Any new evidence for the historical account of the Book of Mormon?

[cdowis]

Why would that contradict the BoM?

Before I take the time to do this, what would you consider evidence that it was 'widespread'?

Having read the BOM, I read that Mormon was horrified at the human sacrifices during the war of extermination. I judge his comment sufficient that human sacrifice was either very rare, or unknown until that time. I could be wrong, but not very often when it comes to the BOM text. One of the Lamanite kings did talk about drinking the blood of his enemy, so anything is possible, but I still don't see that as strong evidence for human sacrifice. It would have been listed among the abominations of the Nephites and Lamanites prior to this war, IMO.

"Widespread" includes Lamanites and anyone under the Nephite sphere of influence. Pretty much all of mesoamerica. Human sacrifice should show up in murals, etc, as they did in later times, so you should have no difficulty finding such evidence, if it exists for THAT time period.

Widespread means simply multiple locations, not just one isolated location which may have been hidden from Nephite eyes (Gaddianton robbers, for example).

I think evidence of human sacrifice during the pre-300AD era would give me pause. I think it would be very difficult to explain in the context of our discussion here. I'm not an archeologist, so I'm sticking my neck out here. I have no idea what you may find.

[Nomad]

Please respond to the statements made by the archaeologists who have studied the field from my post numbered 300.

You continue to ignore the evidences that the BoM offers itself concerning its political structure and influence. Please see post 288. I fully recognize that obvious fact, and explicitly stated as much to you in post 311:

(note: you better scale down your numbers even more, because a polity of 300-500,000 in ancient Mesoamerica still is not minor)

Perhaps one day you will actually respond to that point.

BTW, do you have an a priori prejudice in regards to evaluating the BoM as an historical document?

Larry, How does the bolded portion correlate with the BoM text cited in post 288?

I have already responded to your treasured post #288. Here.

You just don't like the answer. And it's the same one Anjien and Brant have given you: your extreme and atextual interpretation of the passages you cite from the Book of Mormon is wrong. You see some kind of Mesoamerican superpower in those passages. But it is an illusion born of your prejudices.

Once again, careful and objective readers of the Book of Mormon see it for what it is: a lineage history of a relatively small (in comparison to the really big and powerful ancient Mesoamerican polities) society that, at the time of Christ, certainly numbered less than a million, if not half a million persons or fewer. Yes, to themselves, they are the world. As Larry has noted, from the relative security of their isolated valley surrounded by formidable natural barriers, they were "major and consequential". At least they were as "major and consequential" as were the Jews in the Mediterranean during roughly the same time period.

But they weren't what you want to make them into in order to deny them their historical existence.

Not that you could, anyway. Unlike all the other civilizations that occupied the vast cultural landscape of ancient Mesoamerica, the Nephites are the only one that, in 2009, lives on in any significant fashion. That's what the Book of Mormon has done for them: it has made them appear, in retrospect, as the most "major and consequential" society to have formed (and dissolved) in ancient America.

[beastie]

Anijen,

If I misunderstood your response, then please clarify instead of just sighing. You're the one person, so far, who has actually tried to address the verses in post 288. If you were not insinuating that the church could have been the governing agent, I really don't know what you were insinuating.

That is where your biggest error is IMO. If we are trying to find Mesoamerica in the Book of Mormon, then yes knowledge of the book is essential.

Well, of course, knowledge of the BoM is necessary to "find mesoamerica in the BoM". But it's also necessary to have some knowledge about Mesoamerica in general, and we can reasonably obtain this information from scholars who are simply sharing information about Mesoamerica. Then we can apply that to the BoM.

I cant speak for Nomad, but no on the Mesoamerican archaeologists (but it would help). If you want to evaluate Mesoamerica in the Book of Mormon then yes I would suggest be an expert in that book which Sorenson, Clark, Poulsenll and Gardner are and one in which you do not qualify

How does one qualify as an "expert" in the BoM?

[cdowis]

It is completely irrelevant whether or not these scholars have expertise in the BoM – they’re not discussing the BoM. Besides, when Mesoamerican scholars who also have expertise in the BoM criticize the theory of the book of mormon placed in Mesoamerica, believers find other reasons to dismiss them (see Deanne Matheny).

Beastie,

Please give us this list of mesoamerican scholars "who also have expertise in the BOM".

