Where's The Baptism, King Benjamin?

[Mudcat]

I read the speech by King Benjamin in the BoM. I suppose many of you will be unsurprised to find that I came to a great agreement with his words. I find it quite remarkable that his people were saved by faith and there wasn't the first mention of baptism in the text.

Given the fact that King Benjamin had access to records that pointed to baptism, not to mention the visitation from an angel that declared the Gospel unto him.

Somehow, the angel mad no importance of such an ordinance.

Neither did King Benjamin.

How were his people saved without baptism?

Why didn't he bring it up in his discourse to them?

[Zakuska]

Faith is the first principle of the Gospel and the 'Milk of the Milk'. Baptism is the next step. Keep reading. I beleive the next major discourse in the book speaks of the 'waters of Mormon' and baptism.

Mosiah 18

5 Now, there was in Mormon a fountain of pure water, and Alma resorted thither, there being near the water a thicket of small trees, where he did hide himself in the daytime from the searches of the king.

http://scriptures.lds.org/en/mosiah/18/5,8,16,30#5

[LeSellers]

King Benjamin had access to records that pointed to baptism, not to mention the visitation from an angel that declared the Gospel unto him.

Somehow, the angel mad no importance of such an ordinance.

Neither did King Benjamin.

How were his people saved without baptism?

Why didn't he bring it up in his discourse to them?

The people of Zerahemla were already baptized. Benjamin's father, Mosiah I, was instrumental in that. Benjamin himself continued the process (and the church that they headed).

Their previous baptisms were in effect. Baptism remits sins, past and future; it "doth now also save us", and it need not be repeated when one renews his covenants.

Lehi

[Sevenbak]

I read the speech by King Benjamin in the BoM. I suppose many of you will be unsurprised to find that I came to a great agreement with his words. I find it quite remarkable that his people were saved by faith and there wasn't the first mention of baptism in the text.

Given the fact that King Benjamin had access to records that pointed to baptism, not to mention the visitation from an angel that declared the Gospel unto him.

Somehow, the angel mad no importance of such an ordinance.

Neither did King Benjamin.

How were his people saved without baptism?

Why didn't he bring it up in his discourse to them?

I'm not surprised you agree. It's one of the most powerful sermons ever given, past or present. Would that we all would listen!

The people of King Benjamin already had the ordinance of baptism, and they were gathered at the temple, each family tent with the door towered the temple. This was a people who already had the gospel. This was a people whom accepted King Benjamin's word with one voice, and one accord, who fell down and worshiped the future Christ. This was a people who were given a new name by their prophet and king at their temple. He was beloved by them.

The need for baptism is made very clear before this as well as after. I hope you had the chance to read 2 Nephi on your way to Mosiah. Just a few chapters earlier, there is this powerful and beautiful reference.

Cheers.

2 NEPHI 31:

11 And the Father said: Repent ye, repent ye, and be baptized in the name of my Beloved Son.

12 And also, the voice of the Son came unto me, saying: He that is baptized in my name, to him will the Father give the Holy Ghost, like unto me; wherefore, follow me, and do the things which ye have seen me do.

13 Wherefore, my beloved brethren, I know that if ye shall follow the Son, with full purpose of heart, acting no hypocrisy and no deception before God, but with real intent, repenting of your sins, witnessing unto the Father that ye are dwilling to take upon you the name of Christ, by baptismâ??yea, by following your Lord and your Savior down into the water, according to his word, behold, then shall ye receive the Holy Ghost; yea, then cometh the baptism of fire and of the Holy Ghost; and then can ye speak with the tongue of angels, and shout praises unto the Holy One of Israel.

14 But, behold, my beloved brethren, thus came the voice of the Son unto me, saying: After ye have repented of your sins, and witnessed unto the Father that ye are willing to keep my commandments, by the baptism of water, and have received the baptism of fire and of the Holy Ghost, and can speak with a new tongue, yea, even with the tongue of angels, and after this should deny me, it would have been bbetter for you that ye had not known me.

15 And I heard a voice from the Father, saying: Yea, the words of my Beloved are true and faithful. He that endureth to the end, the same shall be saved.

16 And now, my beloved brethren, I know by this that unless a man shall endure to the end, in following the example of the Son of the living God, he cannot be saved.

17 Wherefore, do the things which I have told you I have seen that your Lord and your Redeemer should do; for, for this cause have they been shown unto me, that ye might know the gate by which ye should enter. For the gate by which ye should enter is repentance and baptism by water; and then cometh a remission of your sins by fire and by the Holy Ghost.

