Music in Church

[Buckeye]

Consig,

I don't have a CHI handy, but I believe most all strings are acceptable with the exception of guitars. Woodwinds too, though they tend to be more rare.

As for getting bored after 10 years, why do you think you wouldn't get bored of other instruments if they were allowed?

And a suggestion. I have recently learned that the tune to which John Taylor sung "A Poor Wayfaring Man of Grief" in Carthage was different from the tune we currently use. Maybe you could track down the original tune and help the choir to sing it. Both historically educating and spiritually edifying.

[LeSellers]

I though we supposed to make a JOYFUL sound unto the Lord.

It's a "joyful noise". Which is a blessing, otherwise, I'd be forbidden to participate.

Lehi

[thesometimesaint]

Lehi:

I've heard some sounds that could only be classified as noise, joyful is another matter.

[LDSToronto]

I don't have a CHI handy, but I believe most all strings are acceptable with the exception of guitars. Woodwinds too, though they tend to be more rare.

As I've quoted in another message, it seems as though guitars are not forbidden.H.

[semlogo]

charity:

I agree. I just grow increasingly tired of the emotions consistently being those associated with a funeral dirge. I though we supposed to make a JOYFUL sound unto the Lord.

I get what you mean. To be fair, a lot of the blame lies with us, the members, for not singing with enthusiasm.

[daz2]

It is urban legend or Mormon folklore that guitars are forbidden in sacrament meetings, or that there is a specified list or brass or percussion that is or is not permitted, or that only green book hymns can be sung. In addition to the CHI cite, take a look at the official lds.org music Qs and As. (See in particular 12 and 13)

http://www.lds.org/pa/display/0,17884,6755-1,00.html

[emeliza]

Sounds like it is saying that brass and percussions aren't suppose to be used to me. Obviously there will always be some exceptions though.

May the guitar be used in sacrament meeting?

"Organs and pianos are the standard instruments used in Church meetings. If other instruments are used, their use should be in keeping with the spirit of the meeting" ("Music," 289).

May brass instruments be used in sacrament meeting?

"Instruments with a prominent or less worshipful sound, such as most brass and percussion, are not appropriate for sacrament meeting" ("Music," 289). "Careful selection and proper performance of music can greatly enhance the spirit of worship" ("Music," 289).

[CQUIRK]

As a ex-EV, I grew up hearing a Christian rock band in my Church every time.

I got so sick of it that when I began investigating the LDS Church, being at a Sacrament meeting for the first time greatly impressed my mind.

Any LDS that thinks the current style of music is stale and depressing obviously lacks taste or any appreciation in traditional music.

The organ, especially the pipe organ is one of my most favorite musical instruments, its sad that fewer and fewer young people fail to see any beauty in traditional Church music and its instruments.

If people are unenthusiastic about their Church music, then maybe they need to pick different hymns. For example, I've noticed sometimes through a whole Church service, all of the hymns would sing on the subject of the Atonement.

Maybe we simply need to pick different hymns from the book that deal with different subjects, like we sing one hymn on the restoration, then we sing about Joseph Smith in the next hymn, etc.

If people don't like how Sacrament music is conducted- then tough poop!

If we start changing the way we sing in Church, then we also should dump our dress code too- let people come to Church wearing whatever they want.

If we start changing our style, then we minus well start changing our beliefs too, obviously it would come to that if we start behaving like a mainstream Protestant denomination, that bends wherever the wind will blow.

(Angry sarcasm off)

[Jeff K.]

As a ex-EV, I grew up hearing a Christian rock band in my Church every time.

Go Stryper!

[Heartleap]

I tend to grow weary of piano and organ and the same old songs every week in Church.

Like most things, I really liked it during my first ten-years or so, but over a stretch of 30-years, it sorta grows "weary, flat, stale and unprofitable."

My perception is that others must feel the same way, because when our congregation sings the hymns, it sounds like a funeral.

I keep looking around for the casket.

One of the things I envy about Evangelical Christian congregations is their use of additional instruments, hand-clapping, and more folksy, sing-a-long music.