Give us that list, and be specific on their expertise.

How does one qualify as an "expert" in the BoM?

Have they actually read the BOM completely -- ten times..... five.........one......less than one time? Have they done a detailed analysis of specific items in the BOM which can be tested by archeology? Have they published the results of that study.

The list, the references to their studies, the basis for you claim that they are experts in the BOM. These are very basic questions. Being a member of the LDS church is not a sufficient response, from personal experience.

Let's see what you got.

When are you going to start answering my questions?

[Anijen]

If I misunderstood your response, then please clarify instead of just sighing. You're the one person, so far, who has actually tried to address the verses in post 288. If you were not insinuating that the church could have been the governing agent, I really don't know what you were insinuating.

I sighed because your post sounded like I said that the leaders of the church sanctioned human sacrifice.

How does one qualify as an "expert" in the BoM?

Expert on the book of Mormon, I dunno, I guess one who has studied and read it many times, perhaps has wrote commentaries and research such as Gardner, and Sorenson who I feel they are experts in both the BoM and Mesoamerica. I find the scholars you listed meet the expert requirement in Mesoamerica (very much) but as far as I know they are not even close to being at all familiar with the BoM, and highly doubt that they studied it or more probably haven't even read it.

[beastie]

I have already responded to your treasured post #288. Here.You just don't like the answer. And it's the same one Anjien and Brant have given you: your extreme and atextual interpretation of the passages you cite from the Book of Mormon is wrong. You see some kind of Mesoamerican superpower in those passages. But it is an illusion born of your prejudices.

I see. For those not willing to look back at post 288, note these most pertinent verses:

22 Now there was no lawyer nor judge nor high priest that could have power to condemn any one to death save their condemnation was signed by the governor of the land.23 Now there were many of those who testified of the things pertaining to Christ who testified boldly, who were taken and put to death secretly by the judges, that the knowledge of their death came not unto the governor of the land until after their death. 24 Now behold, this was contrary to the laws of the land, that any man should be put to death except they had power from the governor of the landâ?? 25 Therefore a complaint came up unto the land of Zarahemla, to the governor of the land, against these judges who had condemned the prophets of the Lord unto death, not according to the law.

2 And the people were divided one against another; and they did separate one from another into tribes, every man according to his family and his kindred and friends; and thus they did destroy the government of the land. 3 And every tribe did appoint a chief or a leader over them; and thus they became tribes and leaders of tribes.

6 And the regulations of the government were destroyed,

4 And it came to pass in the *thirty and first year that they were divided into tribes, every man according to his family, kindred and friends; nevertheless they had come to an agreement that they would not go to war one with another; but they were not united as to their laws, and their manner of government, for they were established according to the minds of those who were their chiefs and their leaders.

Now note my interpretation, which Nomad has labeled â??extreme and atextual.â?

This tells us that the Nephite system had a strict set of laws and a way of enforcing those laws. The laws were evolved to the point that lawyers and judges were necessary for enforcement. We see a strict hierarchy established in which the governor had authority over the lawyers, judges, and high priests.These verses tell us that they devolved into a tribal society, which implies that they were previously at a more complex level of development. We see from the description of a strict set of laws that had a bureaucracy for enforcement that this level of government sounds very much like what Arthur Demarest described as a â??stateâ? in his book The Ancient Maya, page 58:States: Societies with highly integrated, organized, and centralized leadership with a governing body or rulers. The power of the ruler is backed by coercive force, law, and/or religious sanctions.Compare the state level of organization with the simpler levels, particular chiefdoms: what differentiates the two is a governing body or rulers, backed by LAW, force, or religious sanctions.

Extreme and atextual??? Really? How odd.

When are you going to start answering my questions?

Well, you could start with the evidence of human sacrifice from post 320.

[Nomad]

This thread has devolved into a series of personal attacks and strawmen arguments. The worst strawman, to this point, is Nomadâ??s pretense that my argument has been that it is impossible for a minor polity to exist undetected in ancient Mesoamerica. I challenge anyone to find a post of mine that supports such a ludicrous assertion.

My point is simple, and yet thereâ??s been some serious avoidance in regards to it. The BoM does not describe what could be considered a minor polity in Mesoamerica during the specified time frame.

