Is There a Crisis in Traditional Chrisitanity?

[Chris Smith]

It is the nature of human beings to change when faced with a crisis.

It is equally human nature to resist change when faced with a crisis. Thus the Counter-Reformation, the Tories, and Fundamentalism.

Today, the Traditional Christian church is suffering from diminishing memberships and wholesale conversions to churches previously thought to be anti-establishment and even heretical. Why? Of course very Evangelical has his own reason why his church is growing or failing and point to one reason or another. But we rarely if ever hear of what specifically drove previously devout members from their church home.

The mainline/liberal churches are the ones that are failing. If I'm not mistaken, evangelicalism is still growing here in the US, and is positively exploding abroad.

In Mormonism we see a similar exodus but we have always had a net increase in membership. That has happened in one or two other denominations too, but not all of them - in fact very few. So the question remains: are we now seeing a new crisis in Traditional Christianity and what will Traditional Christianity look like in twenty or thirty years?

Pentecostalism is experiencing unbelievable growth abroad. Whereas Mormonism has taken a hundred and ninety years to get thirteen or so million members (a great many of them inactive), the Pentecostal movement has in a mere hundred years achieved a size of 250 million adherents and continues to grow at a positively astonishing rate. Compared to Pentecostalism, Mormonism is stagnating in the Global South.

In twenty or thirty years I suspect the Global North will be largely secular and the Global South will be a battleground between Muslim and Christian fundamentalists.

Best,

-Chris

[James Banta]

This and other forums and even in LDS Church discussions, Traditional Christianity is considered all other Christian denominations other than LDS.

Are you placing The JW in your bag od "triditional churches".. A cult that denies that Jesus is the creator God? That is you idea of the tridition of the Church? IHS jim

[James Banta]

I doubt that. Jehovah's Witnesses, for instance, World Wide Church of God and several others are not "traditional Christianity" in anyone's (not even their own) vernacular.

That's why I prefer "creedal Christianity" as a designator. "Orthodox" depends on the speaker's frame of reference; form God's perspective, 'Mormonism", so called, is orthodox. "Traditional" has the same problem. "Mainstream" has no meaning whatsoever, since most people like to perceive themselves as in the "mainstream", be it religion or politics.

Lehi

How about Biblical Christinity... That would mean the churches that excet the Bible ONLY as God's revelation.. IHS jim

[SilverKnight]

Pentecostalism is experiencing unbelievable growth abroad. Whereas Mormonism has taken a hundred and ninety years to get thirteen or so million members (a great many of them inactive), the Pentecostal movement has in a mere hundred years achieved a size of 250 million adherents and continues to grow at a positively astonishing rate. Compared to Pentecostalism, Mormonism is stagnating in the Global South.

Pentecostalism?

As in, tongue-speaking, floor-flopping, Jesus-camping, pentecostalism?

Help us all if that's true.

[James Banta]

Mudcat:

Lots depends on how they are counted. The Church itself says that if they attend one meeting a month they are active, but there are always exceptions made for those too aged, disabled, or have work commitments to also be include in the "Active" list. I was a HP Group secretary of our Ward for many years, and we always had about 70% activity levels using that formula.

Sandy Christian fellowship has had a consistent activity level of 115% for the past 5 years.. There are always more in attendance than are on the membership roles of the church.. Does such a fact make it God's one and only true church? I think BANDWAGON advertising is a poor way of the establishment of truth don't you? IHS jim

[LeSellers]

How about Biblical Christinity... That would mean the churches that excet the Bible ONLY as God's revelation..

I'll contribute $5 for you to buy a new keyboard.

"Biblical Christianity" would imply that those who are not "biblical Christians" don't accept the Bible. As one who would be excluded by your definition, I believe this is misleading at best. We LDSs do accept the Bible; we do not accept your interpretation of the Bible.

Ergo, no go.

What's wrong with "creedal Christian"? You do believe in the creed(s), do you not?

In the animal world it is eat or be eaten. In the human world it is define or be defined.

I choose not to be defined, at least not by you.

Lehi

[Chris Smith]

Pentecostalism?

