Chapel Mormons Vs. Internet Mormons

[Ipso Facto]

Huh... interesting that you didn't point this vitriol towards Lamanite who admitted his experiences were much the same as mine. But, then again, I guess he is one of you and I am an evil apostate.

The fruits of Mormonism indeed.

And, you know what? That suits me JUST fine. I want no part of your vindictive, cruel, petty and unjust God.

Vitriol?

Interesting.

I'm consistently intrigued, and often amazed, at how exmormons seem to find anger and vitriol where none is apparent or intended.

Nevertheless, I stand by what I wrote above. The kingdom of God is no place for people who are unwilling or unable to use their gift of agency to make contact with their Creator. They neither rejoice in the gift, nor in the Giver of the gift.

[Ipso Facto]

I thank God you ain't the judge. You probably need to rethink this whole mindset, Ipso. Even if you're right, you ain't the one to make the call.

HiJolly

I have neither pretended to be a judge, nor suggested that I will "make the call."

However, I am quite confident of how the judge will "make the call" when the time comes. The criteria have been spelled out quite clearly in the revelations we have already received. The doctrine is not opaque on this issue. People like Scottie will have no excuse at that day, no matter how passionately they attempt to make their case.

[LifeOnaPlate]

Sorry, I have a hard time with the Ipso Facto types on this board. You're right. I reacted badly and I take it back.

Good man!

I have neither pretended to be a judge, nor suggested that I will "make the call."However, I am quite confident of how the judge will "make the call" when the time comes. The criteria have been spelled out quite clearly in the revelations we have already received. The doctrine is not opaque on this issue. People like Scottie will have no excuse at that day, no matter how passionately they attempt to make their case.

I believe whatever "confidence" I have over who gets to go where may very well be unconfidented at that great and last day.

[Hermes]

I have neither pretended to be a judge, nor suggested that I will "make the call."

However, I am quite confident of how the judge will "make the call" when the time comes. The criteria have been spelled out quite clearly in the revelations we have already received. The doctrine is not opaque on this issue. People like Scottie will have no excuse at that day, no matter how passionately they attempt to make their case.

'people like scottie' is a personal attack so please do not cast judgement on board members~hermes

[Scottie]

People like Scottie will have no excuse at that day, no matter how passionately they attempt to make their case.

Again, if this is the God your worship, I want no part of that kingdom.

[selek]

'people like scottie' is a personal attack so please do not cast judgement on board members~hermes

Just for the record, Hermes- "Ipso Facto types" is a personal attack, too.

The constant sneering and naysaying- the incessant mockery and ridicule of LDS belief aren't personal attacks- but they are attacks nonetheless.

Please tell me, which part of "I want no part of your cruel, petty, vindictive God" is conducive to polite discussion?

Is it just me or are the FAITHFUL on this MORMON BOARD being policed more harshly than the trolls, bomb throwers and apostates?

I understand the need to keep order and to keep things civil, but I'm beginning to feel like faithful Mormons are becoming second-class citizens around here.

Justice needs to flow both ways- on the trolls, bomb-throwers and gotcha artists, not just towards those of us who are tired of unfounded scorn, derision, and proselyting on ostebsibly Mormon-friendly boards.

This board used to pride itself on FAIR (pun intended) moderating.

Now it's apparently offering open season and unlimited license to critics, posers, and defilers.

I decided to lurk this morning because I was in a better mood and less contentious.

So much for that idea.

[Ipso Facto]

'people like scottie' is a personal attack so please do not cast judgement on board members~hermes

I only used that phraseology in response to Scottie's "Ipso Facto types" remark. Nevertheless, I will refrain from such phraseology if need be.

[Hermes]

I only used that phraseology in response to Scottie's "Ipso Facto types" remark. Nevertheless, I will refrain from such phraseology if need be.

you started it. do we really need to play immature games about it? second, scottie apologiezed. scottie, do not single out personal attacks in response or otherwise. offending posts should be reported~hermes