I know Gladys Knight is trying to make some inroads on this, but so far they haven't trickled down to my ward.

Am I alone in this view?

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

You would think that since you have modern day Prophets they would not keep the music to mid 1800's standards. I have really grown to love Christian Contemporary music. It draws me so close to Christ. This is one freedom in Christ I would never trade back... what is so evil about brass, guitars and drums? God made them for our good. We did a drum cadence to the Lord on New years eve at midnight at our Church it was really awesome. You let the youth have dances to secular, worldly music, why not make that music into songs of worship and use the dances instead as times to go after God instead of each other? Our youth prefer the worship...

Heartleap...

[mpschmitt]

I tend to grow weary of piano and organ and the same old songs every week in Church.

Like most things, I really liked it during my first ten-years or so, but over a stretch of 30-years, it sorta grows "weary, flat, stale and unprofitable."

My perception is that others must feel the same way, because when our congregation sings the hymns, it sounds like a funeral.

I keep looking around for the casket.

One of the things I envy about Evangelical Christian congregations is their use of additional instruments, hand-clapping, and more folksy, sing-a-long music.

I know Gladys Knight is trying to make some inroads on this, but so far they haven't trickled down to my ward.

Am I alone in this view?

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

Our Bishop just let me do a guitar and vocal version of "The First Noel" as part of a Christmas themed Sacrament meeting. It went well. I've also heard nice numbers with other stringed instruments and an occasional clarinet or something when someone in the ward has a particular gift or talent.

I'm a big fan of Contemporary Christian music as well (which I've actually been meaning to post a topic on, so I think I will). I like a lot of different groups with varied musical styles Jars of Clay (love those guys), Bebo Norman, Chris Rice, Stephen Curtis Chapman, Switchfoot, Relient K, MuteMath, Third Day, Lecrae, etc, etc... While I appreciate this music and it's nice to listen to something with a beat when I'm working in the yard or something that also has wholesome and reverent lyrics (instead of the worldly lyrics that so often accompany rock music), there are a number of songs that I wouldn't bring into a sacrament meeting.

I hear what you're saying though. Sometimes when the music is not very up tempo, and if it's sung in a droll pedestrian tone, it can lack something. The real magic happens when the ward begins to focus on the words of the music and sing out in a spirit of worship. That transformation can happen, but it needs to be discussed openly and encouraged openly somehow. I think the reason why certain instruments (full drumsets, etc) are not allowed in sacrament meeting is that there is a certain line which, when crossed, increases the likelihood that what will be presented will not be reverent worship but a performance, and that people will be caught up in the emotion of the event, thinking that they've actually found a worship experience. Evangelical churches also sometimes struggle with this. I've been to some evangelical services where there were drums played or more contemporary music, but a worshipful attitude. But I've also been to some where what was happening was clearly more about the performer and the performance than the Lord. Of course that can happen in any style of music.

Personally, I find for the sacredness of the sacrament meeting and the sabbath day, a more subdued, reverent, meditative style of music helps to set the day aside as a special day for me. While I like a lot of the groups I mention above, some of them are not Sunday music for me, even though the words are certainly of good report and praiseworthy. But subdued, meditative music can be just as powerful if it is done right and can make a Sabbath day all the sweeter. Check out some John Rutter choral music for one example of some beautiful, worshipful stuff that has quiet power to it. His arrangements are some of my favorites...

The Hymns of the Church have been a part of many sacred personal moments for me in sacrament meetings in ways that other forms of music just haven't reached me. To be sure, I've had moments of enlightenment or spiritual uplift listening to contemporary Christian music, but the hymns move me in a special way. Actually Jars of Clay did an interesting project a few years back where they did more contemporary versions of traditional hymns called "Redemption Songs" that might interest you. I enjoyed it quite a bit as it did a more rocky (yet still reverent) take on traditional arrangements.

[Bernard Gui]

Nothing swings like a good brass section!

And nothing sounds worse than a bad brass section...

unless it's a bad sax section.