Evidences Iâ??ve offered from the BoM can be found throughout the thread, but most recently in post 288, and post 284 which Iâ??ll share here:

If and when someone actually deals with these evidences from the BoM and attempts to make a case that a minor polity in Mesoamerica could have done these things, I will take their response seriously and respond. OTOH, if the continuing posts mainly address my character defects or posit silly strawmen, I will consider the thread to be past its point of usefulness.

And thus Brave Sir Robin attempts to turn the tables.

Weird.

Your point, as you express it, is exactly the problem here. You claim, with a misplaced air of authority, that: "The BoM does not describe what could be considered a minor polity in Mesoamerica during the specified time frame."

And that is precisely where you are wrong, and it is the precise topic you fail to effectively engage. It is the precise topic that renders your voluminous recitals of "authoritative sources" irrelevant. It is the strawman here. There is no other.

How many people are there gathered in the "land Bountiful" at their temple no less than one year after the destructions at the time of the crucifixion? Twenty-five Hundred! 2500 people -- men, women, and children! This is how many people are gathered in one of their major cities to celebrate the one year anniversary of the event. And you are trying to tell us that this is a "major and consequential" polity in Mesoamerica, circa 34 A.D.?

You see, it is your prejudiced approach to the text that blinds you to the evidence. Your arguments against the historicity of the Book of Mormon are absolutely dependent on this unsupportable notion that the Nephites were some kind of Mesoamerican superpower. But that is not what the text tells us!

That's what everyone on this thread has been trying to tell you. But you put your hands over your ears and continue assembling paragraph upon paragraph of irrelevant "scholarly sources" to knock down a strawman your biases have set up for you. Congratulations on your ability to defeat an argument. But it's not the argument we've been making.

So go ahead, take your ball and go home, proclaiming victory all the way. Maybe you'd feel a little better if you go to one of the anti-Mormon message boards and report to them about how shabbily you were treated here.

[beastie]

Actually, I'm pleased with the way this thread has evolved. I think it's instructive in several ways. I particularly enjoyed the part where Nomad accuses me of "extreme and atextual" interpretation of the BoM, after I pretty much just paraphrased what the verses said. I also enjoyed the part where he accused me of being "arrogant" for believing the BoM accurately described their own political system. I like the thread enough that I've already linked to it on the "past debates" page of my website, and hope that many interested readers will read this thread and get an idea of how these conversations tend to go.

As I've repeatedly stated, I don't expect to persuade Brant - or the other posters on this thread - of my position, but I'm pretty confident I've offered useful information to those "on the fence".

[Nomad]

Actually, I'm pleased with the way this thread has evolved. I think it's instructive in several ways. I particularly enjoyed the part where Nomad accuses me of "extreme and atextual" interpretation of the BoM, after I pretty much just paraphrased what the verses said. I also enjoyed the part where he accused me of being "arrogant" for believing the BoM accurately described their own political system. I like the thread enough that I've already linked to it on the "past debates" page of my website, and hope that many interested readers will read this thread and get an idea of how these conversations tend to go.

As I've repeatedly stated, I don't expect to persuade Brant - or the other posters on this thread - of my position, but I'm pretty confident I've offered useful information to those "on the fence".

Translation: I don't have any more time to try and convince believing Mormons that I have a superior understanding of the correct interpretation of the text of the Book of Mormon.

OK, well, it was nice talking to you. Please come again sometime.

[beastie]

Translation: I don't have any more time to try and convince believing Mormons that I have a superior understanding of the correct interpretation of the text of the Book of Mormon.

There you have it, folks. You have to believe to be taken seriously. Otherwise, it's all arrogance and misreadings. And, of course, the nonbeliever is the one with the a prior conclusion to this all.

Whoops, I forgot to post my reply to anijen, but it fits in here nicely:

Expert on the book of Mormon, I dunno, I guess one who has studied and read it many times, perhaps has wrote commentaries and research such as Gardner, and Sorenson who I feel they are experts in both the BoM and Mesoamerica. I find the scholars you listed meet the expert requirement in Mesoamerica (very much) but as far as I know they are not even close to being at all familiar with the BoM, and highly doubt that they studied it or more probably haven't even read it.

It is entirely irrelevant if they have read the BoM or not; they’re not commenting on it. They’re simply sharing information on Mesoamerica, and then people who have studied the BoM can apply that knowledge to the book.