Just for the record, Hermes- "Ipso Facto types" is a personal attack, too.The constant sneering and naysaying- the incessant mockery and ridicule of LDS belief aren't personal attacks- but they are attacks nonetheless.Please tell me, which part of "I want no part of your cruel, petty, vindictive God" is conducive to polite discussion?Is it just me or are the FAITHFUL on this MORMON BOARD being policed more harshly than the trolls, bomb throwers and apostates?I understand the need to keep order and to keep things civil, but I'm beginning to feel like faithful Mormons are becoming second-class citizens around here.Justice needs to flow both ways- on the trolls, bomb-throwers and gotcha artists, not just towards those of us who are tired of unfounded scorn, derision, and proselyting on ostebsibly Mormon-friendly boards.This board used to pride itself on FAIR (pun intended) moderating.Now it's apparently offering open season and unlimited license to critics, posers, and defilers.I decided to lurk this morning because I was in a better mood and less contentious.So much for that idea.

being annoyed isnt license to be rude. go read elder hales talk and ask yourself 'lord is it i?'http://lds.org/conference/talk/display/0,5...-947-22,00.html~hermes

[Ipso Facto]

you started it. do we really need to play immature games about it? second, scottie apologiezed. scottie, do not single out personal attacks in response or otherwise. offending posts should be reported~hermesbeing annoyed isnt license to be rude. go read elder hales talk and ask yourself 'lord is it i?'http://lds.org/conference/talk/display/0,5...-947-22,00.html~hermes

What do you mean?

How did I "start" something?

Where? In what way?

Scottie's post preceded mine.

While I can appreciate and respect your desire to have posters refrain from "personal" attacks, I really don't know what you're talking about when you say "you started it."

Interesting.

It would seem that one cannot defend oneself against the attacks of exmormons, subtle and otherwise, that are increasingly commonplace on this message board.

I stand by my assertion that exmormons (like Scottie) will have little excuse, at the final judgment, for failing to utilize their agency to establish communication with God in order to know the truth of all things. If that is heresy on this message board, then I suppose I am a heretic.

[Hermes]

What do you mean?

How did I "start" something?

Where? In what way?

Scottie's post preceded mine.

While I can appreciate and respect your desire to have posters refrain from "personal" attacks, I really don't know what you're talking about when you say "you started it."

Interesting.

It would seem that one cannot defend oneself against the attacks of exmormons, subtle and otherwise, that are increasingly commonplace on this message board.

I stand by my assertion that exmormons (like Scottie) will have little excuse, at the final judgment, for failing to utilize their agency to establish communication with God in order to know the truth of all things. If that is heresy on this message board, then I suppose I am a heretic.

your done in this thread. ~hermes

[Sargon]

Some of my fellow TBM colleagues are starting to make this place feel more like CARM than a place of real dialogue.

[selek]

being annoyed isnt license to be rude. go read elder hales talk and ask yourself 'lord is it i?'http://lds.org/conference/talk/display/0,5...-947-22,00.html~hermes

In other word, yes- faithful Mormons are being held to a different standard than fools, apostates, trolls, and gotcha artists.

In this thread alone, Scottie has accused Mormon sunday school teachers of deliberately teaching falsehoods and Mormons in general of "living in a bubble", being ignorant, decieved, and of not wanting to truly know our religion.

He has mocked, belittled, and derided- and one throw-away apology makes it all better, huh?

Scotty started it in this thread, not Ipso.

Scottie's behavior is part of a long-standing pattern- you'll forgive me if I dont' think a throw-away apology trumps years of abuse, derision, falsity, and mockery.

And I reject your sophistry that because I challenge fools and apostates head-on, that I'm somehow less Christian than someone who looks the other way and pretends nothing is happening.

I know I'm done in this thread- and as punishment for my statements here- will probably be suspened or banned from the boards for a good long while.

But I'm TIRED of moderators looking the other way while the Mormon faith is slandered by the faithless, the clueless, and the bigoted- including the so-called brights who think they're smarter than everyone else here simply because they believe in nothing.

I'm TIRED of the moderators giving voice and platform to people who aren't interested in learning, but come here solely to mock, belittle, and run-down the Church.

We've got ten pages of witless proselyting and dodging by revelation proselyting against the Church. We've got almost a thousand posts by Billy doing nothing but mocking and attacking Mormons. We've got how many threads by wes which consist of nothing but whatever anti-mormon propoganda he'e sucked down from the Tanners?

Not a single one of them has ever demonstrated any interest in learning or in genuine dialogue- but we're expected to put up with the lies, their slander, and their falsehoods?

And you wonder we get a mite tetchy when Mormons are called fools, sheep, and worse? You wonder that we take offense when we're accused of being bigots, abusers, and decievers?

This is supposed to be a Mormon-friendly board- not the Shady Rest and CARM light.