Bernard

[BugsNRoo]

I am my ward's chorister, so this has been a very interesting topic to me, and I'm taking notes as I read! I have a fantastic organist, so our hymns are always quick and lively. He also likes to embellish a lot, so a lot of the time we will have a really powerful final verse of some songs. He always keeps the sacrament hymns subdued, of course, but all the rest of the hymns are fair game. He occasionally has a pianist play while he plays the organ, which is always really fun and beautiful. I always direct toward the faster end of things, and the congregation keeps up really well.

I have an excel spreadsheet template that I use for choosing hymns that works wonderfully well for me. It allows me to be able to easily electronically transfer the hymn information to those who need to know it. It also helps me to keep track of how often we sing the hymns, so we're not singing the same 20-30 hymns in rotation (other than sacrament hymns). I try not to repeat hymns too often. I've actually been requested to include more "familiar" hymns in the lineup, so I've been trying to include a very familiar hymn every other week. It's hard for me to know which hymns are more familiar because I am a musician and always sang in choirs, learned to play random hymns out of the hymnbook, etc, so sometimes I forget that hymns that are familiar to me aren't familiar to everyone. We do sing a "transition hymn" after closing prayer to help us become familiar with hymns that aren't sung very often, which I will include in sacrament meeting sometime later.

As far as other instruments, we had a guitar rendition of "Silent Night" last month. It was quite lovely. Also the music chairperson has a lot of freedom in selecting the musical numbers to be performed in church-- as long as it's keeping with the spirit of the meeting it is fine. We occasionally get violin or flute performances in addition to the usual soloists. What I would LOVE to hear is a string quartet in sacrament meeting. That would be so cool and a big change from the ordinary.

And to Mudcat, I think it was, who is only familiar with the LDS hymn "Come Thou Font," unfortunately this hymn is no longer in our hymnbooks (but we do sing it a lot as musical numbers!).

[jadams_4242]

I tend to grow weary of piano and organ and the same old songs every week in Church.

Like most things, I really liked it during my first ten-years or so, but over a stretch of 30-years, it sorta grows "weary, flat, stale and unprofitable."

My perception is that others must feel the same way, because when our congregation sings the hymns, it sounds like a funeral.

I keep looking around for the casket.

One of the things I envy about Evangelical Christian congregations is their use of additional instruments, hand-clapping, and more folksy, sing-a-long music.

I know Gladys Knight is trying to make some inroads on this, but so far they haven't trickled down to my ward.

Am I alone in this view?

All the Best!

jadams_4040

Sounds to me as yer ward is not very spiritual; sometimes i find this in any given ward; and it pays off in knowledge and inspiration to attend a couple other wards in differant areas. It always gives the "wake up" i need and teaches me a little more in how to help spread more spirit among complacent ward members.

[mpschmitt]

"Come Thou Font," unfortunately this hymn is no longer in our hymnbooks (but we do sing it a lot as musical numbers!).

I absolutely love that hymn. The melody never ceases to set my soul at ease and the words are beautiful.

Anyone know why it was removed?

[koakaipo]

The hymns are for our spiritual learning. They arn't for mere entertainment. The Holy Ghost doesn't operate in loud obnoxious music and hand clapping, that would be emotion. Where do you draw the line between emotion and the spirit?

Why is hand clapping seen as emotional?

I also think emotion and spirit aren't mutually exclusive. I remember the Gospel group the Blind Boys of Alabama came to BYU-H and performed to a packed auditorium of students. So many people ended up being in tears at different times during the performance, because the music and their witnessing were very touching. I think people got emotional, but I also think people were feeling the Spirit at the same time.

[Bernard Gui]

Lengthy rant by a church musician, but worth the read, IMHO.

This is a topic on which I have given much thought over the years.

I'm a professional musician (violin/viola/composer/conductor/teacher).

I play organ and piano at church and have been a chorister many times.

Most of us confuse the emotion created by music with the feelings

engendered by the Holy Spirit. One is contrived, the other usually

come when least expected. There is a qualitative difference between

the two.

Lots of us professional musicians look askance at LDS church music.