Deanne Matheny should qualify both as a Mesoamerican expert and someone who is very familiar with the BoM.

I was a believer for fifteen years, during which time I read the BoM at least twice a year, and I’ve continued to study it off and on since losing belief, but I’m sure that my disbelief somehow disqualifies me from adequate familiarity with the BoM. Personally, I think the fact that I’m familiar enough with the book to locate the types of evidences required should count for something, but I suspect that won’t be good enough for the believers here. (edit note: I was prophet, I predicted my disbelief alone would disqualify me even before Nomad confirmed it)

The real translation is: I spent too much time on this thread on my day off, and I return to my normal schedule tomorrow and will have far less time for this thread. If and when posters do attempt to seriously address the BoM evidences I've offered regarding what type of Nephite polity is described therein, I will do my best to make time for a response tomorrow night. Have fun speculating about my personality defects in the meantime, it will always make for good reading for my website links.

[Nomad]

Deanne Matheny should qualify both as a Mesoamerican expert and someone who is very familiar with the BoM.

I think it is interesting that, almost without exception, the only people who read the Book of Mormon the way beastie does are her fellow unbelievers.

Coincidence? Or motivated blindness? You be the judge.

[Areabird]

I think it is interesting that, almost without exception, the only people who read the Book of Mormon the way beastie does are her fellow unbelievers.

Coincidence? Or motivated blindness? You be the judge.

I think she has a point. Unless you are a 'believer' then you don't give anyone credit for having a logical arugment. This seems to be especially true when you are backed into a corner.

[James Banta]

beastie:

Iâ??ve made it clear that Iâ??m not arguing for the strawman you are so insistent on erecting.

I am arguing that one cannot fairly evaluate whether or not the Book of Mormon took place in Mesoamerica unless they approach the question armed with an accurate (i.e. consistent with the text itself) understanding of what â??took placeâ? means.

The arguments you make about the plausibility of the Book of Mormon in its designated time frame assume a more detailed knowledge of ancient Mesoamerica than is even had concerning the polities of the â??barbariansâ? during the Roman era â?? an era for which we actually have documentary evidence! Your asserted confidence of what we know of pre-classic times borders on the ridiculous at times.

Circa the time of the birth of Christ, the Nephite polity (judged by the hints contained in the text itself) probably consisted of a few hundred thousand persons; a few confederated cities within a few days travel (on foot) of one another. If you asked any bona fide expert in ancient Mesoamerica (who did not know you might possibly be referring to â??Nephitesâ?) whether or not it was possible that a polity of 300,000 â?? 500,000 people could have thrived during that period, and yet not be detectable via archaeological or anthropological evidence available to us in 2009, they would respond (virtually unanimously, I suspect) that it is entirely possible, and perhaps even probable.

One must come to the argument with an a priori prejudice in order to not recognize that obvious fact. And, of course, you do.

A huge problem for the BofM is the Mesoamerica civilizations.. During the first century the Indians of the area were conducting human sacrifice to the sun god.. The cruelty of these was not that of a Christian nation that Christ visited and established His church with.. There is No place in the Church of Jesus for human sacrifice.. There was no place for games that concluded with the death of the contestants.. These are NOT the ways of the Master.. The nature of Jesus and the behavior of the Indians of Mesoamerica is strong evidence that the BofM is a fraud.. IHS jim

[poulsenll]

A huge problem for the BofM is the Mesoamerica civilizations.. During the first century the Indians of the area were conducting human sacrifice to the sun god.. The cruelty of these was not that of a Christian nation that Christ visited and established His church with.. There is No place in the Church of Jesus for human sacrifice.. There was no place for games that concluded with the death of the contestants.. These are NOT the ways of the Master.. The nature of Jesus and the behavior of the Indians of Mesoamerica is strong evidence that the BofM is a fraud.. IHS jim

Please indicate your sources for human sacrifice in the Grijalva river valley. What little archeology done in that region was done by the NWAF and showed no evidence of human sacrifice. No carved stellae, no sacrificial alters and no buried victims.

Please tell us the name of this Sun God and cultures that worshiped a "Sun God". According to Coe the Sun God was a late Maya diety.

Larry P

[Anijen]

Deanne Matheny should qualify both as a Mesoamerican expert and someone who is very familiar with the BoM.