[ttribe]

In other word, yes- faithful Mormons are being held to a different standard than fools, apostates, trolls, and gotcha artists.

In this thread alone, Scottie has accused Mormon sunday school teachers of deliberately teaching falsehoods and Mormons in general of "living in a bubble", being ignorant, decieved, and of not wanting to truly know our religion.

He has mocked, belittled, and derided- and one throw-away apology makes it all better, huh?

Scotty started it in this thread, not Ipso.

Scottie's behavior is part of a long-standing pattern- you'll forgive me if I dont' think a throw-away apology trumps years of abuse, derision, falsity, and mockery.

And I reject your sophistry that because I challenge fools and apostates head-on, that I'm somehow less Christian than you who looks the other way.

I know I'm done in this thread- and as punishment for me statements here, probably from the boards for a good long while.

But I'm TIRED of moderators looking the other way while the Mormon faith is slandered by the faithless, the clueless, and the bigoted- including the so-called brights who think they're smarter than everyone else here simply because they believe in nothing.

[Sargon]

I know I'm done in this thread- and as punishment for my statements here- will probably be suspened or banned from the boards for a good long while.

I second the motion.

[Sargon]

Is church attendance the ONLY measuring guide by which LDS determine the activity rate in Mormonism? I mean, take an exceptional member, following almost all the commandments, yet he doesn't go to church on Sunday. He is labeled "inactive". Yet, the scumbag, wife cheating, lying, porn addict, closet alcoholic attends Sunday meetings regularly and he is labeled "active".

I don't think your assessment is correct that the LDS labels aren't fuzzy.

Recently Elder Holland of the 12 visited my stake and spoke in this exact point. He found it regrettable that the LDS culture does seem to think this way, and he pleaded with us to change the way we think on this matter.

[selek]

I second the motion.

They would be perfectly justified in doing so-

I've directly, publically, and belligerantly challenged a moderator- something that cannot be tolerated if they are to maintain order and civility on the boards.

They will be justified in whatever punishment they decide to mete out- but never let it be said I didn't go out in a blaze of sheep dung.

[Scottie]

In this thread alone, Scottie has accused Mormon sunday school teachers of deliberately teaching falsehoods and Mormons in general of "living in a bubble", being ignorant, decieved, and of not wanting to truly know our religion.

WHAT????

I SPECIFICALLY noted that I did not believe that Sunday school teachers were deliberately teaching false doctrine. If you are going to slander me, at least have the common courtesy to slander me in ways that can't be disproven in 5 seconds.

On the rare occasions that I attend church, I see this often. Mis-informations taught one after the other. And, just to be clear, I don't sense that this is done on purpose in any way. The teachers honestly believe what they are teaching is fact.

It sounds to me that you perceive any challenge against your faith as an unfounded attack. Isn't that the whole point of this board?

Sounds to me that you want an echo chamber where the faithful resound just how perfect the church is.

Your comments show just how little you know about me. There have been many, MANY threads where I have stated how ridiculous the critic position is. Why, just in this thread alone I called the denizens of MDB out on how ridiculous some of their comments were.

It sounds like you are angry at Billy... why am I getting your wrath??

[Jason]

From what I can tell, the non-Mormons on this board receive more warnings, bannings, and suspensions than the Mormons. But I haven't done a survey or anything.

[Hermes]

In other word, yes- faithful Mormons are being held to a different standard than fools, apostates, trolls, and gotcha artists.In this thread alone, Scottie has accused Mormon sunday school teachers of deliberately teaching falsehoods and Mormons in general of "living in a bubble", being ignorant, decieved, and of not wanting to truly know our religion.He has mocked, belittled, and derided- and one throw-away apology makes it all better, huh?Scotty started it in this thread, not Ipso.Scottie's behavior is part of a long-standing pattern- you'll forgive me if I dont' think a throw-away apology trumps years of abuse, derision, falsity, and mockery.And I reject your sophistry that because I challenge fools and apostates head-on, that I'm somehow less Christian than someone who looks the other way and pretends nothing is happening. I know I'm done in this thread- and as punishment for my statements here- will probably be suspened or banned from the boards for a good long while.But I'm TIRED of moderators looking the other way while the Mormon faith is slandered by the faithless, the clueless, and the bigoted- including the so-called brights who think they're smarter than everyone else here simply because they believe in nothing.I'm TIRED of the moderators giving voice and platform to people who aren't interested in learning, but come here solely to mock, belittle, and run-down the Church.We've got ten pages of witless proselyting and dodging by revelation proselyting against the Church. We've got almost a thousand posts by Billy doing nothing but mocking and attacking Mormons. We've got how many threads by wes which consist of nothing but whatever anti-mormon propoganda he'e sucked down from the Tanners?Not a single one of them has ever demonstrated any interest in learning or in genuine dialogue- but we're expected to put up with the lies, their slander, and their falsehoods?And you wonder we get a mite tetchy when Mormons are called fools, sheep, and worse? You wonder that we take offense when we're accused of being bigots, abusers, and decievers?This is supposed to be a Mormon-friendly board- not the Shady Rest and CARM light.

