Evangelical Doctrine in the Book of Mormon

[consiglieri]

Moroni quotes a sermon given by his father, Mormon, which comprises Moroni chapter 7.

Although it deals with a number of issues, one of the most prominent is that of "discernment," or to use Mormon's phrasing, "judgment"; specifically how it is that we are to judge whether something is good or evil.

My experience has been that usually Mormons view this text in a rather superficial manner, concluding that if something is good, it is of God, and if something is evil, it is of the devil.

While this is certainly one of the points made in the sermon, this would hardly need to be said, and indeed Mormon seems to be driving at something deeper.

What follows are a few insights that have occurred to me over the years, and I advance them for public comment together with an invitation for additional insights.

1. The first thing I noted for the first time yesterday was that, remarkably, Mormon is talking to a group of believers in Christ who are engaged in a "peaceable walk" with their fellow man; remarkable because all other textual evidence would lead me to think that absolutely everybody (except Mormon and Moroni) were out trying to kill each other at this time. This passage leads me to think that there were other people who were not out battling every day and thinking up ways to do the Lamanites in. There was a group still in existence, though we don't know how many were in the group, or whether there were more groups than one, who was still following the peaceful way of Jesus.

2. Although I have heard many Mormons interpret this sermon as giving us a guide to judge the deeds of others by whether they are "good" or "evil," Mormon signals early on that it is more complicated than that, when he says that a good fountain brings forth good water, and an evil fountain brings forth evil water. This seems obvious enough, but I think the focus is on the fountain itself.

Mormon seems to liken this to the "intent" of the person who does the deed, or brings forth the "water," going so far as to say that an evil person cannot pray a prayer that is acceptable to God, because his intent is wrong. (Moroni 7:9)

In other words, a good fountain will bring forth good water, regardless of what our perception may be of that water; even if we think the water is evil, it may be good as it comes from a good fountain.

Similarly, an evil fountain will bring forth evil water, regardless of whether we may judge upon outward appearances that the water is good.

This raises the interesting conundrum that acts that appear good may be evil; and acts that appear evil may be good.

It is not the the act that is dispositive, but the nature of the fountain that brings forth the water.

Indeed, both good and evil water may appear identical in nature.

3. Because of this inability to judge whether an act is good or evil by its nature, Mormon seeks to provide a way for his listeners to make true judgment; and this requires divine intervention.

Interestingly, Mormon says that God grants us the ability to make this judgment because of the "light of Christ" that is given to every man. Usually, Mormons just say that this "light of Christ" is another word for our conscience, and that would allow for us to judge our own acts, but I think Mormon is focusing more on judging the acts of others.

4. Mormon also states that we need to "lay hold on every good thing," and that we do so by the power of faith:

Moroni 7:19 Wherefore, I beseech of you, brethren, that ye should search diligently in the light of Christ that ye may know good from evil; and if ye will lay hold upon every good thing, and condemn it not, ye certainly will be a child of Christ.

The phrase "every good thing" is of particular importance in the sermon. Mormon makes it clear that no good thing may be obtained apart from Christ, for Christ is the source of "every good thing."

7:24 And behold, there were divers ways that he did manifest things unto the children of men, which were good; and all things which are good cometh of Christ; otherwise men were fallen, and there could no good thing come unto them.

Here, Mormon indicates that, apart from Christ, there is no good thing in the world, for men are fallen and there could no good thing come unto them. This is remarkable, I think.

Mormon argues for a specific meaning to the term, "good thing." While people apart from Christ can do many things that are beneficial and self-sacrificing, they would fall outside Mormon's definition of "good."

People who are trying to "work their way to salvation" by their own works are doomed to failure, according to Mormon, for the only way to produce "good water" is to be a "good fountain," and nobody can be a "good fountain" unless they have faith in Christ.