They think it is below contempt. Some even poopoo our beloved

Tabernacle Choir. These have made a bad name for us and make

us a subject of suspicion for our leaders.

I'm not one of them. Here's why:

We don't have a professional music ministry. Most of our music people

have some training, some have none. They are fulfilling a calling that

may stretch their talents and abilities and test our brotherly kindness.

Christian charity and our covenants

and sustaining votes should inspire us to support them as much as possible.

Sacrament Meeting

Sacrament meeting is not the place for musical performance and entertainment.

There are plenty of opportunities to perform outside of sacrament meeting.

There is no way to tickle everyone's ears with the type of music they

prefer. People are extremely defensive about their musical tastes.

Some would like bluesy style gospel, some like high country bluegrass whine,

some dig Bach and Rutter, some like hip-hop, some like to mope to Indy,

some wail to Goth, and all are willing to fight to the death over which is better.

Very few are willing to give an inch. People are passionate about their tunes

as they are about their sports teams or favorite animals. Best to leave that spirit out of sacrament

meeting.

Secular music in church

Since the time of the Hebrews, there has been a division between secular and sacred music.

It is a conflict that has raged in church since churches started to meet.

For centuries, unaccompanied Gregorian chant was the only music permitted in Christian churches.

Now one has to look far and wide to find a church with good chant, or buy it on a CD.

Some chafe at having to sing the same hymns for 20 or 30 years.

How about singing the same chants for almost 2,000 years? Thanks to Vatican II

that practice was changed, much to the disappointment of many who still value the

corpus of vocal Gregorian chant to be one of the greatest contributions of Christianity

to art and music. Some are trying to revive it as a worldwide practice. More power to them.

Instrumental music was forbidden in churches for millenia, but eventually "low" or "soft" instruments

were allowed to perform (viols, recorders). The violin family was considered vulgar

and inappropriate for church use until they eventually supplanted the viol family.

Dance forms such as gavotte, minuet, galliard, saraband, pavan, etc.were not allowed in church.

Composers wrote church sonatas (sonata da chiesa) for sacred performance and secular

sonatas that used the dance forms (sonata da camara) for secular performance. "Loud"

instruments (brass, percussion, and most wind for centuries) were used outdoors for

public ceremonies and military purposes.

It is only in very recent times that "popular" instruments...guitar, drum, trumpet, saxophone,

etc., have been introduced into church services...much to the dismay of many traditionalists

including myself.

I played for a Mozart mass in a local Korean Presbyterian Church recently. Before the

performance, they had their "youth praise band" play. Oh my. Anyway, I looked around the

congregation and saw some of the young folks grooving, but most of the older members

were staring sadly at the floor. Something valuable had been lost. I understood their feelings.

I play in a show orchestra for a local "big box" Christian church. They also have a huge Praise

Band that rocks for Christ on Sundays in the main auditorium. Many of the players are

professional performers and there are several paid ministers of music who run the

show. They have hundreds of thousands of dollars worth of audio/video equipment and

very high production standards...smoke and all. It's a great show, but really, I can't dig it as worship music. Sorry.

What is the Purpose of Music in Church?

The great 19th-century Protestant church musician Lowell Mason once said something along the

line of "if after a church service people come up and tell me how much they enjoyed my music,

then I have failed as a church musician. If they come up and tell me how the music brought

them closer to God, then I have succeeded." Many times, musicians are in it for the glory first,

for God second.

A while back, a prominent BYU professor and his wife did a musical fireside for LDS wards in

which they addressed this issue. He played the piano and viola, and she sang a song that

was up-beat, groovy, hip. It had some romantic, not quite suggestive lyrics, something you

might hear in a night club. It was well-performed and very entertaining. Then they did it again

but with the real words...an LDS "pop" hymn describing the First Vision and the Restoration.

Good lyrics, but not matched with appropriate music.

Many times we make the mistake of conflating sacred lyrics and secular music...sacred text should have sacred music

to support it. "I love you Jesus. Praise him, Praise, Praise!" shouted and accompanied by three chord

guitars, blazing brass, thumping bass, Korg keyboards, percussion in a sound box, and ladies screaming into microphones...is

that really worship music? Really?