As in, tongue-speaking, floor-flopping, Jesus-camping, pentecostalism?

Help us all if that's true.

Yes: tongue-speaking, floor-flopping, Jesus-camping, bible-bashing, cancer-healing, demon-exorcising, Muslim-challenging, witchcraft-purging, rock n' roll worshipping Pentecostalism. It's easy for those of us who live in stable, scientific, post-modern societies to look down our noses at it, but it's quite well-suited to help people in the chaotic, historically animist third-world to make sense of their universe. It's precisely Mormonism's failure to do these things that has made it less successful.

While I'm no great fan of Christian fundamentalism, I have sometimes wondered if it's a necessary evil because only it has any hope of stemming the tide of fundamentalist Islam in the South.

[kantgomo]

I agree with you and sympathize with your plight

until here:

Just in the sense of a "majority". I quite agree that we have a huge problem on our hands and that it will require a mighty move of God to change course. This is why doctrine is so important. Without a firm grounding in essential doctrine, individual churches/denominations are left to ebb and flow with the prevailing cultural winds.

I would say that it isn't necessarily churches who are not well-grounded in essential doctrine who have gone the way of the seeker sensitive approach, although I'm sure many are not. I'm sure the eventual result would be a lack of grounding in doctrine/theology and heresy would tend to slip in more easily. IMO, like the song goes ... it's a slow fade.

[James Banta]

I'll contribute $5 for you to buy a new keyboard.

"Biblical Christianity" would imply that those who are not "biblical Christians" don't accept the Bible. As one who would be excluded by your definition, I believe this is misleading at best. We LDSs do accept the Bible; we do not accept your interpretation of the Bible.

Ergo, no go.

What's wrong with "creedal Christian"? You do believe in the creed(s), do you not?I choose not to be defined, at least not by you.

Lehi

I made it quite clear that Biblical Christians would be those that except the Bible as God's only revelation.. I guess my poor typing got you so confused that you saw only typos and not the content..

If you want to talk about creeds you will end up defending your church's 13 creedal statements.. IHS jim

[LeSellers]

I made it quite clear that Biblical Christians would be those that except the Bible as God's only revelation.. I guess my poor typing got you so confused that you saw only typos and not the content..

No, I read the content quite clearly, and got what you said. But my point is that "Biblical Christians" could not exist in a vacuum, and anyone else who sees or hears the term would make a connection that unjustly favors your "Bible as God's only revelation" over those who accept that God can speak any time or to any one He chooses.

Now, "Christian Bibliolaters" is a term I could freely apply to you.

Lehi

[James Banta]

Pentecostalism?

As in, tongue-speaking, floor-flopping, Jesus-camping, pentecostalism?

Help us all if that's true.

Just what is it you find so false about it? IHS jim

[Eguzkitanedan]

Just what is it you find so false about it? IHS jim

A better question, for me at least, would be what isn't? And I've been to quite a few AoG and Oneness services.

[James Banta]

No, I read the content quite clearly, and got what you said. But my point is that "Biblical Christians" could not exist in a vacuum, and anyone else who sees or hears the term would make a connection that unjustly favors your "Bible as God's only revelation" over those who accept that God can speak any time or to any one He chooses.

Now, "Christian Bibliolaters" is a term I could freely apply to you.

Lehi

There isn't a Biblical Christian in existence that would tell God when He can speak to men and when He can't.. We insist that God does NOT change so any new revelation would agree 100% with all that has already been given.. For He is God and changes NOT.. Malachi 3:6 IHS jim

[prisonchaplain]

It is the nature of human beings to change when faced with a crisis. We saw it happen in the Reformation where the dominant religious authority suffered a revolt beginning with Martin Luther. We have seen it happen in politics with the American Revolution which was followed by the French revolution and the many since. Today, the Traditional Christian church is suffering from diminishing memberships and wholesale conversions to churches previously thought to be anti-establishment and even heretical. Why? Of course very Evangelical has his own reason why his church is growing or failing and point to one reason or another. But we rarely if ever hear of what specifically drove previously devout members from their church home.