I subscribe more to Sorenson's POV, here he refutes Matheny;

1. Matheny's stance is often ethnocentric, visibly failing to appreciate how Nephite culture differed from that of the modern Western world. This results in projecting back upon the text her own unjustified notions.

2. She neglects to pay careful attention to the data and arguments in my writings.

3. Her statements are often inadequately documented or explained; that is, she appears to be ignorant of, or at least to omit, crucial current data, as well as to ignore optimal logic and scholarly methods.

4. She readily accepts, or actually prefers, "authoritative" assertions instead of discerning and correcting errors of fact, interpretation, and theory independentlyâ??the hallmark of a genuine scholar.

5. There are gaps in her grasp of the epistemology and history of our shared field, Mesoamerican archaeology/ anthropology; consequently, she appears naive about its status and limitations.

The following are the major "problem" areas noted:

1. The set of directions I employ in my model does not fit what Matheny considers a "standard system of cardinal directions" which she supposes was used in Bible lands, by Book of Mormon peoples, in Mesoamerica, and in the modern world.

2. Jaredite and Nephite metalworking referred to in the Book of Mormon fails to match the picture she has in mind of Mesoamerican metallurgy.

3. She believes certain weapons, especially swords, mentioned in the Book of Mormon were of metal, but she is not aware of Mesoamerican parallels for weapons she thinks are indicated by certain words in the scripture.

4. Tents are often mentioned in the Book of Mormon. No evidence for a tradition of tent use exists for Mesoamerica, she says.

5. She reads the Book of Mormon as indicating that "economically important plants" were brought from the Old World, but these have not been found in Mesoamerica, she asserts.

6. Animals which she believes are referred to in the Book of Mormon are not familiar to her from Mesoamerica.

7. She says that the site of Santa Rosa, Chiapas, proposed by me as a plausible candidate for the city of Zarahemla, has already been excavated and what was learned does not agree with how she thinks the scripture characterizes Zarahemla.

8. She does not believe that Mesoamerican archaeology provides evidence for cultures comparable to what the scripture describes for the Jaredites of the third millennium B.C.

For the complete review of the above see here.

I was a believer for fifteen years, during which time I read the BoM at least twice a year, and Iâ??ve continued to study it off and on since losing belief, but Iâ??m sure that my disbelief somehow disqualifies me from adequate familiarity with the BoM.

I never said your were not familiar with it but not a expert. Your disbelief does show a bias just as my belief for is also shows bias though I try to remain objective as much as possible.

Personally, I think the fact that Iâ??m familiar enough with the book to locate the types of evidences required should count for something, but I suspect that wonâ??t be good enough for the believers here.

Actually its been educating because you have sent me back to my books. I am now about 1/2 way through a Forest of Kings and just starting Ancient Mexico and Central America (S. T. Evens)anytime I am urged to read my books is a good thing. I actually am grateful for your participation though we disagree I find it a catalyst to help me overcome my laziness.

I spent too much time on this thread on my day off, and I return to my normal schedule tomorrow and will have far less time for this thread.

I am guilty as that as well not just this thread but MADB in general.

[Anijen]

A huge problem for the BofM is the Mesoamerica civilizations.. During the first century the Indians of the area were conducting human sacrifice to the sun god.. The cruelty of these was not that of a Christian nation that Christ visited and established His church with.. There is No place in the Church of Jesus for human sacrifice.. There was no place for games that concluded with the death of the contestants.. These are NOT the ways of the Master.. The nature of Jesus and the behavior of the Indians of Mesoamerica is strong evidence that the BofM is a fraud.. IHS jim

Except of course for the sacrifice of the Savior himself. Please answer Poulsenll CFR or recant.

[Honorentheos]

One of the interesting aspects of beasties argument is that the Nephites do not represent a civilization that is a co-evolving sub-group. Technically, the Nephites, and their brothers the true lamanites, should have brought with them old world technologies, ideologies, and social structure that, from the BoM text, would seem more advanced and more desirable to the native populations.

A late example that shows how this should work if the book represented reality is in Alma. The BoM describes Nephite warfare using Nephite weaponry and armor that results in a significant military victory. It is only within a chapter or so of this event that we see the Lamanites do what you would expect a culture to do - advance their own technology in the form of armor to be able to respond.