selek- calm down and go read the talk prayerfully. why would i ask someone who doesnt sustain elder hales as a prophet to read his words? you should know better. if you dont like the comments of a poster then report them. acting rude in response is not going to help solve anything it just ends up making mormons look bad, and it flies in the face of elder hales' talk. take a few days off and calm down. im not going to suspend you right now but ask that you police yourself.~hermes

WHAT????I SPECIFICALLY noted that I did not believe that Sunday school teachers were deliberately teaching false doctrine. If you are going to slander me, at least have the common courtesy to slander me in ways that can't be disproven in 5 seconds.It sounds to me that you perceive any challenge against your faith as an unfounded attack. Isn't that the whole point of this board?Sounds to me that you want an echo chamber where the faithful resound just how perfect the church is.Your comments show just how little you know about me. There have been many, MANY threads where I have stated how ridiculous the critic position is. Why, just in this thread alone I called the denizens of MDB out on how ridiculous some of their comments were.It sounds like you are angry at Billy... why am I getting your wrath??

your done here too!~hermes

[LifeOnaPlate]

Some of my fellow TBM colleagues are starting to make this place feel more like CARM than a place of real dialogue.

Amen dude. Good grief, guys, take a step back and ask yourself why you are fuming over this. And to claim the board is favoring critics is simply untrue. Come on.

[Hermes]

PS, from selek who sent me this in a pm, last word.

WHAT????

I SPECIFICALLY noted that I did not believe that Sunday school teachers were deliberately teaching false doctrine. If you are going to slander me, at least have the common courtesy to slander me in ways that can't be disproven in 5 seconds.

I didn't see the disclaimer, only the sneering, "And how many untruths was he trying to pass off as fact?"

It sounds to me that you perceive any challenge against your faith as an unfounded attack. Isn't that the whole point of this board?

No- I don't perceive any challenge against the faith as an unfounded attack- as anyone who's dealt with me well knows.

Sounds to me that you want an echo chamber where the faithful resound just how perfect the church is.

Nonsense- no one who knows me would make that assumption either.

Your comments show just how little you know about me.

There have been many, MANY threads where I have stated how ridiculous the critic position is. Why, just in this thread alone I called the denizens of MDB out on how ridiculous some of their comments were.

You did indeed, and I am grateful for that, though my joy is tempered by the characterizations of Latter-day Saints you made and were called on early in the thread.

It sounds like you are angry at Billy... why am I getting your wrath??

You're not- in point of fact, Hermes got it- deserved or not.

I think I expressed my frustrations fairly clearly.

I don't mind discussion, I don't mind defending the Church against thoughtful or well-researched criticism- which generally means I don't mind arguing with you.

Truth be told- whenever I see you on a thread, I react with a mixture of joy and dread- on the one hand, I know I'm going to have to be on my toes, but on the other I know I'll wind up either learning something or at least looking at things differently.

I do, however, believe that unthinking critics and morons who can't do any better than cut-and-paste Tanner tracts and Chick dropping have been given far too much leeway.

Whatever my feelings, I did over-react, and for that I do apologize.

Believe it or not, I actually consider you one of the best and brightest on the boards (for the reasons I mentioned above), but I also take it personally when you characterize my co-religionists as living in a bubble.

Hermes, you're right.

I did over react- and I'm sorry.

I'll go back through the Hales talk prayerfully this time.

You gents have a good day and a Merry Christmas.

[Jason]

This thread's probably done. The consensus seems to be that at best the division is a gross oversimplification.

[Lamanite]

Yeah...as the starter of the thread feel free to close it.

[Hermes]

closed at request of op~hermes