Sargon Posted January 14, 2009 Posted January 14, 2009 John 10:31-3631 Again the Jews picked up stones to stone him,32 but Jesus said to them, â??I have shown you many great miracles from the Father. For which of these do you stone me?â?33 â??We are not stoning you for any of these,â? replied the Jews, â??but for blasphemy, because you, a mere man, claim to be God.â?34 Jesus answered them, â??Is it not written in your Law, â??I have said you are godsâ???35 If he called them â??gods,â?? to whom the word of God cameâ??and the Scripture cannot be brokenâ??36 what about the one whom the Father set apart as his very own and sent into the world? Why then do you accuse me of blasphemy because I said, â??I am Godâ??s Sonâ???One would think that this would have been a great opportunity for Jesus to teach the doctrine of the Trinity. The disbelieving Jews accused him of claiming to be God, and Jesus could have responded by saying something like: â??But I am God! You see, the Father, Myself, and the Holy Spirit are one God in Trinity, and Trinity in Unity, neither confounding the Persons, nor dividing the Substance. For there is one Person of the Father, another of the Son, and another of the Holy Ghost. But the Godhead of the Father, of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost, is all one, the Glory equal, the Majesty co-eternal. Such as the Father is, such is the Son, and such is the Holy Ghost. The Father uncreate, the Son uncreate, and the Holy Ghost uncreate. The Father incomprehensible, the Son incomprehensible, and the Holy Ghost incomprehensible. The Father eternal, the Son eternal, and the Holy Ghost eternal. And yet they are not three eternals, but one eternal. As also there are not three incomprehensibles, nor three uncreated, but one uncreated, and one incomprehensible. So likewise the Father is Almighty, the Son Almighty, and the Holy Ghost Almighty. And yet they are not three Almighties, but one Almighty. So the Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Ghost is God. And yet they are not three Gods, but one God. So likewise the Father is Lord, the Son Lord, and the Holy Ghost Lord. And yet not three Lords, but one Lord.â?1But, strangely enough, Jesus did not take that prime opportunity to elucidate the mystery of his metaphysical oneness with the Father. Instead, when accused of claiming to be God, Jesus essentially said: â??Ya? So what? Your own scriptures teach that there are gods other than the Father. Whatâ??s the big deal if I claim to be the Son of God?â?Given a prime opportunity to affirm metaphysical monotheism, Jesus instead offends the Jews even more by claiming that not only is he God (the son of God), but that there are other gods beside him, and that their own scriptures teach it. Why would Jesus do that?Notes[1] The Athanasius Creed. http://www.holybible.com/resources/athanasius_creed.htm (accessed 1-12-08 )
BCSpace Posted January 14, 2009 Posted January 14, 2009 John 20:17 is yet another such missed opportunity. But Jesus instead chose to affirm that he himself has a God and it's the same God we also worship (Subordinationism, plurality of Gods).
johnny Posted January 14, 2009 Posted January 14, 2009 SargonOne would think that this would have been a great opportunity for Jesus to teach the doctrine of the Trinity. The disbelieving Jews accused him of claiming to be God, and Jesus could have responded by saying something like:Maybe because Jesus taught it at another time, Mark 12 saysMark.12 ([29] And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord: [32] And the scribe said unto him, Well, Master, thou hast said the truth: for there is one God; and there is none other but he: [36] For David himself said by the Holy Ghost, The Lord said to my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, till I make thine enemies thy footstool.)Given a prime opportunity to affirm metaphysical monotheism, Jesus instead offends the Jews even more by claiming that not only is he God (the son of God), but that there are other gods beside him, and that their own scriptures teach it. Why would Jesus do that?Of course there other gods, Satan is called god.
urroner Posted January 14, 2009 Posted January 14, 2009 SargonMaybe because Jesus taught it at another time, Mark 12 saysMark.12 ([29] And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord: [32] And the scribe said unto him, Well, Master, thou hast said the truth: for there is one God; and there is none other but he: [36] For David himself said by the Holy Ghost, The Lord said to my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, till I make thine enemies thy footstool.)Of course there other gods, Satan is called god.The members of the Council of God are also called gods.
johnny Posted January 14, 2009 Posted January 14, 2009 BCSpaceJohn 20:17 is yet another such missed opportunity. But Jesus instead chose to affirm that he himself has a God and it's the same God we also worship (Subordinationism, plurality of Gods).John 20:17 fits nicely with the doctrine of the Trinity. The man Jesus is the mediator between God and men. There is one God.
