Mormon Or 13 Jaguar: What Is Was Your Name Dude?

[Olavarria]

I think its possible that many of the people we see in the Book of Mormon didn't, in life, have the names the book attributes to them. My belief that this might explain some of the names in the BoM comes from the fact that many BoM names are identical to hebrew and egyptian names that mean the things their holders are decribed as. Also, many BoM peoples do the same things their biblical or Jaredite name sakes do.

I found this paper on the FARMS webpage and thought it was interesting. "In a few words, my hypothesis is that in order to facilitate editorial condensation of the Nephite records,14 a process of metonymic naming was used by Mormon, Moroni, or others, wherein symbolically or historically "loaded" names may have been substituted for the actual personal names of given individuals. Metonymy or metonymic naming involves "naming by association," a metaphoric process of linking two concepts or persons together in such a way as to tell us more about the latter by means of what we already know about the former. For example, to call a potential scandal a "Watergate" is to suggest volumes in a single word. Similarly, if we call an individual a Judas or a Quisling, rather than giving his or her proper name, we can in one word convey an immense amount of information about how we at least feel toward that person. Names which are specific to particular castes in India have a metonymic function, linking the individual clearly to the role they are to perform in this life. In this case, these are names which the person actually bears in real life. Other names are assigned after-the-fact."http://mi.byu.edu/publications/jbms/?vol=3...&cat_id=531

NephiNephi is an attested Syro-Palestinian Semitic form of an attested Egyptian man's name dating from the Late Period in Egypt. It means "good, beutiful"http://www.farmsresearch.com/publications/...num=1&id=12

Mormon 6:17â??19

3 Nephi 2:16

4 Nephi 1:10

"The phrase fair and delightsome stands in stark contrast to descriptions such as "filthy" and "loathsome," as the Lamanites are often described during periods of degeneracy and unbelief (compare 1 Nephi 12:23; 2 Nephi 5:22; Mormon 5:15). It must be noted that Book of Mormon prophets invariably taught that being "fair and delightsome" has everything to do with righteous living and very little to do with perceived cultural or racial superiority (see 1 Nephi 1:17:33-40; Jacob 3; Helaman 15)." http://www.farmsresearch.com/publications/...um=6&id=369

Samuel=in the "name of God"

Helaman 13:5

5) And he said unto them: Behold, I, Samuel, a Lamanite, do speak the words of the Lord which he doth put into my heart; and behold he hath put it into my heart to say unto this people that the sword of justice hangeth over this people; and 1 baktun* pass not away save the sword of justice falleth upon this people.

* I couldn't resist

Aha=warrior(egyptian)

Alma 16: 5

5) Therefore, he that had been appointed chief captain over the armies of the Nephites, (and his name was Zoram, and he had two sons, Lehi and Aha)â??now Zoram and his two sons, knowing that Alma was high priest over the church, and having heard that he had the spirit of prophecy, therefore they went unto him and desired of him to know whither the Lord would that they should go into the wilderness in search of their brethren, who had been taken captive by the Lamanites.

Moshiah(Hebrew)=deliver, Savior http://www.ancient-hebrew.org/emagazine/020.html

Mosiah 28:7 "And the Lord said unto Mosiah: Let them go up, for many shall believe on their words, and they shall have eternal life; and I will adeliver thy sons out of the hands of the Lamanites."

Alma 17:35 "Therefore they did not fear Ammon, for they supposed that one of their men could slay him according to their pleasure, for they knew not that the Lord had promised Mosiah that he would deliver his sons out of their hands; neither did they know anything concerning the Lord; therefore they delighted in the destruction of their brethren; and for this cause they stood to scatter the flocks of the king."

Omni 1: 12

12)....Mosiah, who was made king over the bland of Zarahemla; for behold, he being cwarned of the Lord that he should flee out of the land of Nephi, and as many as would hearken unto the voice of the Lord should also gdepart out of the land with him, into the wildernessâ??

Also, an entire book, Book of Mosiah has the deliverance accounts of two groups of people, a sermon on Jesus(King Benjamin), and the deliverance Alma Jr and the Sons of Mosiah, who in turned went on too deliver the Nephites.

Abinadi=father of my wandering www.fairlds.org/pubs/HebrewNames.pdf

After listening to Abinadi, Alma teaches in the wilderness, goes with his people to the land of Helam, and then leads them to Zerahemla. Abinaidi was the father of Alma's wanderings.

