary of our Ward for many years, and we always had about 70% activity levels using that formula.

[The Dude]

You mean like this list of untraditional Christian theses from John Shelby Spong?

Martin Luther ignited the Reformation of the 16th century by nailing to the door of the church in Wittenberg in 1517 the 95 Theses that he wished to debate. ... I will post my theses on the Internet and send copies with invitations to debate them to the recognized Christian leaders of the world. My theses are far smaller in number than were those of Martin Luther, but they are far more threatening theologically.

The issues to which I now call the Christians of the world to debate are these:

1. Theism, as a way of defining God, is dead. So most theological God-talk is today meaningless. A new way to speak of God must be found.

2. Since God can no longer be conceived in theistic terms, it becomes nonsensical to seek to understand Jesus as the incarnation of the theistic deity. So the Christology of the ages is bankrupt.

3. The biblical story of the perfect and finished creation from which human beings fell into sin is pre-Darwinian mythology and post-Darwinian nonsense.

4. The virgin birth, understood as literal biology, makes Christ's divinity, as traditionally understood, impossible.

5. The miracle stories of the New Testament can no longer be interpreted in a post-Newtonian world as supernatural events performed by an incarnate deity.

6. The view of the cross as the sacrifice for the sins of the world is a barbarian idea based on primitive concepts of God and must be dismissed.

7. Resurrection is an action of God. Jesus was raised into the meaning of God. It therefore cannot be a physical resuscitation occurring inside human history.

8. The story of the Ascension assumed a three-tiered universe and is therefore not capable of being translated into the concepts of a post-Copernican space age.

9. There is no external, objective, revealed standard writ in scripture or on tablets of stone that will govern our ethical behavior for all time.

10. Prayer cannot be a request made to a theistic deity to act in human history in a particular way.

11. The hope for life after death must be separated forever from the behavior control mentality of reward and punishment. The Church must abandon, therefore, its reliance on guilt as a motivator of behavior.

12. All human beings bear God's image and must be respected for what each person is. Therefore, no external description of one's being, whether based on race, ethnicity, gender or sexual orientation, can properly be used as the basis for either rejection or discrimination.

I like most of what I see on this list. Big improvements.

[rhinomelon]

Meh, there's always a crisis going on in mainstream Christianity, and there always will be. It's how we are challenged and how we grow.

As far as what mainstream Christianity will look like in 20-30 years, you should read Philip Jenkins' books on the subject, fascinating stuff. The "center of gravity" for the Christian world is soon going to shift from the northern hemisphere and "first-world" countries to the southern hemisphere and "third-world" countries. For instance, South Korea currently sends out more missionaries than any other country, besides the US. The leadership of the Anglican communion is shifting from Europe to Africa, as evidenced by the recent debates over homosexual blessings. I think there are now more Anglicans in Kenya than anywhere else in the world, if memory serves.

Anyway, Jenkins' good books on this subject are "The Next Christendom: The Rise of Global Christianity" and "The New Faces of Christianity: Believing the Bible in the Global South". Really interesting stuff. Things will certainly change over the next half-century, as the "first-world" goes the way of Europe and the third world lights things up. I, for one, am looking forward to the process.

But I'm confused; what "crisis" are you referring to, JLFuller?

Take care, everyone

[Connolly]

Expect more Spongs.

Would that be more spongs as in Bishop Spongs, or more spongs as in hot bimbos?

[cksalmon]

Hi JLFuller--

You wrote:

Today, the Traditional Christian church is suffering from diminishing memberships and wholesale conversions to churches previously thought to be anti-establishment and even heretical. Why?

Your description is much too vague to provoke meanigful discussion.

Of course very Evangelical has his own reason why his church is growing or failing and point to one reason or another. But we rarely if ever hear of what specifically drove previously devout members from their church home.

Who is "we" and who are "they?" Where do you expect that "we" would hear about such things? Have you tried asking some of these previously devout members what drove them from their church homes? I feel confident that at least one of them would oblige you with an answer. But, again, your comment is just too fuzzy to be interacted with in any meaningful manner here.

So the question remains: are we now seeing a new crisis in Traditional Christianity[?]

Unless you're just hoping to hear other Latter-day Saints respond with the equivalent of, "Yup. We sure are!" you'll need to make some attempt at specification.

Best.

cks

[Eguzkitanedan]

Would that be more spongs as in Bishop Spongs, or more spongs as in hot bimbos?

I'm embarrased. The bishop.

[SilverKnight]

So the question remains: are we now seeing a new crisis in Traditional Christianity and what will Traditional Christianity look like in twenty or thirty years?

We are seeing a crisis in revealed religion.

In thirty years Traditional Christianity will look similar to how it does today, it's ranks depleted in developed nations but swelled in developing nations.

The bigger question is what will religion look like in 500 years?

[JLFuller]

Hi JLFuller--

You wrote:

Your description is much too vague to provoke meanigful discussion.

