Do We Take Our Personalities With Us To Spirit Prison?

[Glenn101]

Alma 34:34 has, indeed, become the LDS proof-text for the idea that we are the same personalities both before and after the resurrection. As John Tvetdness pointed out some years ago, however, this interpretation is almost surely in error; as reading the passage in context reveals that the "spirit" being referred to is either the "Spirit of God" or the "spirit of the devil," and what Amulek means is that at the point of death, whichever one of those two spirits possesses our body will have power to possess it in that eternal world.

Also, as to what our bodies will look like in the resurrection; I believe we have only one example of a person being resurrected and then appearing to those who knew him in mortality, which is Jesus Christ. It seems that in every instance where the resurrected Jesus appeared to his disciples, they did not recognize him by sight, leading to the conclusion that he looked quite differently.

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

Consiglieri,

If this passage is only talking about those who procrastinate their repentance until the end, I agree that such is the probable reading. Those who do so have already heard the gospel, else they would not have had the opportunity to procrastinate. They become subject to the devil and evidently lose the opportunity to repent and are left only with the opportunity to regret. But satan's spirit does not possess our bodies. It is our own spirit that has possession, whether it choses to follow Satan or the Lord.

Glenn

[consiglieri]

But satan's spirit does not possess our bodies.

Don't tell me.

Tell Amulek.

[jkfrost]

Alma 34:34 has, indeed, become the LDS proof-text for the idea that we are the same personalities both before and after the resurrection. As John Tvetdness pointed out some years ago, however, this interpretation is almost surely in error; as reading the passage in context reveals that the "spirit" being referred to is either the "Spirit of God" or the "spirit of the devil," and what Amulek means is that at the point of death, whichever one of those two spirits possesses our body will have power to possess it in that eternal world.

Also, as to what our bodies will look like in the resurrection; I believe we have only one example of a person being resurrected and then appearing to those who knew him in mortality, which is Jesus Christ. It seems that in every instance where the resurrected Jesus appeared to his disciples, they did not recognize him by sight, leading to the conclusion that he looked quite differently.

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

Good point - I will chew on this - my understanding is that our personality often comes from what Spirit we choose to obey.

[OMWO2]

First is that just because a person hears the discussions doesn't mean that they have had the Spirit witness to them that the gospel as taught by the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is true. Thus, they would need to have that witness before they would be held accountable for their choice.

So if the spirit witnesses something why would anyone reject? Are you saying some could reject even if the spirit witnesses? Could someone accept it without the spirit witnessing? This reminds me of the quote "the beatiungs will continue until moral improves".

Second, they may have 'rejected' the Church in this life for various reasons that may not be in effect in the spirit world - concern for temporal well-being of their family overriding their spiritual needs. I'm guessing that when a person dies - especially if he didn't think there was an after-life, he'd have some rethinking to do, even if they don't accept the missionaries there.

I guess it seems to me that those who die and then learn that there is an afterlife have an unfair advantage over someone who rejects the gospel while alive? Doesn't make sense to me!

So, I think that only Heavenly Father and Christ knows when a person will reject the message 'for the last time'. I know many people who had the discussions several times before they joined the Church. It's a good thing that our missionaries on this side of the veil didn't say "Oh, you've met missionaries before and turned them down? Well, in that case ... see ya!!"

And. last of all, we've been commanded to do the work for the dead. If they accept fine. If they don't, fine. And if your father believes that his parents finally accepted, what's wrong with that?

There is nothing wrong with my father having that hope. I didn't mean to imply that it is bad. I was only using his experience as an example of my question.

[OMWO2]

Just to add to what has already been said, spirit prison/ paradise is set up for the purpose of conversing and learning the gospel. In fact, most of the missionary work success will come in the afterlife mostly due to the fact that most mortal individuals either do not hear the gospel or if they do hear it they do not understand it's eternal and factual impact on their soul.

Personally i believe that almost everyone who hears the gospel in the afterlife will accept it with a whole heart. Satan is very busy here on earth confusing mankind that it makes it very hard to discern what is right to do. I do not believe that old standing notion of our mortal lives being the "final test" for the rest of eternity. If it were the case, the gospel and the rules to the game would be spelled out a lot clearer and everyone would have a perfect opportunity to accept the gospel and all of it's principles andordinances before death. Mortality to me is more just about gaining a physical bodyt and learning how to use it and bridal passions. Accepting the gospel whole-heartedly will not even happen for most mormons until after death anyway.

So why would the "conversion rate" be higher in the afterlife? Your comment supports my parents hope, but I am interested in the LDS doctrine supporting this assumption. Seems to me that this implies that individuals have additional insight which means that we mortals have a disadvantage? Or am I misunderstanding / mischaraterizing this?