Sargon Posted January 14, 2009 Author Posted January 14, 2009 BCSpaceJohn 20:17 fits nicely with the doctrine of the Trinity. The man Jesus is the mediator between God and men. There is one God.The hypostasis of Christ's nature is an ad hoc response to this problem. You can't solve it without making up further doctrines.SargonMaybe because Jesus taught it at another time, Mark 12 saysMark.12 ([29] And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord: [32] And the scribe said unto him, Well, Master, thou hast said the truth: for there is one God; and there is none other but he: [36] For David himself said by the Holy Ghost, The Lord said to my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, till I make thine enemies thy footstool.)Of course there other gods, Satan is called god.So what's it gonna be? Is there only one god is or Satan a god too? You can't have your cake and eat it too.
johnny Posted January 14, 2009 Posted January 14, 2009 SargonThe hypostasis of Christ's nature is an ad hoc response to this problem. You can't solve it without making up further doctrines.The doctrine of the Trinity clarifies what scripture reveals.
johnny Posted January 14, 2009 Posted January 14, 2009 SargonSo what's it gonna be? Is there only one god is or Satan a god too? You can't have your cake and eat it too.â??there is none other God but oneâ?, see below1Cor.8 ([4] As concerning therefore the eating of those things that are offered in sacrifice unto idols, we know that an idol is nothing in the world, and that there is none other God but one. [6] But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.)There is that â??called godsâ?, for example Satan is called god1Cor.8 ([5] For though there be that are called gods, whether in heaven or in earth, (as there be gods many, and lords many,)
Sargon Posted January 14, 2009 Author Posted January 14, 2009 SargonThe doctrine of the Trinity clarifies what scripture reveals.Sort of like calling pro-abortion "pro-choice".The Trinity is the genius product of the greatest Greek philosophers in early Christianity. You can't find the concepts of hypostasis or a "homoousia" in the bible.
johnny Posted January 14, 2009 Posted January 14, 2009 SargonSort of like calling pro-abortion "pro-choice".I would not characterize it that way â?¦The Trinity is the genius product of the greatest Greek philosophers in early Christianity. You can't find the concepts of hypostasis or a "homoousia" in the bible.You canâ??t find the concept of â??three Godsâ? in the Bible but yet Joseph Smith and the Mormon Church teaches "three Gods".
Sargon Posted January 14, 2009 Author Posted January 14, 2009 Sargonâ??there is none other God but oneâ?, see below1Cor.8 ([4] As concerning therefore the eating of those things that are offered in sacrifice unto idols, we know that an idol is nothing in the world, and that there is none other God but one. [6] But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.)As I'm sure you are aware, none of this is unique to Trinitarianism This sits well with Mormonism as well. There is that â??called godsâ?, for example Satan is called god1Cor.8 ([5] For though there be that are called gods, whether in heaven or in earth, (as there be gods many, and lords many,)Sort of like how Jesus is "called" Christ?Mat 1:16 And Jacob begat Joseph the husband of Mary, of whom was born Jesus, who is called Christ.Mat 22:17 Therefore when they were gathered together, Pilate said unto them, Whom will ye that I release unto you? Barabbas, or Jesus which is called Christ?
johnny Posted January 14, 2009 Posted January 14, 2009 SargonAs I'm sure you are aware, none of this is unique to Trinitarianism This sits well with Mormonism as well. ]You can it sit well with Mormonism?Mormonism teaches â??three Godsâ? and Paul teaches â??there is none other God but one â?.
Sargon Posted January 14, 2009 Author Posted January 14, 2009 You canâ??t find the concept of â??three Godsâ? in the Bible but yet Joseph Smith and the Mormon Church teaches "three Gods".The bible begs to differ:Deut 10:17 the LORD(yehvah) your God is God of godsJosh 22: 22 The LORD(yehvah) God of gods, the LORD(yehvah) God of gods2 Chron 2: 5 our God above all gods.Are these gods alive or dead? Matt 22:32, Mark 12:27, Luke 20:38; God is not the God of the dead, but of the living
Tanyan Posted January 14, 2009 Posted January 14, 2009 Many non LDS Christians outside the LDS Mansion have problems with thhe Catholic Form/Model of the Trinity - http://www.bible.ca/trinity/trinity-catholic-nicene.htm In His Debt/Grace, Tanyan LDS JEDI KNIGHT.
Sargon Posted January 14, 2009 Author Posted January 14, 2009 SargonYou can it sit well with Mormonism?Mormonism teaches “three Gods” and Paul teaches “there is none other God but one ”.The bible teaches a paradox. It teaches that:A) There is only one GodB ) There is more than one GodYou have your respective way of dealing with this, through Greek philosophy. We have our respective way of dealing with it, through common sense and through other biblical passages.
johnny Posted January 14, 2009 Posted January 14, 2009 SargonAre these gods alive or dead? Like I said earlier, there is the called gods. Satan is alive, Satan is called god.
Sargon Posted January 14, 2009 Author Posted January 14, 2009 SargonLike I said earlier, there is the called gods. Satan is alive, Satan is called god.Did you ever wonder if they are called gods because they are gods?Jesus was "called" Christ because, well, he is Christ. I'm sure you don't contest that.