Who is "we" and who are "they?" Where do you expect that "we" would hear about such things? Have you tried asking some of these previously devout members what drove them from their church homes? I feel confident that at least one of them would oblige you with an answer. But, again, your comment is just too fuzzy to be interacted with in any meaningful manner here.

Unless you're just hoping to hear other Latter-day Saints respond with the equivalent of, "Yup. We sure are!" you'll need to make some attempt at specification.

Best.

cks

"We" is whomever you think it should be. It is perspective non-specific. The intent is to encourage people from various theological views to express what they discuss among themselves if they do.

[JLFuller]

It seems to me that observers here have taken a slightly less adversarial approach to interfaith dialog than is seen in so many other parochial venues. I suggest it is because we understand the other person better. Take deification as an example. Although some ridicule that early Christian concept and say it is a Joseph Smith created notion, conversationalist now know its true origins and that Joseph did not just contrive it. They know that revered early Christians believed in it. How many now have reconsidered Trinitarianism because of the LDS influence here?

I suggest the most important idea we discuss is that man cannot teach man about God like God can teach man about God. That is, having faith, repenting and becoming humble will gain a person a better understanding of Deity than the Socratic method alone. When people practice reading and research of scripture with humble supplication and an open mind, they will find bible study to be much more effective. I have to think that one principle will impact Traditional Christianity the most. These are non-sectarian ideas and practices that resonate and produce measurable results.

[cksalmon]

Hi JLFuller--

You wrote:

"We" is whomever you think it should be. It is perspective non-specific. The intent is to encourage people from various theological views to express what they discuss among themselves if they do.

The entirety of the OP is non-specific. I'll bow out, as the topic of discussion still eludes me.

Otherwise, what rhino said.

Best.

cks

[blueadept]

We are seeing a crisis in revealed religion.

In thirty years Traditional Christianity will look similar to how it does today, it's ranks depleted in developed nations but swelled in developing nations.

I would tend to disagree with your notion and say that as more individuals face their own particular crisis, church attendance across the board tend to increase. My previous priest predicted that as nation's financial crisis increases (especially in CA), more people will turn to God. When times are good, HF seems to take an unfortunate backseat.

The bigger question is what will religion look like in 500 years?

Any plagues, wars, or financial crisis at that time????

[rhinomelon]

They know that revered early Christians believed in [deification].

But not as modern LDS believe in it, of course. See, we're all understanding more already!

How many now have reconsidered Trinitarianism because of the LDS influence here?

I will be the first to say that I have considered the Trinity, reconsidered the Trinity, and rereconsidered the Trinity many times in conversations on the boards here, and have not only gained a deeper understanding and appreciation for the doctrine and its history, I remain more convinced of its truthfulness.

When people practice reading and research of scripture with humble supplication and an open mind, they will find bible study to be much more effective. I have to think that one principle will impact Traditional Christianity the most.

I think that practice will impact the LDS church a great deal as well. It's non-sectarian, after all...

Take care, everyone

[LifeOnaPlate]

But not as modern LDS believe in it, of course. See, we're all understanding more already!

Right, iirc LDS don't get as mixed up with Neoplatonism, etc. in regards to deification. Also, "traditional" Christians have forgotten what the patristic fathers taught in large measure. We ain't perfect, but we got more than most in that regard.

[rhinomelon]

Right, iirc LDS don't get as mixed up with Neoplatonism, etc. in regards to deification.

Quite true. You get mixed up with modern Mormon anthropomorphism.

Also, "traditional" Christians have forgotten what the patristic fathers taught in large measure. We ain't perfect, but we got more than most in that regard.

What an odd statement. The only place you can really study the patristic fathers is with mainstream Christian institutions and churches. Very few LDS members do more than cherrypick quotes without regard for their ancient context.

Take care, everyone

[kantgomo]

It is the nature of human beings to change when faced with a crisis. We saw it happen in the Reformation where the dominant religious authority suffered a revolt beginning with Martin Luther. We have seen it happen in politics with the American Revolution which was followed by the French revolution and the many since. Today, the Traditional Christian church is suffering from diminishing memberships and wholesale conversions to churches previously thought to be anti-establishment and even heretical. Why? Of course very Evangelical has his own reason why his church is growing or failing and point to one reason or another. But we rarely if ever hear of what specifically drove previously devout members from their church home.

In Mormonism we see a similar exodus but we have always had a net increase in membership. That has happened in one or two other denominations too, but not all of them - in fact very few. So the question remains: are we now seeing a new crisis in Traditional Christianity and what will Traditional Christianity look like in twenty or thirty years?

I'm not sure if what I'm going to say actually fits your post/thread in this OP, but maybe it does. I will share where I am right now.