Religion, art, and social structure aside, one does not usually see a culture, especially one so fond of warfare, give up these kind of advantages if they work so well. The fact that the spaniards seem to have arrived with another iron-age technology, with fire arms and canon being the main additional advantage, and more or less subjugated the region should provide another counter-example.

Other technologies we seem to be in need of finding include a writing system, near eastern economic strategy (wasn't lehi's family wealthy and probably skilled in the merchant arts?), and trans-oceanic capable sea travel. A "hole" from which these technologies all seem to originate would probably be the place where one would expect to find nephite.

[beastie]

Please indicate your sources for human sacrifice in the Grijalva river valley. What little archeology done in that region was done by the NWAF and showed no evidence of human sacrifice. No carved stellae, no sacrificial alters and no buried victims.

Larry,

Perhaps you missed this post of mine earlier:

From The Mesoamerican Ballgame edited by Scarborough and Wilcox, page 175-177, from Peirre Agrinierâ??s article The Ballcourts of Southern Chiapas, Mexico:

The significance of the following report rests in the sheer number of unpublished or little known ballcourts of Southern Chiapas. Most of these 181 ballcourts were identified by the New World Archaeological Foundation between 1955 and 1983 and in salvage archaeological surveys of the Instituto Nacional de Antropologia e Historia. These surveys have recorded the highest density of ballcourts for any region in greater Mesoamerica. Southern Chiapas includes the Pacific Coastal Plain, the Central Depression of Chiapas, and most of the Central Chiapas Plateau Highlands.

(snipping paragraph about the attached tables)

The Middle Preclassic (900-400 BC)

The three earliest ballcourts belong to the sites of Finca Acapulco, El Vergel, and San Mateo, on the right bank of the Grijalva River. These sites date from the late Middle Preclassic period and are believed to have been regional centers abandoned at the close of the Escalera phase around 500 BC. The three corresponding ballcourts are the oldest known in Mesoamerica, except for the uncertain examples from La Venta (possibly dating to the early Middle Preclassic) and San Lorenzo (dating to the Palangana phase and approxiamately contemporary with our Chiapas examples.

The Late Preclassic (400 BC â?? 100 AD)

Three Chiapas ballcourts possibly date from the Late Preclassic period: Santa Rosa, in the Upper Grijalva Basin: Santa Cruz in the Acala subregion: and Rancho Alegre on the Chiapas coast near Pijijiapan. All are open-type ballcourts; Santa Cruz has a small separate structure at each end of the playing field.

And in case there's any doubt what the primary purpose of ballcourts was:

Same text, page 196:

Evidence of the ballgame in our delimited region ranges from architectural ballcourts, to monumental stone sculpture bearing explicit ballgame iconography, to portable ballgame paraphernalia replicated in stone, to thematically decorated pottery. Initial ballgame themes appear during the Late Preclassic and Protoclassic (500BC- AD200), intensify as a trait complex during the Teotihuacan contact period at the outset of the Middle Classic (AD 400), and continue to the end of the Late Classic. During the Postclassic there is an absence of ballgame data on the coast, though they persist in the adjacent highlands.

More of a mytho-religious ritual than a sport, the game usually culminated in human sacrifice â?? normally decapitation.

[beastie]

I think it is interesting that, almost without exception, the only people who read the Book of Mormon the way beastie does are her fellow unbelievers.Coincidence? Or motivated blindness? You be the judge.

Really?

Here's an experiment I encourage any of you on this thread to conduct. Pick a few members of your ward who don't participate on internet boards or read FARMS materials, and share these BoM verses with them:

20 And there began to be men inspired from heaven and sent forth, standing among the people in all the land, preaching and testifying boldly of the sins and iniquities of the people, and testifying unto them concerning the redemption which the Lord would make for his people, or in other words, the resurrection of Christ; and they did testify boldly of his death and sufferings.

21 Now there were many of the people who were exceedingly angry because of those who testified of these things; and those who were angry were chiefly the chief judges, and they who had been high priests and lawyers; yea, all those who were lawyers were angry with those who testified of these things.

22 Now there was no lawyer nor judge nor high priest that could have power to condemn any one to death save their condemnation was signed by the governor of the land.

23 Now there were many of those who testified of the things pertaining to Christ who testified boldly, who were taken and put to death secretly by the judges, that the knowledge of their death came not unto the governor of the land until after their death.