18 And then are ye in this strait and narrow path which leads to eternal life; yea, ye have entered in by the gate; ye have done according to the commandments of the Father and the Son; and ye have received the Holy Ghost, which witnesses of the Father and the Son, unto the fulfilling of the promise which he hath made, that if ye entered in by the way ye should receive.

19 And now, my beloved brethren, after ye have gotten into this strait and narrow path, I would ask if all is done? Behold, I say unto you, Nay; for ye have not come thus far save it were by the word of Christ with unshaken faith in him, drelying wholly upon the merits of him who is mighty to save.

20 Wherefore, ye must press forward with a steadfastness in Christ, having a perfect brightness of hope, and a love of God and of all men. Wherefore, if ye shall press forward, feasting upon the word of Christ, and endure to the end, behold, thus saith the Father: Ye shall have eternal life.

21 And now, behold, my beloved brethren, this is the way; and there is none other way nor name given under heaven whereby man can be saved in the kingdom of God. And now, behold, this is the ddoctrine of Christ, and the only and true doctrine of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost, which is one God, without end. Amen.

[Cold Steel]

There's been a great deal written about this particular discourse being wholly consistent with the Jewish Feast of the Tabernacles. Kevin Christensen notes Hugh Nibley demonstrated that King Benjaminâ??s discourse was a coronation rite, following a thirty-six element pattern. John Welch summarizes these as:

â?¦ the proclamation, transfer of kingship, assembly around the temple, taking a census, bringing firstlings and offerings, giving thanks for deliverance, dwelling in tents around the temple, the king speaking from a tower, the call or

silentium

and teaching of the mysteries, hailing the king, homage by the people to the king (which Benjamin rejects), cleansing from sin, acclaiming the king, recounting the story of creation, the king's ritual farewell and descent into the underworld (which Benjamin refers to as a literal event soon to occur), choirs, ensuring succession to the throne, promises of peace and prosperity, the preservation of records, God preserving his people, promises of never-ending happiness, divination of the future, a day of judgment, falling to the ground before the king, seeing all men as equals, the closing acclamation, making of a covenant, receipt of a new name, begetting of the human race, concern about standing in the proper place, having a seal, recording names in a register, appointing priests to remind people of their covenant, and dismissal.

I find it encouraging that you're picking up on these nuggets. How Joseph Smith managed to put these things together in two months would have been an incredible feat. As Christensen notes, John Tvedtnes compared it with the ancient Feast of the Tabernacles, and showed that the Benjaminâ??s speech qualifies. And Welch examined the literary structure, and not only found his first example of chiasmus in King Benjaminâ??s discourse, but found that the whole discourse is chiastically structured. These constructions are characteristically used when intended for public consumption. Welch and another BYU instructor determined that Benjaminâ??s discourse seems also to be a Day of Atonement, a Sabbath Year, and a Jubilee Year because of its content. Their research also noted, according to Christensen, that "later Jewish tradition seems to have the priest utter [the Lord's] name ten times during the Yom Kippur liturgy, and to a similar degree, Benjamin employs the expanded names Lord God and Lord Omnipotent seven and three times, respectively."

Christensen says this remarkable discourse is additionally significant in its view of the cosmos:

The most obvious aspect of the temple in Jerusalem involved the levels of sacredness, increasing from the inner court to the holy place and to the holy of holies. According to Mircea Eliade, the three parts of the temple at Jerusalem correspond to the three cosmic regions. The lower court represents the lower regions ("Sheol," the abode of the dead), the holy place represents the earth, and the holy of holies represents heaven. The temple is always the meeting point of heaven, earth, and the world of the dead.

Lehi's cosmology saw the world in these three realms (heaven, 1 Nephi 1:8; the earth, 1 Nephi 1:14; and the realm of the dead, 2 Nephi 1:14). King Benjamin, speaking from his temple, also sees the cosmos in terms of heaven, the earth, and the realm of the dead (Mosiah 2:25, 26, 41), with entrance into God's presence as the ultimate joyous state (Mosiah 2:41).

BTW, the Maya also have a three-tiered structure of the cosmos. To them, the underground caves represented the realm of the dead and were sacred entrances into the realm of the dead. Many caves in Mesoamerica have been discovered with distinctive signs of worship.

See also this site for more on this discourse.

[Sevenbak]

Cold Steel, excellent, thanks!!

[Mudcat]

Faith is the first principle of the Gospel and the 'Milk of the Milk'.

From what I can gather, this is the only principle King Benjamin and his people seem to believe is necessary for salvation.