5. I think this is why Mormon says that what is "good" is what persuades us to believe in Christ, (the only source of that which is good), and what is "evil" is what dissuades us from believing in Christ. (Moroni 7:16-17)

Indeed, when it comes to discussing how to obtain "charity," or as Mormon puts it earlier, "laying hold upon every good thing," Mormon is clear this is not done out of self-discipline apart from Christ, as that would be as impossible as an "evil" fountain bringing forth "good" water.

Instead, Mormon make it clear that there is only one source for obtaining charity, and it is not from within ourselves. Rather, it is only from God that the gift of charity may come, and it comes upon praying with all the energy of our hearts to God to be filled with it. (Moroni 7:48)

6. Finally, I ask myself why it is that Mormon wants his listeners to be able to judge correct judgment. I believe that one possible answer may be that this sermon is Mormon's way of justifying to his listeners his own actions. We know that his listeners are the "peaceable followers of Christ." But we also know that Mormon led the wicked Nephites in battle against the Lamanites, gave it up for a while out of disgust, and later resumed his generalship.

What if some among the "peaceable followers" he was addressing had difficulty understanding how Mormon could be considered "one of them" in spite of the fact that he was engaged in leading the wicked Nephites in war? What could Mormon say to justify his actions in their eyes?

I think what we have here in Mormon's sermon may be a way of explaining to his listeners that, while Mormon's actions may seem evil to them, and may for all intents and purposes be indistinguishable from the actions of the wicked Nephites, their judgment must go deeper than that, to the thoughts and intents of the heart; that the other wicked Nephites who are engaging in warfare are acting wickedly because they themselves are wicked; but for Mormon to engage in the same conduct is "good" because Mormon himself is "good," having faith in Christ who is the source of all that is good.

All of which puts me in mind of Joseph Smith's statement that what is wrong under one circumstance may be right under another.

Conclusion

This is only one of the subjects dealt with in this sermon, and even as to this one aspect, I think that this sermon may be an often under-valued text in the Book of Mormon, and wonder if others have anything else to add to the subject.

At the very least, this sermon appears to be advancing doctrines with which Evangelicals may feel more comfortable than some Mormons.

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

[Glenn101]

Consig,

I would beg to differ with you just a bit in your reading of this particular passage. Take for instance your idea that:

In other words, a good fountain will bring forth good water, regardless of what our perception may be of that water; even if we think the water is evil, it may be good as it comes from a good fountain.

Similarly, an evil fountain will bring forth evil water, regardless of whether we may judge upon outward appearances that the water is good.

This raises the interesting conundrum that acts that appear good may be evil; and acts that appear evil may be good.

It is not the the act that is dispositive, but the nature of the fountain that brings forth the water.

Indeed, both good and evil water may appear identical in nature.

3. Because of this inability to judge whether an act is good or evil by its nature, Mormon seeks to provide a way for his listeners to make true judgment; and this requires divine intervention.

In this same chapter, Mormon tells us "16 For behold, the Spirit of Christ is given to every man, that he may know good from evil; wherefore, I show unto you the way to judge; for every thing which inviteth to do good, and to persuade to believe in Christ, is sent forth by the power and gift of Christ; wherefore ye may know with a perfect knowledge it is of God.

17 But whatsoever thing persuadeth men to do evil, and believe not in Christ, and deny him, and serve not God, then ye may know with a perfect knowledge it is of the devil; for after this manner doth the devil work, for he persuadeth no man to do good, no, not one; neither do his angels; neither do they who subject themselves unto him.

18 And now, my brethren, seeing that ye know the light by which ye may judge, which light is the light of Christ, see that ye do not judge wrongfully; for with that same judgment which ye judge ye shall also be judged."

Indeed, we may not be able to tell by appearances if a fountain is good or evil, but we can tell by the nature of the fruit, i.e. the acts. As far as divine intervention, each of us, (every man) is given the light of Christ. We do not necessarily have to have faith is Christ to know good from evil, but do need the light of Christ. Else none of the non-Christian nations would have that knowledge.I don't really see what doctrines in this chapter would be more comfortable for the evangelicals than the LDS.