24 Now behold, this was contrary to the laws of the land, that any man should be put to death except they had power from the governor of the landâ??

25 Therefore a complaint came up unto the land of Zarahemla, to the governor of the land, against these judges who had condemned the prophets of the Lord unto death, not according to the law.

26 Now it came to pass that they were taken and brought up before the judge, to be judged of the crime which they had done, according to the law which had been given by the people.

27 Now it came to pass that those judges had many friends and kindreds; and the remainder, yea, even almost all the lawyers and the high priests, did gather themselves together, and unite with the kindreds of those judges who were to be tried according to the law.

28 And they did enter into a covenant one with another, yea, even into that covenant which was given by them of old, which covenant was given and administered by the devil, to combine against all righteousness.

29 Therefore they did combine against the people of the Lord, and enter into a covenant to destroy them, and to deliver those who were guilty of murder from the grasp of justice, which was about to be administered according to the law.

30 And they did set at defiance the law and the rights of their country; and they did covenant one with another to destroy the governor, and to establish a king over the land, that the land should no more be at liberty but should be subject unto kings.

1 Now behold, I will show unto you that they did not establish a king over the land; but in this same year, yea, the thirtieth year, they did destroy upon the judgment-seat, yea, did murder the chief judge of the land.

2 And the people were divided one against another; and they did separate one from another into tribes, every man according to his family and his kindred and friends; and thus they did destroy the government of the land.

3 And every tribe did appoint a chief or a leader over them; and thus they became tribes and leaders of tribes.

4 Now behold, there was no man among them save he had much family and many kindreds and friends; therefore their tribes became exceedingly great.

5 Now all this was done, and there were no wars as yet among them; and all this iniquity had come upon the people because they did yield themselves unto the power of Satan.

6 And the regulations of the government were destroyed, because of the secret combination of the friends and kindreds of those who murdered the prophets.

7 And they did cause a great contention in the land, insomuch that the more righteous part of the people had nearly all become wicked; yea, there were but few righteous men among them.

8 And thus six years had not passed away since the more part of the people had turned from their righteousness, like the dog to his vomit, or like the sow to her wallowing in the mire.

9 Now this secret combination, which had brought so great iniquity upon the people, did gather themselves together, and did place at their head a man whom they did call Jacob;

10 And they did call him their king; therefore he became a king over this wicked band; and he was one of the chiefest who had given his voice against the prophets who testified of Jesus.

11 And it came to pass that they were not so strong in number as the tribes of the people, who were united together save it were their leaders did establish their laws, every one according to his tribe; nevertheless they were enemies; notwithstanding they were not a righteous people, yet they were united in the hatred of those who had entered into a covenant to destroy the government.

12 Therefore, Jacob seeing that their enemies were more numerous than they, he being the king of the band, therefore he commanded his people that they should take their flight into the northernmost part of the land, and there build up unto themselves a kingdom, until they were joined by dissenters, (for he flattered them that there would be many dissenters) and they become sufficiently strong to contend with the tribes of the people; and they did so.

13 And so speedy was their march that it could not be impeded until they had gone forth out of the reach of the people. And thus ended the thirtieth year; and thus were the affairs of the people of Nephi.

14 And it came to pass in the *thirty and first year that they were divided into tribes, every man according to his family, kindred and friends; nevertheless they had come to an agreement that they would not go to war one with another; but they were not united as to their laws, and their manner of government, for they were established according to the minds of those who were their chiefs and their leaders. But they did establish very strict laws that one tribe should not trespass against another, insomuch that in some degree they had peace in the land; nevertheless, their hearts were turned from the Lord their God, and they did stone the prophets and did cast them out from among them.

Then ask: do these verses mean that the Nephites used to have a government based on strict laws, enforced by a hierarchy such as governors, judges, and lawyers, which deteriorated into tribal rule?

anijen

Actually its been educating because you have sent me back to my books. I am now about 1/2 way through a Forest of Kings and just starting Ancient Mexico and Central America (S. T. Evens)anytime I am urged to read my books is a good thing. I actually am grateful for your participation though we disagree I find it a catalyst to help me overcome my laziness.