[Glenn101]

So why would the "conversion rate" be higher in the afterlife? Your comment supports my parents hope, but I am interested in the LDS doctrine supporting this assumption. Seems to me that this implies that individuals have additional insight which means that we mortals have a disadvantage? Or am I misunderstanding / mischaraterizing this?

That is something that we just do not know. We can hope, believe, disbelieve, or whatever, but we just do not know how those in the afterlife will be towards accepting the gospel. We do not know how the spirit prison is organized and managed. We are left to guess and speculate.

What I do really expect is that there will be a lot of confused and nervous spirits in that prison because nothing be anything like they had been led to expect.

Glenn

[TJane]

So if the spirit witnesses something why would anyone reject? Are you saying some could reject even if the spirit witnesses? Could someone accept it without the spirit witnessing?

I know there are people who have joined the church, not because they have felt the Spirit tell them that it is true, but because they like the social 'family' atmosphere, or because their member family is pushing it or because they think it is good for their kids to go to a church.

It's also true that people can still reject the church after the Spirt witnesses to them the truth of it. That's how we get Sons of Perdition. After all, Satan rejected the plan in Heavenly Father's face. There have and will be others. I can't explain why some would reject the Church after having such a powerful witness, but some do.

I guess it seems to me that those who die and then learn that there is an afterlife have an unfair advantage over someone who rejects the gospel while alive? Doesn't make sense to me!

I don't see it that way. I don't see knowing there's an afterlife as the key issue in accepting or rejecting religion.

I've met a few LDS members who are fully active in church, the whole nine yards, not because they believe it to be true but because of the advantages of the lifestyle. I know others who don't believe in any religion or afterlife that live more Christian lives than some religious people.

I think the people, religious or not, who live lives that try to help others and make the world a better place will have the advantage over those who don't.

There is nothing wrong with my father having that hope. I didn't mean to imply that it is bad. I was only using his experience as an example of my question.

Oh. OK. I misread your comments.

Jane

[Rob Osborn]

So why would the "conversion rate" be higher in the afterlife? Your comment supports my parents hope, but I am interested in the LDS doctrine supporting this assumption. Seems to me that this implies that individuals have additional insight which means that we mortals have a disadvantage? Or am I misunderstanding / mischaraterizing this?

The LDS doctrine is that the spirits in prison are just that- "prisoners". Being thus prisoners, they are in some degree of "torment" because of their sins and wickedness. They are separated from that which is "peaceful" and good. This is for the purpose's of God to save all that can and will repent in order to escape the torments of hell. It is interesting to see just what torment can do to a person to get them to change. Alma and the sons of Mosiah in the Book of Mormon all experienced this "never-ending torment" and they turned a drastic 180 in fear that they would be delivered eternally over unto this torment. It is kind of a carrot in front of the donkey approach, but it works! Fear and torment are very persuasive and real powers.

This is why I believe most will accept when they are in spirit prison or paradise. They will have a greater knowledge and a sure justification of their choices and where it truly leads. It is a true fact that sin and disobedience is not happiness. It all comes down to whether or not people want to be happy or not in eternity. If they seek peace and happiness, they must accept the gospel because outside of that acceptance there is none to deliver from the night of never-ending darkness- that eternal hell awaiting the disobedient.

I wouldn't call mortality a disadvantage when we properly understand "why" we are here under the conditions we have. Us not knowing for sure about anything spiritually actually helps our cause of learning what sin is without rebelling totally to God. I like to think that God always gives us the best advantage for every condition of our growth. How could we possibly grow into perfect beings if we were sinning under and with a full knowledge of Godliness? It would make us feel as if we truly were committing the most blasphemous of deeds in the presence of the almighty. It would be like directly rejecting God himself! Instead we lose memory of that when we come here for our benefit, so that when we do sin, we do not fully understand at once and feel like as if all is lost. Instead when we do sin we find it easier to repent in "faith and hope" rather than in direct knowledge of that disobedience. When we die, we come to a greater understanding of what our life choices bring- happiness or torment. In the spirit world it is more vivid for the purpose of us growing and becoming perfect.

Hell itself is prepared for the wicked not merely as a form of punishment but as a system of reformation- a place where people can suffer and repent for their sins. It would be impossible for a person to repent of their sins if they were delivered over unto peace at death.

It really all comes down to the whether a person wants saved from the torment of their sins in eternity. Most will be thus saved while few will not refusing to repent-

23 Therefore, blessed are they who will repent and hearken unto the voice of the Lord their God; for these are they that shall be saved.

24 And may God grant, in his great fulness, that men might be brought unto repentance and good works, that they might be restored unto grace for grace, according to their works.