Mosiah 5

7 And now, because of the covenant which ye have made ye shall be called the children of Christ, his sons, and his daughters; for behold, this day he hath spiritually begotten you; for ye say that your hearts are changed through faith on his name; therefore, ye are born of him and have become his sons and his daughters.

Baptism is the next step. Keep reading. I beleive the next major discourse in the book speaks of the 'waters of Mormon' and baptism.

Mosiah 18

5 Now, there was in Mormon a fountain of pure water, and Alma resorted thither, there being near the water a thicket of small trees, where he did hide himself in the daytime from the searches of the king.

http://scriptures.lds.org/en/mosiah/18/5,8,16,30#5

This next step doesn't refer to King Benjamin's people, its a record of a different set of folks, so I don't see the application as it applies the people of King Benjamin.

We don't see any reference to baptism that would seem to impact these people for 25 or so years from King Benjamin's speech, after Mosiah receives Alma and authorizes him to set up the Church.

Thanks for your thoughts.

Mudcat

[Mudcat]

The people of Zerahemla were already baptized. Benjamin's father, Mosiah I, was instrumental in that. Benjamin himself continued the process (and the church that they headed).

Their previous baptisms were in effect. Baptism remits sins, past and future; it "doth now also save us", and it need not be repeated when one renews his covenants.

Lehi

Hey Lehi,

I don't remember reading anything that would indicate these folks were baptized prior to this. Do you have a specific passage in mind.

Emphasis Mine. You may think baptism remits sins, but I don't see anywhere in King Benjamin's speech to indicate he agrees with you. From what I gather, he believed they

remission was received by faith in Christ. There is no mention of baptism.

Mosiah 4

3 And it came to pass that after they had spoken these words the Spirit of the Lord came upon them, and they were filled with joy, having received a remission of their sins, and having peace of conscience, because of the exceeding faith which they had in Jesus Christ who should come, according to the words which king Benjamin had spoken unto them.

Mudcat

[charity's child]

Mosiah 5:5 And we are willing to enter into a covenant with our God to do his will, and to be obedient to his commandments in all things that he shall command us, all the remainder of our days, that we may not bring upon ourselves a never-ending torment, as has been spoken by the angel, that we may not drink out of the cup of the wrath of God.

I believe the covenant referenced here would be sealed by baptism. It fits with the mentions of baptism at other times in the scriptures. As in:

Mosiah 18:7 And it came to pass *after many days there were a goodly number gathered together at the place of Mormon, to hear the words of Alma. Yea, all were gathered together that believed on his word, to hear him. And he did teach them, and did preach unto them repentance, and redemption, and faith on the Lord.

8 And it came to pass that he said unto them: Behold, here are the waters of Mormon (for thus were they called) and now, as ye are desirous to come into the fold of God, and to be called his people, and are willing to bear one anotherâ??s burdens, that they may be light;

9 Yea, and are willing to mourn with those that mourn; yea, and comfort those that stand in need of comfort, and to stand as witnesses of God at all times and in all things, and in all places that ye may be in, even until death, that ye may be redeemed of God, and be numbered with those of the first resurrection, that ye may have eternal lifeâ??

10 Now I say unto you, if this be the desire of your hearts, what have you against being baptized in the name of the Lord, as a witness before him that ye have entered into a covenant with him, that ye will serve him and keep his commandments, that he may pour out his Spirit more abundantly upon you?

Regularly when a people desire to become God's people, to be called by his name, to serve him, they make a covenant and are baptized.

Alma 7:15 Yea, I say unto you come and fear not, and lay aside every sin, which easily doth beset you, which doth bind you down to destruction, yea, come and go forth, and show unto your God that ye are willing to repent of your sins and enter into a covenant with him to keep his commandments, and witness it unto him this day by going into the waters of baptism.

Therefore, my personal opinion is that it was a given. We don't mention the things we all know because we all know them. With Benjamin and his people, there was no need to mention baptism.

[Mudcat]

I'm not surprised you agree. It's one of the most powerful sermons ever given, past or present. Would that we all would listen!

The people of King Benjamin already had the ordinance of baptism, and they were gathered at the temple, each family tent with the door towered the temple. This was a people who already had the gospel. This was a people whom accepted King Benjamin's word with one voice, and one accord, who fell down and worshiped the future Christ. This was a people who were given a new name by their prophet and king at their temple. He was beloved by them.

The need for baptism is made very clear before this as well as after. I hope you had the chance to read 2 Nephi on your way to Mosiah. Just a few chapters earlier, there is this powerful and beautiful reference.

Cheers.