I am in the process of transitioning out of my church home of 15 years for the main reason that many of evangelical or protestant [call it what you may] churches have fallen into the market-driven/seeker sensitive approach to church and I feel my church home has succumbed to this trend as well. After this realization which has been realized for quite some time now, I have been reading some books that address this issue such as This Little Churh Went to Market, Christless Chrisitianity, What is a Healthy Church, etc. Although this change of church membership will cross denominational lines, if I found a church that teaches from the Bible in depth as then new church home we are considering, I wouldn't cross denominational lines. I do know of one that teaches in depth from the Bible, but I/we feel led to this other church. We just hunger for God's word and the market driven or whatever you want to call it, leaves one at some point at a spiritual plateau. Without going in to more detail one could google the terms mentioned above to see what I am talking about.

It grieves me very much to have to leave my church home and church family of many years, but after trying to influence change to no avail, it is time to leave. One of the first things I noticed was I had stopped inviting people to church. Another was that is was getting more difficult to serve in church unless you fit a certain mold or "program" fit regardless of where the Lord was leading you to serve. Another was reaching a spiritual plateau. There are other noticable changes that I won't go into on here, but IMO, it is very sad that a majority of EV churches from what I can tell have fallen prey to this approach to church neglecting faith in God's word and His ability to build His church. I think we will see a lot of long-time church members leave their church homes for this reason.

Edited to include this comment: I think it is funny that it takes about 10-15 posts to argue what EV, protestant, traditional Christianity is or isn't. I usually read the OP first and then post. Then, after that I may read the other posts. That is why I added this comment.

[Hoops22]

I agree with you and sympathize with your plight

until here:

a majority of EV churches from what I can tell have fallen prey to this approach to church neglecting faith in God's word and His ability to build His church.

Just in the sense of a "majority". I quite agree that we have a huge problem on our hands and that it will require a mighty move of God to change course. This is why doctrine is so important. Without a firm grounding in essential doctrine, individual churches/denominations are left to ebb and flow with the prevailing cultural winds.

[JLFuller]

I'm not sure if what I'm going to say actually fits your post/thread in this OP, but maybe it does. I will share where I am right now.

I am in the process of transitioning out of my church home of 15 years for the main reason that many of evangelical or protestant [call it what you may] churches have fallen into the market-driven/seeker sensitive approach to church and I feel my church home has succumbed to this trend as well. After this realization which has been realized for quite some time now, I have been reading some books that address this issue such as This Little Churh Went to Market, Christless Chrisitianity, What is a Healthy Church, etc. Although this change of church membership will cross denominational lines, if I found a church that teaches from the Bible in depth as then new church home we are considering, I wouldn't cross denominational lines. I do know of one that teaches in depth from the Bible, but I/we feel led to this other church. We just hunger for God's word and the market driven or whatever you want to call it, leaves one at some point at a spiritual plateau. Without going in to more detail one could google the terms mentioned above to see what I am talking about.

It grieves me very much to have to leave my church home and church family of many years, but after trying to influence change to no avail, it is time to leave. One of the first things I noticed was I had stopped inviting people to church. Another was that is was getting more difficult to serve in church unless you fit a certain mold or "program" fit regardless of where the Lord was leading you to serve. Another was reaching a spiritual plateau. There are other noticable changes that I won't go into on here, but IMO, it is very sad that a majority of EV churches from what I can tell have fallen prey to this approach to church neglecting faith in God's word and His ability to build His church. I think we will see a lot of long-time church members leave their church homes for this reason.

Edited to include this comment: I think it is funny that it takes about 10-15 posts to argue what EV, protestant, traditional Christianity is or isn't. I usually read the OP first and then post. Then, after that I may read the other posts. That is why I added this comment.

Kant

Your comment addresses my thesis exactly. What I think Mormonism has to offer is another approach to bible study. That is, we have to prepare ourselves to receive the promptings of the Holy Ghost by first coming into conformance with gospel principles of personal behavior and then humbly ask for the presence of the Holy Ghost while we study. When we come to a conclusion of what we read we then ask if what we understand is correct i.e. we ask for confirmation. But we have to read with an open mind. We can't just accept what others tell us as the only truth regardless of who that other person is. What if that other person is wrong? I suggest the Holy Ghost can't teach a closed mind regardless of the subject matter. If we ask believing that God will answer us and if we are in substantial compliance with Christ's principles of personal living we will be sensitive to His promptings and we will get an answer. It may take a bit of time but some where or some time an answer will come to us. This is measurable and many many people can attest to its effectiveness.

This is a very short version of what has worked for millions of LDS people. We have found this to be the way we should learn in every endeavor. I suggest it can squeeze secular teaching out of historic Christian churches too. That doesn't mean this way will pit members against each other. Rather it allows the Holy Ghost to teach us the way the Savior would handle the situation of He was discussing the issue with you and others. It doesn't mean you become susceptible to being overcome with emotional events. In fact such promptings are not likely to elicit any emotion at all. Rather, you will come to a conclusion that you just know is right. After you become familiar with the sensation of having thoughts placed in your consciousness you will recognize it is Him prompting you just like any good teacher will do.