Behind the scenes with Simon Southerton

[livy111us]

Geneticist Ugo Perrego has posted an excellent article on the FAIR blog answering criticisms by ex-Mormon Simon Southerton. He paints a very different picture than what Southerton would like you to believe.

http://www.fairblog.org/2009/02/06/current...nites/#more-418

Some interesting quotes:

During the communication exchange between Southerton and Woodward in 1998, Woodward expressed how difficult it was for him to explain DNA related concepts to people (Southerton included) who did not want to understand or put serious effort into understanding the concepts involved. Woodwardâ??s â??difficultyâ? was not in reconciling Book of Mormon issues, but in dealing with people that refused to listen.

Woodwardâ??s emails from 1998 were eventually edited by Southerton and forwarded to LDS Church leaders in Utah, with the objective of hurting Woodwardâ??s teaching position at BYU. This event greatly upset Woodward. When in 2004 Southerton visited Woodward at SMGF, he admitted his earlier intentions and apologized for what he did in 1998. I was present at that meeting.

During that occasion, Woodward did not â??angrily defendâ? the Book of Mormon, but there was definitely some tension in the room due to what Southerton attempted to do to him in 1998. As I already stated, Southerton admitted to sending communications to LDS leaders in an attempt to purposely hurt Woodwardâ??s academic position at BYU, and said he was sorry for what he did. However, we had a hard time believing that he was sincere in his apologies since his recent book Losing a Lost Tribe contained several innuendos about the nature of Woodwardâ??s work with SMGF, insisting on possible connections with the search for Lamanite DNA evidence.

Eventually Southerton admitted that he did not know much about population genetics (he is a plant geneticist) and that he did not understand phylogenies but, nonetheless, he was still “very proud of his book.”

No one at that meeting (except, apparently, Southerton) recalls any mention of “finding exciting new evidence that supported the Book of Mormon,” particularly with regards to the work done at SMGF, as DNA and family history data collected in the first few years of the project were mainly of Anglo-Saxon extraction. However, references were made about the work of researchers from other universities publishing data that did not fit with the classic “Asian” markers as found among the majority of pre-Columbian groups. In some cases, the hypotheses surrounding their possible presence in the Western Hemisphere are still a matter of dispute (these arguments have already been discussed elsewhere and basically they have been promptly dismissed by those criticizing the historicity of the Book of Mormon).

Some LDS scholars suggest that haplogroup X2aâ??found exclusively in northern North Americaâ??could be a proof of Lehiâ??s genetic legacy, but at this time there is not enough data to support these conclusions.

[lostindc]

I am really sorry that this happened. Could you imagine someone sending this info about you to the First Presidency and not even knowing it for quite a while. I sure hope that this has been hammered out. What a terrible thing to do...

[robuchan]

Geneticist Ugo Perrego has posted an excellent article on the FAIR blog answering criticisms by ex-Mormon Simon Southerton. He paints a very different picture than what Southerton would like you to believe.

http://www.fairblog.org/2009/02/06/current...nites/#more-418

Some interesting quotes:

During the communication exchange between Southerton and Woodward in 1998, Woodward expressed how difficult it was for him to explain DNA related concepts to people (Southerton included) who did not want to understand or put serious effort into understanding the concepts involved. Woodwardâ??s â??difficultyâ? was not in reconciling Book of Mormon issues, but in dealing with people that refused to listen.

Woodwardâ??s emails from 1998 were eventually edited by Southerton and forwarded to LDS Church leaders in Utah, with the objective of hurting Woodwardâ??s teaching position at BYU. This event greatly upset Woodward. When in 2004 Southerton visited Woodward at SMGF, he admitted his earlier intentions and apologized for what he did in 1998. I was present at that meeting.