Hey 7bak,

I did happen to read 2 Nephi. I will note that even though only a few chapters seperate the passages... it seems 400 years had passed as well. I am not saying that baptism had been forgotten in that time frame.... but it sure does sound that way.

If they had the Gospel of Christ, then there doesn't seem to be any evidence to support a prior covenant to Christ. This sounds more like presentation of the Gospel, the peoples response of repentance and the remission of their sins by faith.

Mosiah 4

3 And it came to pass that after they had spoken these words the Spirit of the Lord came upon them, and they were filled with joy, having received a remission of their sins, and having peace of conscience, because of the exceeding faith which they had in Jesus Christ who should come, according to the words which king Benjamin had spoken unto them.

Mosiah 5

7 And now, because of the covenant which ye have made ye shall be called the children of Christ, his sons, and his daughters; for behold, this day he hath spiritually begotten you; for ye say that your hearts are changed through faith on his name; therefore, ye are born of him and have become his sons and his daughters.

Why did an angel have to reveal Christ to Benjamin. It was in the records, this perplexes me.

I'm not trying to be difficult here, I just haven't drawn the same conclusion you have, so far.

Respectfully,

Mudcat

[charity's child]

Why did an angel have to reveal Christ to Benjamin. It was in the records, this perplexes me.

It seems evident to me that Benjamin knew of Christ, had studied the scriptures, had lived the gospel to the best of his ability, but had been praying, perhaps for greater understanding. And what he received was a greater understanding.

If someone had spent his entire life studying the account of Christ in Jerusalem, and had learned all he could from the written words, would he not still want to know more? If an angel appeared to him it would not be to teach him what he could learn from the scriptures he already had, but to either give him the reward or seeing what he had already believed or to teach him new things that had not been written. Either way, it would be built upon existing testimony.

[Zakuska]

From what I can gather, this is the only principle King Benjamin and his people seem to believe is necessary for salvation.

This next step doesn't refer to King Benjamin's people, its a record of a different set of folks, so I don't see the application as it applies the people of King Benjamin.

We don't see any reference to baptism that would seem to impact these people for 25 or so years from King Benjamin's speech, after Mosiah receives Alma and authorizes him to set up the Church.

Thanks for your thoughts.

Mudcat

Im looking at the over all structure of how the narative of the book of Mosiah was layed out.

Heres another step....

Mosiah 26: 11, 22, 30-32, 35-36

30 Yea, and as often as my people repent will I forgive them their trespasses against me.

http://scriptures.lds.org/en/mosiah/26/11,22,30-32,35-36#11

[Mudcat]

There's been a great deal written about this particular discourse being wholly consistent with the Jewish Feast of the Tabernacles. Kevin Christensen notes Hugh Nibley demonstrated that King Benjaminâ??s discourse was a coronation rite, following a thirty-six element pattern. John Welch summarizes these as:

Greetings Cold Steel,

Thanks for the links. Hopefully, I will get some time to do more than skim over them, before the weekend it out.

I find it encouraging that you're picking up on these nuggets. How Joseph Smith managed to put these things together in two months would have been an incredible feat. As Christensen notes, John Tvedtnes compared it with the ancient Feast of the Tabernacles, and showed that the Benjaminâ??s speech qualifies. And Welch examined the literary structure, and not only found his first example of chiasmus in King Benjaminâ??s discourse, but found that the whole discourse is chiastically structured. These constructions are characteristically used when intended for public consumption. Welch and another BYU instructor determined that Benjaminâ??s discourse seems also to be a Day of Atonement, a Sabbath Year, and a Jubilee Year because of its content. Their research also noted, according to Christensen, that "later Jewish tradition seems to have the priest utter [the Lord's] name ten times during the Yom Kippur liturgy, and to a similar degree, Benjamin employs the expanded names Lord God and Lord Omnipotent seven and three times, respectively."

I suppose different things are coming to the fore, as I read it this time. There have been oddities I have run across, like the mention of machines, steel, etc... but I have heard the apologetic responses to those and am satisfied moving past them. However, there things like this thread, I have brought up. They stick out to me as something worth talking about, partly I suppose because I haven't heard them discussed much before.

I agree, that this is something that JS couldn't have put together in two months and simply the style of Mosiah is so foreign in contrast with 1 Nephi for example, that I don't find the argument for singular authorship supportive.

Respectfully,

Mudcat

[Mudcat]

I believe the covenant referenced here would be sealed by baptism. It fits with the mentions of baptism at other times in the scriptures. As in:

Regularly when a people desire to become God's people, to be called by his name, to serve him, they make a covenant and are baptized.