Noah

Moshiah 11:14-15

14) And it came to pass that he placed his heart upon his riches, and he spent his time in ariotous living with his wives and his concubines; and so did also his priests spend their time with harlots.

15) And it came to pass that he planted vineyards round about in the land; and he built wine-presses, and made awine in abundance; and therefore he became a wine-bibber, and also his people.

Genesis 9:20-22

20) And Noah began to be an husbandman, and he planted a vineyard:

21) And he drank of the wine, and was drunken; and he was uncovered within his tent.

22) And Ham, the father of Canaan, saw the nakedness of his father, and told his two brethren without.

Laban and Nabal=the two dead drunks

1 Samuel 25: 36-39

Zeezrom=ezrom

Alma 11: 12,21

12) "And an ezrom of silver was as great as four senums"

21)"Behold, here are six onties of silver, and all these will I bgive thee if thou wilt deny the existence of a Supreme Being."

זֶרַע חֶמְלָה Z

[charity's child]

I think it is quite possible that people like Samuel, Mosiah, Noah, Lamoni, Mormon and many others might have had names like: Chaak, Jaguar Paw, Yax Kook, 7 Macaw etc. It is possibe that many of these BoM names were not used outside Mormon's golden plates. I also think it's possible that 1 Nephi might have had a plain old hebrew name like "Yonah", but that later redactors, or Mormon, metanymed him Nephi, the ultimate good guy and father of the good guys.

I think you are quite possibly right. I doubt there was a way to write 7 Macaw or Jaguar Paw in reformed egyptian. So a substitution would have had to be used.

[rameumptom]

It is also possible that two names were used for a person: one for the sacred writings, and one for the public usage. The descendants of Nephi, who became king, were also known as Nephi, for instance.

In some societies, people change their names as their circumstances change. Abram to Abraham, Jacob to Israel.

Finally, there could have been the language of the Hebrews for the sacred writing, attempting to use Semitic names for much of the writing, and then the normal names used by the people and the standard language of the people. I would imagine that most people in India did not know how to speak or write British English, when the UK ruled over the vast peninsula. And while they would have had/used names for British leaders, it wasn't necessarily the same as the ones used by the Brits themselves.

Today, the old city of Bombay is known the the Indian name, Mumbai by many, but still called Bombay by others used to the old British title for the city. Two cultures and languages, each being used at one time in the same place.

[Olavarria]

It is also possible that two names were used for a person: one for the sacred writings, and one for the public usage. The descendants of Nephi, who became king, were also known as Nephi, for instance.

In some societies, people change their names as their circumstances change. Abram to Abraham, Jacob to Israel.

Finally, there could have been the language of the Hebrews for the sacred writing, attempting to use Semitic names for much of the writing, and then the normal names used by the people and the standard language of the people. I would imagine that most people in India did not know how to speak or write British English, when the UK ruled over the vast peninsula. And while they would have had/used names for British leaders, it wasn't necessarily the same as the ones used by the Brits themselves.

Today, the old city of Bombay is known the the Indian name, Mumbai by many, but still called Bombay by others used to the old British title for the city. Two cultures and languages, each being used at one time in the same place.

Here is another one:

Gideon from Judges.

Gideon from Mosiah

whoaaa!!!!

[BCSpace]

Yax Kook

Could be a form of "Jacob"

[Mighty Curelom]

The first step to getting out of a hole is to stop digging. Instead of laying down a new layer of ad hoc nonsense to cover the cracks in the original hypothesis, perhaps you should abandon the original hypothesis as the self-serving, useless tripe that it so obviously is. You could simply admit that there are a finite number of two or three syllable vocalizations, and that hundreds of false cognates can be found between any two languages. If you expand the pool of potential languages to "all semitic and egyptian languages and dialects used from the dawn of time until now," the chances of finding a pair of words that more or less sound the same are 100%. You could admit that the inherent flexibility of language makes it easy to invent connections between any two words, regardless of their actual relationship to each other. If you draw a circle encompassing all the concepts and attributes of the character "Nephi," and then a circle representing all the potential interpretations of a given word--literal, metaphorical, and tangential--there's going to be an overlap. It is, then, no great discovery to find a semitic/egyptian word that can be made to appear related to a Book of Mormon character , allowing dishonest and/or naive apologists to pretend it is a discovery of substance. Admit that it is not a discovery of substance, and you're absolved from the task of fixing the flaws in the theory.