I think of the few accounts of those who actually have come into the physical presence of Jesus. The universal reaction

was to fall at his feet, not raise a screaming riff on a Les Paul. If Jesus were to come into the assembly, what form

would the praise take? That is the form it should always take, even when we are only the presence of the Holy Spirit,

in my opinion.

The only scriptural account of New Testament Christian music is the Passover psalm sung at the Last Supper. Simple, spiritual. That is the

pattern that was set for sacrament meeting, which is in similitude of that event. No guitars, no sitars, no sackbuts or crumhorns,

no cymbals, no pianos or organs. Just a hymn.

I hope LDS stick to their standards and reserve sacrament meeting for simple hymns with simple

accompaniment. It's nice to have an hour of quiet during the hectic week. If we are going to

pine away for more entertainment during sacrament meeting, then we need to get into

professional music ministry, because nothing sucks as bad as a poorly performed gospel

rock song. Just my opinion.

If we want to rock out, why not organize a Friday or Saturday night talent show, and let the kazoos, bagpipes,

accordians, banjos, trumpets, guitars, rock to their hearts' content?

Last week we had a sacrament meeting unlike most others I have attended. People were invited to come forward

and tell of a sacred experience they had with a particular hymn and then the congregation sang the hymn.

Powerful stuff! One of the best in my memory.

I would like to see the church music committee upgrade our hymns, not to a modernistic pop style, but to a more

highly refined marriage of sacred text with sacred music. Many old hymns do this very successfully: "Oh God the

Eternal Father," "Upon the Cross of Calvary," "Jesus the Very Thought of Thee," "Come Follow Me," "The Wintry

Day Descending to Its Close." Crawford Gates' hymns do this very well, but we only have a few of them in

the hymn book.

Some of our old hymns need to have their music replaced. One successful example of which is "If You Could

Hie to Kolob," where the old bad tune was replaced with a gorgeous setting by Ralph Vaughan-Willliams and

has become a church-wide favorite. The "There Is no end to.....(no end to this part)" could be revised, too. We need

to send some of the "camp meeting" Protestant marchy stuff on its way out the door. In my opinion. But then again,

there are those who would defend "We Are Marching On To Glory" to their dying day. We need excellent text

coupled with excellent music. The trouble is we don't all agree what excellent music is. We even may differ

on what makes a good text. "Rock of Ages?" "How Great Thou Art?" Wellllllll.....

If we don't like the quality of music in our service, what are we doing to improve it? Or are we content just to

criticize those who are trying to do it.

Which brings me to my final thought...

Ralph Vaughan-Williams wrote some of the most sublime sacred Christian music. Heart-meltingly, gut-wrenchingly gorgeous

stuff with fabulous text and fabulous music. Yet he was Agostic. Go figure. Is man's music merely an expression of his

own emotion and intellect?

Bernard

[charity]

I absolutely love that hymn. The melody never ceases to set my soul at ease and the words are beautiful.

Anyone know why it was removed?

References not clear to congregations? Such as Ebenezer?

A desire to save it to be really well done by trained choirs, rather than ordinary congregations?

[Bernard Gui]

I absolutely love that hymn. The melody never ceases to set my soul at ease and the words are beautiful.

Anyone know why it was removed?

Maybe the reference to "thy good pleasure"?

Perhaps it's a bit too far on the Calvinistic side?

Bernard

[Tarski]

Some good electric guitar could bring me back to church. LOL

[Tabitha]

I tend to grow weary of piano and organ and the same old songs every week in Church.

Like most things, I really liked it during my first ten-years or so, but over a stretch of 30-years, it sorta grows "weary, flat, stale and unprofitable."

My perception is that others must feel the same way, because when our congregation sings the hymns, it sounds like a funeral.

I keep looking around for the casket.

One of the things I envy about Evangelical Christian congregations is their use of additional instruments, hand-clapping, and more folksy, sing-a-long music.