Thanks, anijen. I love the Maya so am always happy to hear that others are learning more about them. I think it's a culture that should receive as much attention as ancient Egypt.I'll come back later to talk about Sorenson's rebuttal of Matheny.

[beastie]

One of the interesting aspects of beasties argument is that the Nephites do not represent a civilization that is a co-evolving sub-group. Technically, the Nephites, and their brothers the true lamanites, should have brought with them old world technologies, ideologies, and social structure that, from the BoM text, would seem more advanced and more desirable to the native populations.

A late example that shows how this should work if the book represented reality is in Alma. The BoM describes Nephite warfare using Nephite weaponry and armor that results in a significant military victory. It is only within a chapter or so of this event that we see the Lamanites do what you would expect a culture to do - advance their own technology in the form of armor to be able to respond.

Religion, art, and social structure aside, one does not usually see a culture, especially one so fond of warfare, give up these kind of advantages if they work so well. The fact that the spaniards seem to have arrived with another iron-age technology, with fire arms and canon being the main additional advantage, and more or less subjugated the region should provide another counter-example.

Other technologies we seem to be in need of finding include a writing system, near eastern economic strategy (wasn't lehi's family wealthy and probably skilled in the merchant arts?), and trans-oceanic capable sea travel. A "hole" from which these technologies all seem to originate would probably be the place where one would expect to find nephite.

Good points. I have more to share in response but it will have to wait till later tonight (or I may have a bit of time before a dentist appt).

[Nomad]

Evidence of the ballgame in our delimited region ranges from architectural ballcourts, to monumental stone sculpture bearing explicit ballgame iconography, to portable ballgame paraphernalia replicated in stone, to thematically decorated pottery. Initial ballgame themes appear during the Late Preclassic and Protoclassic (500BC- AD200), intensify as a trait complex during the Teotihuacan contact period at the outset of the Middle Classic (AD 400), and continue to the end of the Late Classic. During the Postclassic there is an absence of ballgame data on the coast, though they persist in the adjacent highlands.

More of a mytho-religious ritual than a sport, the game usually culminated in human sacrifice â?? normally decapitation.

I don't have much time today to play in this ballcourt called MAD, but this post caught my eye.

Are you quite sure, beastie, that you are prepared to defend the argument that the presence of a ball court in pre-classic times = ritual human sacrifice?

As for your repeated attempts to get your strawman to stand, I will only reply that the kind of government described in the verses you cite does not equal Mesoamerican superpower. Proof-texting verses and then applying your peculiar brand of interpretation is no substitute for correctly understanding the text as a whole.

But, hey, you keep on telling us what the Book of Mormon really means. It's entertaining, if nothing else.

[cdowis]

"More of a mytho-religious ritual than a sport, the game usually culminated in human sacrifice – normally decapitation."

I think you are intelligent enough to anticipate my question, whether this ritual of decapitation occurred during the time period under consideration, or whether it developed in the late pre-classic.

IOW, we have something originally as a sport of "church basketball", which later developed into a violent sport. Remember we transitioned from the several hundred years of the Golden Age into the War of Extermination in just a few decades. And, according to the BOM, the Lamanites conducted war among themselves, so this was a very violent period which Mormon tells us included human sacrifice.

Finally, I would question whether this ritual was actually a human sacrifice, or just an act of violence. Mormon was talking about something very involuntary, as a result of war on helpless captives including women and children. Not as active participants of a bloody sport, perhaps similar to the gladiators of Rome.

Do you consider the gladiatorial events of Rome as "human sacrifice"?

Anyway, very interesting, but not there yet.

[Honorentheos]

...we have something originally as a sport of "church basketball", which later developed into a violent sport...

There was a time when church basketball wasn't a violent sport?

[poulsenll]

There was a time when church basketball wasn't a violent sport?

Maybe when I was a small boy, but then maybe not.

Larry P

Beastie

I was unaware of that data. Thanks for bringing it to my attention. But as others have already said, ball courts by themselves do not indicate human sacrifice and we have no way to know if these were Nephite ballcourts. I personnaly do not agree with Sorenson's choice of Santa Rosa as Zarahemla. I think the text suports a region further down the Grijalva. The Book of Mormon also indicates that this entire area was occupied by Lamanites for extended periods during the time frame of the Book of Mormon.

Larry P

[Anijen]

There was a time when church basketball wasn't a violent sport?

probably preclassic....