Notquitewetyet Posted January 14, 2009 Posted January 14, 2009 JohnnyI think the word "god" is the problem. Normally, we think of God as a personal being with whom we have some special relationship, at least in the way 90% of people daily think of him/her/it. Now we get to the hard part. One, the Bible uses the word "god/gods/eloah/elohim/theos/theoi" in manners that are different than what we use in normal parlance. Also, the Catholic creeds state that there is one God, and that word causes confusion to many LDS, because the Bible uses god in a variety of reasons, so perhaps Johnny a better word to use to make your point to LDSs who don't have much experience with Catholic theology is Divinity/Supreme being. Mormon teaching is that there is one Supreme being to us, and so a variety of uses of the word god is okay, and then it appears that you're backpeddling when I realize that you're not when you say there is one god and others are called god. It goes back to creator vs. creature distinction in Catholic theology, and the fact that Mormonism emphatically teaches against it, but for both sides these are deep and ingrained presuppositions that are often so assumed they don't realize they're both talking past one another.
johnny Posted January 14, 2009 Posted January 14, 2009 SargonThe bible teaches a paradox. It teaches that:A) There is only one GodB ) There is more than one GodThere is no paradox. The Bible reveals that:A ) there is none other God but one B ) there is that called godsYou have your respective way of dealing with this, through Greek philosophy. We have our respective way of dealing with it, through common sense and through other biblical passages.The way I have presented it is consistent with the teachings of Jesus and his apostles. Neither the OT nor the NT reveal â??three Godsâ? like Mormonism.
Tanyan Posted January 14, 2009 Posted January 14, 2009 Sargon my LDS JEDI KNIGHT Brother In Christ Jesus do not forget that Heavenly Father is Jesus Christ's GOD [NIV] - John 14:28, 17:3, 20:17, 1 Cor 11:3, 15:27,28, Acts 2:32, 2 Cor 1:3, 11:31, Rom 15:6, Eph 1:3,17, Heb 1:1-9, 1 Pet 1:3, Rev 1:6, 3:2,12. In HIs Debt/Grace Tanyan LDS JEDI KNGHT.
johnny Posted January 14, 2009 Posted January 14, 2009 SargonDid you ever wonder if they are called gods because they are gods?Is Satan a god like God the Father?
LifeOnaPlate Posted January 14, 2009 Posted January 14, 2009 The bible teaches a paradox. It teaches that:A) There is only one GodB ) There is more than one GodYou have your respective way of dealing with this, through Greek philosophy. We have our respective way of dealing with it, through common sense and through other biblical passages.I think you put it quite well. I wish johnny could come to an agreement that it is a matter of interpretation.
Tanyan Posted January 14, 2009 Posted January 14, 2009 Many non LDS Christians outside the LDS Mansion have problems with thhe Catholic Form/Model of the Trinity - http://www.bible.ca/trinity/trinity-catholic-nicene.htm In His Debt/Grace, Tanyan LDS JEDI KNIGHT. Repost.
Sargon Posted January 14, 2009 Author Posted January 14, 2009 SargonThere is no paradox. The Bible reveals that:A ) there is none other God but one B ) there is that called godsThe way I have presented it is consistent with the teachings of Jesus and his apostles. Neither the OT nor the NT reveal “three Gods” like Mormonism.1 Tim 2: 5 5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;How can you reconcile this with the Trinity? The man Jesus Christ is the mediator, he is a third party. He is not the "one God" party and he is not the "men" party. That is what a mediator is, a third part. He cannot be part of that "one God."Nonetheless, he is called "god" in other places. It doesn't work to appeal to his hypostatic union claiming that the verse says that only the "man" part of Jesus is the mediator. That is completely contrary to Christian theology, which demands that mediation is only possible precisely because the mediator is divine. Therefore, we conclude that the bible speaks of "one God" which does not include Jesus Christ, yet is also designates Christ as "god" in other instances. Same goes for the Holy Spirit. We have three gods, and we simultaneously have "one God." We reconcile this by appealing to other scriptures which explain this mystery in terms of their love, power, and purpose. You explain it by making up unbiblical concepts like "homoousia".SargonIs Satan a god like God the Father?He is the same fundamental species, yes. However, as you know, that is about where the comparison ends.
Notquitewetyet Posted January 14, 2009 Posted January 14, 2009 How can you reconcile this with the Trinity? The man Jesus Christ is the mediator, he is a third party. He is not the "one God" party and he is not the "men" party. That is what a mediator is, a third part. He cannot be part of that "one God."Nonetheless, he is called "god" in other places. It doesn't work to appeal to his hypostatic union claiming that the verse says that only the "man" part of Jesus is the mediator. That is completely contrary to Christian theology, which demands that mediation is only possible precisely because the mediator is divine. Therefore, we conclude that the bible speaks of "one God" which does not include Jesus Christ, yet is also designates Christ as "god" in other instances. Same goes for the Holy Spirit. We have three gods, and we simultaneously have "one God." We reconcile this by appealing to other scriptures which explain this mystery in terms of their love, power, and purpose. You explain it by making up unbiblical concepts like "homoousia".Homoousia doesn't have to do with Christ's mediatorship as much as Catholics believe his dyphisite nature does, fully God and fully man. It's totally separate issue from Arianism, and it was defined at the Council of Chalcedon.
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