During that occasion, Woodward did not â??angrily defendâ? the Book of Mormon, but there was definitely some tension in the room due to what Southerton attempted to do to him in 1998. As I already stated, Southerton admitted to sending communications to LDS leaders in an attempt to purposely hurt Woodwardâ??s academic position at BYU, and said he was sorry for what he did. However, we had a hard time believing that he was sincere in his apologies since his recent book Losing a Lost Tribe contained several innuendos about the nature of Woodwardâ??s work with SMGF, insisting on possible connections with the search for Lamanite DNA evidence.

Some LDS scholars suggest that haplogroup X2aâ??found exclusively in northern North Americaâ??could be a proof of Lehiâ??s genetic legacy, but at this time there is not enough data to support these conclusions.

Thanks for the info.

translation:

exmo scientist: DNA tests prove Native Americans came from Asians and LDS scientist knows it and is doubting his faith and scrambling and promising and failing to come up with alternate evidence. P.S. various personal insults

LDS scientist: I'm not scrambling and not promising anything. It's possible further tests might show a subset of Native Americans have a remnant of Middle Eastern DNA but I'm not worried about it. This does nothing to hurt my faith (presumably LGT). P.S. various personal insults

[emeliza]

Thanks for the info.

translation:

Weird, I read it as one guy was upset so he sends letter to First Presidency in the attempt to harm another guy after editting out some crucial information.

[JLFuller]

I am really sorry that this happened. Could you imagine someone sending this info about you to the First Presidency and not even knowing it for quite a while. I sure hope that this has been hammered out. What a terrible thing to do...

Methinks it goes with the territory. Some people get so terrified of loosing face, power or prestige that they contrive to mislead. Cum hoc ergo propter hoc.

In fact, one has nothing to do with the other.

[robuchan]

Weird, I read it as one guy was upset so he sends letter to First Presidency in the attempt to harm another guy after editting out some crucial information.

Yes that part was dirty and petty.

[The Dude]

Thanks for the post, Livy111us.

Southerton sounds like a real psycho.

[selek]

Thanks for the info.

translation:

exmo scientist: DNA tests prove Native Americans came from Asians and LDS scientist knows it and is doubting his faith and scrambling and promising and failing to come up with alternate evidence. P.S. various personal insults

LDS scientist: I'm not scrambling and not promising anything. It's possible further tests might show a subset of Native Americans have a remnant of Middle Eastern DNA but I'm not worried about it. This does nothing to hurt my faith (presumably LGT). P.S. various personal insults

Not quite, Robbie.

Your summary might have been reasonably accurate if you'd posted the following:

exmo scientist: DNA tests prove Native Americans came from Asians and LDS scientist doesn't agree with my conclusions so I will deliberately set out to destroy his reputation and the Church I despise, and will lie, cheat, and steal as necessary to further my agenda. P.S. various personal insults, deliberate falsehood, attempts to sabotage professional standing and career, forgery, and propoganda.

LDS scientist: The data does not support the simplistic conclusions being offered as fact and further research is needed. It's possible further tests might show a subset of Native Americans have a remnant of Middle Eastern DNA but I'm not worried about it. This does nothing to hurt my faith (presumably LGT). P.S. exmo scientist has violated personal and professional ethics, forged e-mails, and attempted to retaliate against me for disagreeing with him.

[The Dude]

Despite Southertonâ??s continued efforts to discredit the professional integrity of institutions and/or individuals affiliated with the LDS faith, the debate about the origin of Native American populations is still wide open as demonstrated by the great amount of scholarship that scientists from different fields are still producing today. Rather than pick and choose from the scientific literature what fits best with his personal interpretation of the history of the Western Hemisphere, Southerton should attempt his own population genetic study to test the hypothesis for â??Lamanite DNA.â? He will soon â??discoverâ? the limitations with designing such a research project, the difficulties in obtaining and processing the necessary ancient and modern DNA samples (including those for comparison), find â??reconciliationâ? between his conclusions with those from other disciplines (such as linguistic, archaeology, anthropology, paleontology, etc.), find a suitable journal with a high impact factor that will publish his work, and be ready to reply to criticisms from other scientists, including geneticists. Through this experiment he might finally realize the complexity of such proposition and understand that others are not actively pursuing a similar objective.