In Mormonism we see a similar exodus but we have always had a net increase in membership. That has happened in one or two other denominations too, but not all of them - in fact very few. So the question remains: are we now seeing a new crisis in Traditional Christianity and what will Traditional Christianity look like in twenty or thirty years?

"Traditional Christianity" will look "darker" (more members in the southern hemisphere), and it will be far more evangelical and pentecostal. So, the services will be more lively, and the teaching more conversational and down to earth. BTW, those churches that are already this way are continuing to see growth. My own movement remains fairly stable, thanks in large part to our hispanic churches phenomenol growth.

[prisonchaplain]

I doubt that. Jehovah's Witnesses, for instance, World Wide Church of God and several others are not "traditional Christianity" in anyone's (not even their own) vernacular.

Hate to strain a gnat here, but the Worldwide Church of God is now a mainstream evangelical fellowship, having jettisoned most of the abberrant teachings of Herbert W. Armstrong. Adventism seems to be heading in a similar direction.

[prisonchaplain]

Pentecostalism?

As in, tongue-speaking, floor-flopping, Jesus-camping, pentecostalism?

Help us all if that's true.

It is true, and He is helping. What...you don't believe God's got control of things???

[prisonchaplain]

A better question, for me at least, would be what isn't? And I've been to quite a few AoG and Oneness services.

Wow...I got called out at a Mormon apologetics board...naw...I'll resist the temptation. It's not about me or us...It's about Jesus. If the folk go Berean on me, and show me the error of my ways, I will be proud of them...not offended.

[jadams_4242]

This and other forums and even in LDS Church discussions, Traditional Christianity is considered all other Christian denominations other than LDS.

Whew! that might be a dangerus slope to lean on; But yes it is true when common discussion of human beings. So that must mean we are "non" traditional christians, as opposed to not christian period?

[JLFuller]

Whew! that might be a dangerus slope to lean on; But yes it is true when common discussion of human beings. So that must mean we are "non" traditional christians, as opposed to not christian period?

Yes. In fact some of the Southern Baptists consider us a fourth leg of the Abrahamic Covenant. That is Jews, Moslems, Christians and Mormons.

[Heartleap]

It is the nature of human beings to change when faced with a crisis. We saw it happen in the Reformation where the dominant religious authority suffered a revolt beginning with Martin Luther. We have seen it happen in politics with the American Revolution which was followed by the French revolution and the many since. Today, the Traditional Christian church is suffering from diminishing memberships and wholesale conversions to churches previously thought to be anti-establishment and even heretical. Why? Of course very Evangelical has his own reason why his church is growing or failing and point to one reason or another. But we rarely if ever hear of what specifically drove previously devout members from their church home.

In Mormonism we see a similar exodus but we have always had a net increase in membership. That has happened in one or two other denominations too, but not all of them - in fact very few. So the question remains: are we now seeing a new crisis in Traditional Christianity and what will Traditional Christianity look like in twenty or thirty years?

If I can share the trend I am seeing as a somewhat Traditional Christian. I see Christs church pressing into more of the gifts of the Spirit such as visions, dreams, revelations, prophecy, healing the sick, forgiveness, and love and in doing so, bringing more and more souls to God. I see God knocking churches out of their comfortable boxes and setting them on fire for him and the great things he is about to unleash (This is the direction the church I go to is taking anyway). I see many prejudices beginning to fade and the many who can not give up prejudices dying in their own judgement.

Heartleap...

[mpschmitt]

It is the nature of human beings to change when faced with a crisis. We saw it happen in the Reformation where the dominant religious authority suffered a revolt beginning with Martin Luther. We have seen it happen in politics with the American Revolution which was followed by the French revolution and the many since. Today, the Traditional Christian church is suffering from diminishing memberships and wholesale conversions to churches previously thought to be anti-establishment and even heretical. Why? Of course very Evangelical has his own reason why his church is growing or failing and point to one reason or another. But we rarely if ever hear of what specifically drove previously devout members from their church home.

In Mormonism we see a similar exodus but we have always had a net increase in membership. That has happened in one or two other denominations too, but not all of them - in fact very few. So the question remains: are we now seeing a new crisis in Traditional Christianity and what will Traditional Christianity look like in twenty or thirty years?