QUOTE

"7:24 And behold, there were divers ways that he did manifest things unto the children of men, which were good; and all things which are good cometh of Christ; otherwise men were fallen, and there could no good thing come unto them."

Here, Mormon indicates that, apart from Christ, there is no good thing in the world, for men are fallen and there could no good thing come unto them. This is remarkable, I think.

Mormon argues for a specific meaning to the term, "good thing." While people apart from Christ can do many things that are beneficial and self-sacrificing, they would fall outside Mormon's definition of "good."

People who are trying to "work their way to salvation" by their own works are doomed to failure, according to Mormon, for the only way to produce "good water" is to be a "good fountain," and nobody can be a "good fountain" unless they have faith in Christ.

Now if one reads 7:24 in the context laid out in 16 through 18, one could say just as well that all good comes through the influence of the light of Christ and conversely, all bad things come through the influence of Satan (the fountains).

I do not know anyone that is completely evil or completely good although I do know some that lean more heavily in one direction or the other.

Lastly, we must always look at any of our scriptures in light of all the other revealed truths and not let it stand alone for our understanding.

Glenn

[consiglieri]

I do not know anyone that is completely evil or completely good although I do know some that lean more heavily in one direction or the other.

Thanks for the post, Glenn!

I am just thrilled that anybody saw fit to say anything about the subject. I know it is a slow day, what with it being my dad's 89th birthday and all.

I agree with your comment above, but this is one of the reasons I find this sermon so interesting; Mormon would seem to categorize people as "good" or "evil" based not so much on what they do, but rather upon their faith in Jesus Christ, or lack thereof.

There seems to be no middle-ground here.

I agree that I, too, look at people and "judge" them based on their actions; that there are good and evil actions done by pretty much everybody, and so I would "judge" that nobody is completely good or completely evil.

But is Mormon perhaps enjoining a radically different way of looking at things; not on the "fruits" themselves, but on the people who work the "fruits"?

And does this not indicate Mormon's view that bad people can do things that look "evil," and evil people can do things that look "good"?

Anyway, I find Mormon's sermon fascinating and am grateful for the dialogue you have offered on this chilly December day!

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

[Mudcat]

Hey Consig,

I think the underlying premise for your post is that an action/deed/etc.. can be percieved as good, but be done with evil intent. If so what would be an example?

Antithetically, I would ask, can an action/deed/etc.. also be percieved as evil and yet be done with good intentions? If so what would be an example?

Respects,

Mudcat

P.S. - I am making a note to consider your thoughts when I got to Moroni.... it may be a bit, as I am only to Helaman 4 at present.

EDIT ADD -

My apologies for the above questions, I think I was being rather unimaginative yesterday.

I think I figured this out.

[consiglieri]

P.S. - I am making a note to consider your thoughts when I got to Moroni.... it may be a bit, as I am only to Helaman 4 at present.

Hi, Mudcat!

At the rate you are going, you should be to Moroni in no time at all! (Have you been praying as you go? )

The main example I can give is the one I think Mormon may have been drawing; that of his going to war and it being a "good" thing, while the other Nephites go to war and it is an "evil" thing. Here we have the exact same act, but it being "good" for Mormon and "evil" for the other Nephites.

I am excited this morning, because last night, as I completed my reading of the Book of Mormon, I found two additional passages that seem to corroborate my understanding of Mormon's radical reconceptualization of "good" and "evil."

1. In Mormon's sermon against infant baptism, he saves his strongest words for those who simply think that children need to be baptized:

Mormon 8:13 Wherefore, if little children could not be saved without baptism, these must have gone to an endless hell.

14 Behold I say unto you, that he that supposeth that little children need baptism is in the gall of bitterness and in the bonds of iniquity; for he hath neither faith, hope, nor charity; wherefore, should he be cut off while in the thought, he must go down to hell.

This is amazing! Mormon's way of viewing things is capable of damning somebody to hell merely for thinking a certain way. He sets forth his reasoning elsewhere in the sermon, but this is the focal point for purposes of our discussion.