Therefore, my personal opinion is that it was a given. We don't mention the things we all know because we all know them. With Benjamin and his people, there was no need to mention baptism.

It seems evident to me that Benjamin knew of Christ, had studied the scriptures, had lived the gospel to the best of his ability, but had been praying, perhaps for greater understanding. And what he received was a greater understanding.

If someone had spent his entire life studying the account of Christ in Jerusalem, and had learned all he could from the written words, would he not still want to know more? If an angel appeared to him it would not be to teach him what he could learn from the scriptures he already had, but to either give him the reward or seeing what he had already believed or to teach him new things that had not been written. Either way, it would be built upon existing testimony.

Hi CC,

Thanks for you thoughts. The argument from silence that you submit is most likely the best evidence to support such a position. I don't necessarily agree with your deductive support for the case, but I can respect your position on it.

Your Bud Mud

[Honorentheos]

It's an interesting question, Mudcat. The nature of baptism as it relates to the Jewish faith, the baptism of John as the scriptures called it, and the act of baptism in simulation of the resurrection of Christ as a covenant are topics that are not often discussed.

My understanding has been that Jewish baptism has been different than Christian baptism in that it historically was not a true 'baptism' per ce, but rather a ritual cleansing, understood to be physical but also symbolic of the cleansing performed through the Holy One of Israel.

The BoM peoples seem to have a more Christian view of baptism - one performed not a priestly ordinance, but one done in the name of Christ as shown in the 2 Nephi passages cited. Is this an anachronism or evidence of a restored truth to a more prepared people? Ones view of this will likely vary.

But still, at the time of King Benjamin, it is likely that the Jews also did not have congregation-wide baptisms so the Nephit's may not have either if they were of Jewish-theological decent. (Trying to think this through from the inside, not suggesting this is my own personal beliefs).

What's interesting is that Alma, an ordained if corrupt priest, feels the need to be baptized as well as baptize at the time of his "conversion" from the Court of King Noah. Is this an example of a similar practice being instituted as was done by John the Baptist? In other words, a second type of baptism? One if preparation for the Messiah? If so, why the more traditional wording of the 2 Nephi passages?

And if baptism is a given, why does Christ teach it in 3 Nephi to those saved from the destruction? Is it here that the real baptism is finally taught, as it was in the old world?

I found the portions of Rough Stone Rolling interesting where it talks about the chronology of the "translation" of the BoM. In the process of translation, the Mosiah chapters you just read were some of the first put to paper that remain from the loss of the 116 pages, while the 2 Nephi passages were some of the last as I recall.

Is it possible that the narrative thread of the BoM actually begins with Mosiah and more or less ends with Nephi's final discourses? Believers won't see it this way, but it is an interesting possibility given the progressing of the theology that one sees using this chronology.

Anyway, as always, happy reading!

[consiglieri]

I read the speech by King Benjamin in the BoM. I suppose many of you will be unsurprised to find that I came to a great agreement with his words. I find it quite remarkable that his people were saved by faith and there wasn't the first mention of baptism in the text.

This is a wonderful question you raise, Mudcat!

The first comment I have is that this is one of those things that make the Book of Mormon look (to me) like an authentic record, as opposed to just being a manual of teachings Joseph Smith was coming up with for his soon-to-be established church. In real discourses delivered by different people over a long period of time, we are going to see different ways of viewing and expressing things; with omissions of certain aspects in one place and inclusions in another; and even some contradictions; just as I see in the Bible.

The second thing I would point out is that this is one of the really wonderful stories in the Book of Mormon. We have numerous stories of bad people repenting and being born again, such as Alma the Younger, King Lamoni, King Lamoni's father, etc.

But the people of King Benjamin were known for how strictly they obeyed the commandments. (Mosiah 1:11)

(In this regard, I think it plausible that they had been previously baptized.)

But the important point of the story, a point I emphasized earlier this year in my gospel doctrine class, was that even these wonderful people who strictly obeyed the commandments were still missing something; and not just a little thing, but the most important thing of all; to be born again through calling upon the name of Jesus for mercy.

This story speaks to me with the message that it doesn't make any difference how good or how righteous we are; or how strictly we obey all the commandments of God. That doesn't cut it. It doesn't even begin to cut it.

Without being born again of the Spirit and becoming sons and daughters of God, no degree of personal righteousness amounts to a hill of beans.

To me, that is the most important message of the story of King Benjamin's people.

Trumpets sound and angels sing!

Listen what they say.

And man will live forevermore

Because of Christmas Day!

All the Best!

--Consiglieri