25 And I would that all men might be saved. But we read that in the great and last day there are some who shall be cast out, yea, who shall be cast off from the presence of the Lord;

26 Yea, who shall be consigned to a state of endless misery, fulfilling the words which say: They that have done good shall have everlasting life; and they that have done evil shall have everlasting damnation. And thus it is. Amen.

(Book of Mormon | Helaman 12:23 - 26)

[Glenn101]

Good point - I will chew on this - my understanding is that our personality often comes from what Spirit we choose to obey.

Maybe our personality determines which spirit we choose to obey.

Glenn

[Glenn101]

But satan's spirit does not possess our bodies.

Don't tell me.

Tell Amulek.

Was Amulek speaking only figuratively? This passage and context can, and I think do, have two layers of meaning, neither of which is mutually exclusive. I'm not going to be dogmatic about my dogma.

Glenn

[consiglieri]

Was Amulek speaking only figuratively? This passage and context can, and I think do, have two layers of meaning, neither of which is mutually exclusive. I'm not going to be dogmatic about my dogma.

Glenn

I think it is all to the good to be open to new meanings in scripture, and the new meanings do not necessarily make the old meanings incorrect.

But the example of Alma 34:34 is one that I am convinced has historically been completely misread by Mormons in a way that renders it meaningless, as well as at variance with the entirety of the context.

At no point in Alma 32-34 (the entire context of the joint Alma-Amulek sermon) is mentioned the personal spirit inhabiting the body.

Only two spirits are mentioned; the Spirit of God and the spirit of the devil, and both are mentioned in the verse immediately after Alma 34:34. Here are both verses:

34 Ye cannot say, when ye are brought to that awful crisis, that I will repent, that I will return to my God. Nay, ye cannot say this; for that same spirit which doth possess your bodies at the time that ye go out of this life, that same spirit will have power to possess your body in that eternal world.

35 For behold, if ye have procrastinated the day of your repentance even until death, behold, ye have become subjected to the spirit of the devil, and he doth seal you his; therefore, the Spirit of the Lord hath withdrawn from you, and hath no place in you, and the devil hath all power over you; and this is the final state of the wicked.

Unless we come to this scripture with the preconception that it is talking about our personal spirits, there is no way to read it in such a way as to come to that conclusion.

It seems clear that Amulek did not have our personal spirits in mind, but was talking about the Spirit of the Lord or the spirit of the devil.

I will add that I think Mormons are averse to the plain meaning of the text for two reasons: (1) We do not like to think of being possessed by the spirit of the devil in the first place (it sounds so "Exorcist"!); and, (2) We don't like the idea that if the spirit of the devil possesses our bodies at the time we die, the spirit of the devil will have power to possess our bodies in that eternal world. This concept seems so foreign to "Mormon Doctrine." And yet, there it is plainly set forth in the Book of Mormon.

I think I will have to add this to my list of things taught in the Book of Mormon that Mormons don't generally believe.

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

[jkfrost]

Maybe our personality determines which spirit we choose to obey.

Glenn

Perhaps it is a little of both - we often carry with us some of the traits of friends we hang around with.

IMO - eons of personality is found in a newborn babe.

Abraham 3:19 And the Lord said unto me: These two facts do exist, that there are two spirits,

one being more intelligent than the other; there shall be another more intelligent than they;

I am the Lord thy God, I am more intelligent than they all.

21 I dwell in the midst of them all; I now, therefore, have come down unto thee to declare unto thee

the works which my hands have made, wherein my wisdom excelleth them all,

for I rule in the heavens above, and in the earth beneath, in all wisdom and prudence,

over all the intelligences thine eyes have seen from the beginning; I came down in the beginning

in the midst of all the intelligences thou hast seen.

22 Now the Lord had shown unto me, Abraham, the intelligences that were organized before the world was;

and among all these there were many of the noble and great ones;

23 And God saw these souls that they were good, and he stood in the midst of them, and he said:

These I will make my rulers; for he stood among those that were spirits,

and he saw that they were good; and he said unto me: Abraham, thou art one of them;

thou wast chosen before thou wast born.

24 And there stood one among them that was like unto God, and he said unto those who were with him:

We will go down, for there is space there, and we will take of these materials,

and we will make an earth whereon these may dwell;

25 And we will prove them herewith, to see if they will do all things whatsoever

the Lord their God shall command them;

How much do we bring with us - and how much will we remember when we return?

[zerinus]

Also, as to what our bodies will look like in the resurrection; I believe we have only one example of a person being resurrected and then appearing to those who knew him in mortality, which is Jesus Christ. It seems that in every instance where the resurrected Jesus appeared to his disciples, they did not recognize him by sight, leading to the conclusion that he looked quite differently.

Where does it say they didn't recognize Him?

zerinus

[consiglieri]

Where does it say they didn't recognize Him?

zerinus

Mary didn't recognize him at the tomb.