No action is required. A person doesn't have to do an "evil" work. All a person has to do is have a thought that precludes faith, hope and charity, and they are damned.

This is especially interesting with regards to "charity." I would naturally think that both "faith" and "hope" are states of being, but I would typically think that "charity" is not a state of being, but an outward action.

Here, Mormon contravenes my notions, stating that "charity" is also a state of being, and that the particular doctrinal stance of believing infants need to be baptized divests one of "charity," and simply believing this constitutes a sufficient basis for condemnation.

Here, Mormon is dealing directly with the "fountain" regardless of the "water" that flows from it. The "fountain" itself is evil, regardless of how appears the "water" that flows from it.

2. The next passage is from Moroni 10, where Moroni, having imbibed his father's teachings in this regard, makes the following radical statement, in which he confirms that absent belief/faith in God, people are incapable of doing "good":

Moroni 10:21 And except ye have charity ye can in nowise be saved in the kingdom of God; neither can ye be saved in the kingdom of God if ye have not faith; neither can ye if ye have no hope.

22 And if ye have no hope ye must needs be in despair; and despair cometh because of iniquity.

23 And Christ truly said unto our fathers: If ye have faith ye can do all things which are expedient unto me.

24 And now I speak unto all the ends of the earthâ??that if the day cometh that the power and gifts of God shall be done away among you, it shall be because of unbelief.

25 And wo be unto the children of men if this be the case; for there shall be none that doeth good among you, no not one. For if there be one among you that doeth good, he shall work by the power and gifts of God.

26 And wo unto them who shall do these things away and die, for they die in their sins, and they cannot be saved in the kingdom of God; and I speak it according to the words of Christ; and I lie not.

It seems clear from this passage that Moroni agreed with his father that the only way for people to do "good" is through a "belief" in God; and that absent this belief in God, people are incapable of doing "good."

An understanding of this Book of Mormon teaching opens the door to a deeper understanding of the role of Christ in our salvation. Those who believe the Book of Mormon cannot say that they are capable of doing any good thing of themselves, for the Book of Mormon teaches that Christ is the source of "every good thing," and that apart from Christ, men are incapable of doing anything that is "good."

It also seems to suggest that, once in Christ, whatever a person does is considered "good" because the fountain is now "good," and hence any water that flows from it must also be "good."

Having said this, I think it prudent to add that it would probably contravene the Book of Mormon to suppose that this means that once a person has faith in Christ, they may do anything they wish, and break any commandment they want, and it will still be considered a "good" deed. I think the Book of Mormon still stands for the proposition that one who has faith in Christ will also have a hope in Christ; and that these two fully realized within our hearts will ineluctably lead to "charity," and that one filled with "charity" is not going to go out doing bad things to his fellow man.

Nevertheless, I believe this is a radical reconceptualization of good and evil presented in the final chapters of the Book of Mormon, and this alone more than justifies the additional writings contained in the Book of Moroni.

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

[Mudcat]

Hi, Mudcat!

<snipped>

It also seems to suggest that, once in Christ, whatever a person does is considered "good" because the fountain is now "good," and hence any water that flows from it must also be "good."

Having said this, I think it prudent to add that it would probably contravene the Book of Mormon to suppose that this means that once a person has faith in Christ, they may do anything they wish, and break any commandment they want, and it will still be considered a "good" deed. I think the Book of Mormon still stands for the proposition that one who has faith in Christ will also have a hope in Christ; and that these two fully realized within our hearts will ineluctably lead to "charity," and that one filled with "charity" is not going to go out doing bad things to his fellow man.

Nevertheless, I believe this is a radical reconceptualization of good and evil presented in the final chapters of the Book of Mormon, and this alone more than justifies the additional writings contained in the Book of Moroni.

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

Hey Consig,

I suppose I am having a bit of difficulty with this statement, emphasis mine. I suppose as I see it, those who have become a new person in Christ still have to contend with there old sin nature. So if a Christian sins, it would implicate that sin is 'good', which I would find difficulty agreeing with. I do believe Christ gives us the strength to put off the our old nature, but it is an act of discipline and faith.