What does it mean for the debate about origins to still be "wide open" in the context of this spat between Southerton and Woodward. If Ugo means it is still possible or likely to turn up DNA evidence for the Book of Mormon, then doesn't that play right into Southerton's accusation that Woodward and Ugo are hoping to find it?

But Southerton is obsessed with the hopeless idea that Woodward and others at SMGF are still searching restlessly for this genetic link so that we can finally reconcile our LDS beliefs and be done with our work!

If Ugo doesn't mean it's that wide open, then what does he mean?

I think it's not that wide open, Ugo knows it as an LGT realist, and he's sending a mixed message in his conclusion.

Just a thought.

[dblagent007]

What does it mean for the debate about origins to still be "wide open" in the context of this spat between Southerton and Woodward. If Ugo means it is still possible or likely to turn up DNA evidence for the Book of Mormon, then doesn't that play right into Southerton's accusation that Woodward and Ugo are hoping to find it?

If Ugo doesn't mean it's that wide open, then what does he mean?

I don't think Woodward and Ugo are saying that they would be displeased if someone found a DNA link to the BOM. I think what Ugo is saying is that he and Woodward are conducting generalized, well-accepted research into the origin of Native Americans without any religious purpose. If they find the evidence great, if not, so what.

Southerton, on the other hand, is saying that they are conducting their research for the purpose of finding DNA evidence to support the BOM.

[TOmNossor]

Simon Southerton has done more to defuse the BOM and DNA issue for me than any believing LDS scientist. I believe there are some complex issues associated with DNA and the BOM, and I have in the past considered attempting to â??sort them outâ? for myself. But, having many â??fish to fry,â? I was quite relieved when Dr. Southerton said:

In 600 BC there were probably several million American Indians living in the Americas. If a small group of Israelites, say less than thirty, entered such a massive native population, it would be very hard to detect their genes today.

I have devoted sufficient time (IMO) to the limited geography theory. Before DNA I decided that the BOM was as limited geography. So with Southertonâ??s at least moderately informed position on DNA and limited geography (and his BIAS as a critic â?? we all have BIAS) I am content to let the DNA issue lay.

That Southerton treated Woodward unkindly and inappropriately is unfortunate. It is a good thing we have The Dude to be respectful and DNA literate.

Charity, TOm

[The Dude]

I remember back in 2005 when Simon Southerton posted this on the exmormon board.

Did President Hinckley personally suppress human DNA genealogy research at Brigham Young University?

From several first and second hand reports I believe the following is true:-

1. President Hinckley spoke one-to-one with Scott Woodward in 2002 or 2001, at which time President Hinckley instructed Scott Woodward to stop some or all of his DNA research at BYU. Scott Woodward mentioned the content of this meeting during faith-inspiring communications to members of his Campus Plaza single student ward of the BYU 3rd Stake while he was serving as Bishop.

2. At the time of the meeting, Scott Woodward was scientific director of the Molecular Genealogy project at BYU. This project aimed to create a large DNA genealogical database to allow people to find their ancestral homelands through their DNA, and had collected many samples from indigenous Americans and Polynesians.

3. By the end of 1998, Scott Woodward had carried out DNA tests on over 6,000 Native Americans, mostly from Peru. At least 98% of their mitochondrial DNA lineages were most similar to Asian mitochondrial DNA lineages. The results of this research remain largely unpublished today.

4. Some time after the meeting between Scott Woodward and President Hinckley, the BYU Molecular Genealogy research project was moved off campus to the Sorenson Molecular Genealogy Foundation in Salt Lake City. For a period, Scott Woodward was not affiliated with BYU.

On the basis of this information I suspect that President Hinckley used his authority as President of the LDS Church to suppress human DNA research at Brigham Young University because he believed Scott Woodward

[asbestosman]

Thus, any lack of response by either Woodward or Hinckley may be taken as an admission that these claims cannot be refuted, and are true.

Gotta love the guilty-until-proven-innocent ploy by Psychoton.