Cleopas and Luke didn't recognize him on the road to Emmaus.

Peter didn't recognize him on the shore.

The apostles didn't recognize him in the upper room.

I think I see a pattern developing . . .

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

[zerinus]

Mary didn't recognize him at the tomb.

John 20

:

14 And when she had thus said, she turned herself back, and saw Jesus standing, and knew not that it was Jesus.

15 Jesus saith unto her, Woman, why weepest thou? whom seekest thou? She, supposing him to be the gardener, saith unto him, Sir, if thou have borne him hence, tell me where thou hast laid him, and I will take him away.

16 Jesus saith unto her, Mary. She turned herself, and saith unto him, Rabboni; which is to say, Master.

I donâ??t see that here. Mary was weeping and grieving. She was not expecting Him to be alive. But when Jesus spoke to her so as to draw attention to Himself, she recognized Him. There is nothing there to imply that He looked different than before.

Cleopas and Luke didn't recognize him on the road to Emmaus.

Luke 24

:

15 And it came to pass, that, while they communed together and reasoned, Jesus himself drew near, and went with them.

16 But

their eyes were holden that they

should not

know him

.

That means that their inability not to recognize Him was intentionally caused. They did not recognize Him because God did not want them to recognize Him; not because His appearance was different. They were able to recognize Him when it was Godâ??s will to recognize Him:

30 And it came to pass, as he sat at meat with them, he took bread, and blessed it, and brake, and gave to them.

31 And

their eyes were opened

, and they knew him;

and he vanished out of their sight.

Peter didn't recognize him on the shore.

John 21

:

6 And he said unto them, Cast the net on the right side of the ship, and ye shall find. They cast therefore, and now they were not able to draw it for the multitude of fishes.

7 Therefore that disciple whom Jesus loved saith unto Peter, It is the Lord. Now when Simon Peter heard that it was the Lord, he girt his fisher's coat unto him, (for he was naked,) and did cast himself into the sea.

8 And the other disciples came in a little ship; (for they were not far from land, but as it were two hundred cubits,) dragging the net with fishes.

On that occasion Jesus was on the shore, and Peter and the other disciples were in a boat, a distance away out into the sea. (Two hundred cubits is about 300 feet; more so according to other estimates.) They were too far to be able to immediately recognize Him. But John did recognize Him. Why do you focus on Peter, who did not recognize Him; and not on John, who did recognize Him?

The apostles didn't recognize him in the upper room.

They did recognize Him:

Luke 24

:

36 And as they thus spake, Jesus himself stood in the midst of them, and saith unto them, Peace be unto you.

37 But they were terrified and affrighted, and supposed that they had seen a spirit.

38 And he said unto them, Why are ye troubled? and why do thoughts arise in your hearts?

39 Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.

40 And when he had thus spoken, he shewed them his hands and his feet.

41 And while they yet believed not for joy, and wondered, he said unto them, Have ye here any meat?

42 And they gave him a piece of a broiled fish, and of an honeycomb.

43 And he took it, and did eat before them.

They just couldnâ??t believe their eyes that He was still alive!

I think I see a pattern developing . . .

I donâ??t!

zerinus

[consiglieri]

You seem to have an answer for everything, zerinus.

Sometimes the simplest answer is the one that doesn't require such mental gymnastics to explain away.

Sort of like your other attempt to explain away that pesky verse in Moses 5.

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

[zerinus]

You seem to have an answer for everything, zerinus.

Sometimes the simplest answer is the one that doesn't require such mental gymnastics to explain away.

Sort of like your other attempt to explain away that pesky verse in Moses 5.

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

From where I am looking at it, it seems to me that I am finding the "simple answers;" and you are performing the "mental gymnastics".

zerinus

[consiglieri]

From where I am looking at it, it seems to me that I am finding the "simple answers;" and you are performing the "mental gymnastics".

zerinus

Funny how a change in perspective will do that.

But really, in the four different accounts of post-resurrection appearances of Jesus in the New Testament to people who knew him in mortality, where none of them recognize him right off, how can the "simple answer" be that Jesus looked the same?

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

[zerinus]

Funny how a change in perspective will do that.

But really, in the four different accounts of post-resurrection appearances of Jesus in the New Testament to people who knew him in mortality, where none of them recognize him right off, how can the "simple answer" be that Jesus looked the same?

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

The "simple answer" is found in the contexts of each of the passages in question, which you are completely ignoring. What you are doing is not "finding the simple answer". It is "oversimplification to the point of distortion".

zerinus

[Brian's Mom]

Thanks to all of you who replied.

I think I have more information than ever, and I love that! I'll have more to discuss when the subject comes up again, (which means when I bring it up again!)

Again, thank you all.

Brian's Mom