In the analogy of the fountains, perhaps Christ brings for a good fountain within us, yet we still have the power to go back and drink from the evil fountain as well. Maybe there is more to it than a means of perceiving the actions of others. It could also be a method in judging the actions and intents of ourselves.

Regardless, I think with the verbiage in Moroni, the concept of interpreting 'after all we can do', lends itself more heavily upon grace than what is typically promulgated.

Respectfully,

Mudcat

[Glenn101]

Thanks for the post, Glenn!

I am just thrilled that anybody saw fit to say anything about the subject. I know it is a slow day, what with it being my dad's 89th birthday and all.

I agree with your comment above, but this is one of the reasons I find this sermon so interesting; Mormon would seem to categorize people as "good" or "evil" based not so much on what they do, but rather upon their faith in Jesus Christ, or lack thereof.

There seems to be no middle-ground here.

I agree that I, too, look at people and "judge" them based on their actions; that there are good and evil actions done by pretty much everybody, and so I would "judge" that nobody is completely good or completely evil.

But is Mormon perhaps enjoining a radically different way of looking at things; not on the "fruits" themselves, but on the people who work the "fruits"?

I don't know about radically different. Remember, this sermon was presented in a synagogue, presumably to believers and members of the Church of Christ. Christ expects more (faith, works, etc.) from those of the faith. Remember what He said to the 14 And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God;

15 I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I would thou wert cold or hot.

16 So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth.

A supposed believer without faith and works would indeed seem to be classed as "evil".

And does this not indicate Mormon's view that bad people can do things that look "evil," and evil people can do things that look "good"?

I think that you meant to say 'good people can do things that look "evil" ' there. I agree somewhat with that, but don't have time to add my two cents worth as my two year old grand (and she really is) just hopped onto my lap and want me to find some pictures of babies for her. If I don't, she will write all over all of the cd-roms I have left siting around on my cluttered desk.

Anyway, I find Mormon's sermon fascinating and am grateful for the dialogue you have offered on this chilly December day!

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

The best to you also.

Glenn

[annewandering]

I don't think he means a person is condemned for a thought. He is condemned for the reason for the thought.

Everyone has thought at one time or other 'how in the world could she/he ever think such a thought?"

Well they think the thought because that is how their mind works. Their mind works that way because that is how their spirit sees things.

In the end we are judged for our spirit. Thought and action are indications of what kind of spirit we have.

[consiglieri]

In the analogy of the fountains, perhaps Christ brings for a good fountain within us, yet we still have the power to go back and drink from the evil fountain as well. Maybe there is more to it than a means of perceiving the actions of others. It could also be a method in judging the actions and intents of ourselves.

In regards to the idea of fountains, I noticed another passage by Moroni that seems to fit into this discussion.

It is the lesser quoted verse that occurs right after the famous Ether 12:27, both of which are rendered below:

Ether 12:27--And if men come unto me I will show unto them their weakness. I give unto men weakness that they may be humble; and my grace is sufficient for all men that humble themselves before me; for if they humble themselves before me, and have faith in me, then will I make weak things become strong unto them.

28 Behold, I will show unto the Gentiles their weakness, and I will show unto them that faith, hope and charity bringeth unto meâ??the fountain of all righteousness.

Here, Christ refers to himself as the "fountain of all righteousness."

There is no other "good fountain" in all the universe! The question then becomes, if Christ is "the fountain of all righteousness," how are we to become "good fountains" that produce "good water"?

Again, I think the answer is consistent with the other statements I have quoted from Mormon and Moroni in this regard.

I think Christ is the fountain that we must have within ourselves if we are to be a "good fountain" producing "good water."

And it is faith, hope and charity (again the connection is made!) that brings us to this "good fountain" that is Christ.

This passage adds the insight that it is only after we are shown our "weakness" that we are in a position to begin this spiritual odyssey, an insight that all by itself could spawn numerous sermons.

All the Best!

--Consiglieri