Evangelical Christianity also has another very serious challenge that threatens to corrupt it from the inside out. It is the Word of Faith movement and preachers like Creflo Dollar, T.D. Jakes, Joyce Myer, John Hagee, Benny Hinn, etc. These preachers are promoting a version of Christianity that, from the perspective of many Bible-believing Evangelicals, distorts the Gospel of Jesus Christ with the insertion of false concepts of worldly prosperity and the teaching that faith is a force by which you can obtain anything you want. Unfortunately if you turn on many of the Christian broadcasting networks, these are the kinds of preachers that are growing in popularity at an alarming clip, leaving more scripturally grounded preachers like David Jeremiah, Ravi Zacharias, and R.C. Sproll behind in terms of numbers. This is of great concern to a large number of Evangelicals, and I know that there are some Christian apologists who devote books and broadcasts to teaching about the dangers of such teaching in response. The prosperity preachers appeal to the human tendency toward materialism and quick fixes for problems at the expense of the Lord's pleading example "Not my will but thine be done".

As a Latter-day Saint, I find it interesting that our Church gets so much attention from concerned Evangelical ministries, when in my view, this far more dangerous trend (since I don't consider Mormonism dangerous, of course ) is doing a great deal of damage to it's ranks from within.

[JLFuller]

Evangelical Christianity also has another very serious challenge that threatens to corrupt it from the inside out. It is the Word of Faith movement and preachers like Creflo Dollar, T.D. Jakes, Joyce Myer, John Hagee, Benny Hinn, etc. These preachers are promoting a version of Christianity that, from the perspective of many Bible-believing Evangelicals, distorts the Gospel of Jesus Christ with the insertion of false concepts of worldly prosperity and the teaching that faith is a force by which you can obtain anything you want. Unfortunately if you turn on many of the Christian broadcasting networks, these are the kinds of preachers that are growing in popularity at an alarming clip, leaving more scripturally grounded preachers like David Jeremiah, Ravi Zacharias, and R.C. Sproll behind in terms of numbers. This is of great concern to a large number of Evangelicals, and I know that there are some Christian apologists who devote books and broadcasts to teaching about the dangers of such teaching in response. The prosperity preachers appeal to the human tendency toward materialism and quick fixes for problems at the expense of the Lord's pleading example "Not my will but thine be done".

As a Latter-day Saint, I find it interesting that our Church gets so much attention from concerned Evangelical ministries, when in my view, this far more dangerous trend (since I don't consider Mormonism dangerous, of course ) is doing a great deal of damage to it's ranks from within.

Good post MP.

[JLFuller]

Wow...I got called out at a Mormon apologetics board...naw...I'll resist the temptation. It's not about me or us...It's about Jesus. If the folk go Berean on me, and show me the error of my ways, I will be proud of them...not offended.

Chaplain

I appreciate your posts. But given we both like convicts and not so many who should be, I suppose many would consider us the odd men out. I think there are real heroes around us and some of them are people who have acknowledged the damage they have done in their lives and really turned around. They made 180 degree turnarounds and then set about fixing the damage they caused others. I am humbled by their strength. I was privileged to witness a few such people first hand. In every case I can recall it was their commitment to God and others that made it possible. I can't recall anyone who made a sustained change who didn't. This post is a bit off topic but I think it is important to recognize success whenever we can.

[James Banta]

A better question, for me at least, would be what isn't? And I've been to quite a few AoG and Oneness services.

Just one example would be nice.. IHS jim

[JLFuller]

"Traditional Christianity" will look "darker" (more members in the southern hemisphere), and it will be far more evangelical and pentecostal. So, the services will be more lively, and the teaching more conversational and down to earth. BTW, those churches that are already this way are continuing to see growth. My own movement remains fairly stable, thanks in large part to our hispanic churches phenomenol growth.

I think you are right. We see that in our church too with phenomenal growth in South America and Africa. Someone posted that former Catholics constitute the largest percentage of our new converts. I just wonder if the converts are looking for something that changes their daily living standards first and then spiritual living second. Catholicism has been around for 400- 500 years and not much has changed for many.