I know Gladys Knight is trying to make some inroads on this, but so far they haven't trickled down to my ward.

Am I alone in this view?

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

The ward music person has a lot to do with the quality of music in a ward. The tempo they choose, unique hymn arrangements and additional instruments (flute/violin/organ and piano combinations) can all be used creatively to enhance the music experience and the spirit of the meeting.

I know many people would like a more "upbeat" and "multicultural" approach. I feel that sacred music, played in a sacred manner, is important for us to experience on a regular basis. There are many other venues where religious music can appropriately be used in a more casual or popular style, and I would truly enjoy that. But we need, or at least I need, serious classical hymns.

I don't mean that sacred music should be played solemnly- not at all. But if played properly, classical hymns stretch our minds and hearts to a higher level. There is a reason why Mozart, and not regular pop music, is found to increase intelligence in babies. IMHO most of our society has lost most feelings of sacredness, and I'm grateful to get it once a week in an LDS sacrament service when so few churches offer it anymore.

Part of the problem, though, is many, many LDS music directors lead music as if it were a death march. They seem to think that slowing down the tempo increases the feeling of reverence, when it actually just annoys the heck out of me and I'm sure many others. If I'm ever in a ward where that happens, I simply refuse to sing. If I lived in a ward where the music director did that, I would complain to the bishop.

As great as many of our hymns are, there are a lot of really great hymns that could be included in the hymnal. It's been many years since it was updated. I wouldn't mind throwing out of few of the bad ones like hymn #121, "I'm a Pilgrim, I'm a Stranger." We sang this once, and I almost lost it when we got to the line at the end of verse 2, "Clouds of darkest hue hang o'er me, And I'm apt to go astray With the many, with the many That are now the vulture's prey!" What a cheery thought! You have to sing it to get the full effect, preferably when your stern Stake President is on the stand (he was).

Tabitha.

[jonzlaw]

Hear! Hear!

I don't have a problem with the currently "approved" instruments for Sacrament mtg, although I'm with you that there is NOTHING worse than a performance of violin, viola, or cello by someone who is tone deaf. Oh, the humanity!

I would like to see better performances with the current instruments. I would not be in favor of the kind of stuff I've seen at Evangelical churches. I find it irreverent and antithetical to the Spirit. But maybe I'm just old ...

This thread is a trip! Who exactly "approves" particular instruments in the Mormon church? (or any church for that matter) Doesn't that sort of thing bug any of you folks? Some dude 50+ years ago said that you can't play a guitar in church and now we're all stuck with wholly uninspiring music every Sunday? What a bummer!

I was also taken with your opinion that music at Evangelical churches is "irrelevant" and "antithetical." This is just sad.

[Bernard Gui]

Some good electric guitar could bring me back to church. LOL

Why? Can't you get better stuff off your stereo at home?

Bernard

[charity's child]

I absolutely love that hymn. The melody never ceases to set my soul at ease and the words are beautiful.

Anyone know why it was removed?

I don't know specifically about that one, but I do recall that when they renovated the hymnbook they were trying to make the hymns more singable. Several songs had words or tunes rearranged a little bit (high notes brought down, etc). Maybe they thought that one was too unsingable for the general congregation.

As to changing which hymns are sung in SM, talk to the relief society chorister. She can introduce new hymns for practice and teach the sisters how to sing them. Then they can be added to the SM rotation.

[Bernard Gui]

This thread is a trip! Who exactly "approves" particular instruments in the Mormon church? (or any church for that matter) Doesn't that sort of thing bug any of you folks? Some dude 50+ years ago said that you can't play a guitar in church and now we're all stuck with wholly uninspiring music every Sunday? What a bummer!

I was also taken with your opinion that music at Evangelical churches is "irrelevant" and "antithetical." This is just sad.

I think she said "irreverent." I would agree.

Many churches have lost the idea of reverence for the sacred.

Perhaps that is because they have lost touch with the sacred.

As far as who approves music in the LDS church, that would be the same

people who approve the music in all churches...the church leaders.

Bernard