Or you could just keep digging. Either way.

[Olavarria]

Could be a form of "Jacob"

This is what I am starting to wonder...

In the case of Mosiah,Samuel,Nephi,Aha, Lamoni, Zeezrom.... you might have a metanym which uses it's meaning to describe the person to whome it is applied. "Mosiah" and the book named after him, the sons of, were delivered and deliverers. Aha was a fighter, Samuel came in the name of God, The Nephi's were the goodest and their people the "fairest", Lamoni was the Lamanite, Zeezrom used money(ezrom) to bribe, Amalekiah* might have claimed a divine right to rule as ancient kings did, Abinadi was the father of Alma's wondering.

*from Kerry Shirts interview of Bokovoy in one of his pod casts.

Then you have examples where you might have a metanym based on some parrallel in history: Both Gideons("hewer down") were instruments in the hands of God to liberate a people, both were revolutionaries; Both Isabel/Jezebel led away led away the hearts of men to do what was wicked, both Coriantmr's were ruthless and bloody, both Noah's were drunkards, what happens at the waters of Mormon and what should happen when you read Mormon's book, Laban and Nabal's drunken death by God, both Ammon's were instrumental in liberating a people, one mostly temporally the other spiritually and temporally etc.

Hashbaz once pointed out, based on a book he read that that the king list at Palenque is chiastic:

http://www.mormonapologetics.org/index.php...amp;hl=chiasmus

"Palenque: Eternal City of the Mayaâ? by George Stuart and David Stuart. George Stuart was National Geographicâ??s Maya scholar for decades and his son David Stuart is the worldâ??s leading expert on Maya writing and a professor at UT Austin â?? these are not crackpots."

K'uk B'alam I 11 March, 431 - 435

"Casper" (nickname; ancient name not translated; also known as "11 Rabbit") 10 August, 435 - 487

B'utz Aj Sak Chiik 29 July, 487 - 501

Ahkal Mo' Naab' I 5 June, 501 - 1 December, 524

vacant ?

K'an Joy Chitam I 25 February, 529 - 8 February, 565

Ahkal Mo' Naab' II 4 May, 565 - 23 July, 570

vacant ?

Kan B'alam I 8 April, 572 - 3 February, 583

Yohl Ik'nal (female ruler) 583-604

Aj Ne' Yohl Mat 605-612

Pacal I 612

Sak K'uk' (female) 612-615 d. 640

K'inich Janaab' Pakal ("Pacal II"; "Pacal the Great") 615-683

K'inich Kan B'alam II ("Chan Bahlam II") 683-702

K'inich K'an Joy Chitam II ("Kan Xul II") 702-711 d. 722?

Xoc (regent for Kan-Joy Chitam II) 711?-c. 722

K'inich Ahkal Mo' Naab' III ("Chaacal III") 3 January, 722 - after 729

K'inich Janaab' Pakal ("Pacal III") fl. c. 742

K'inich K'uk B'alam II 8 March, 765 - ?

Wak Kimi Janhb' Pakal ("Pacal IV") 17 November, 799-?

( this list is from wikipedi. Lame...i know. But I dont have my Coe book with me, so i cant double check. It looks the same.)

I think its interesting that in this mayan king lists, names repeat themselves in purposeful patterns, across hundreds of years.

This is what Im starting to wonder:

Did Isabel, Gideon, some of the Nephi's, 2nd Coriantmr, Mormon, the 2nd Ammon and others have different names in mortality but were metanymed after people and places of the past because Mormon had the brass plates and large plates, allowing him to make connections between latter times and past times, both in the new and old worlds? COuld this be a form of cross referencing?

Or, in other words, the names people are given on Mormon's gold plates may not have been the names these same people went by during their lifetime. Rather, if they are metanyms they are used to describe the person in light of the metanym's meaning or acquired meaning through historical precedants.

[Olavarria]

The first step to getting out of a hole is to stop digging. Instead of laying down a new layer of ad hoc nonsense to cover the cracks in the original hypothesis, perhaps you should abandon the original hypothesis as the self-serving, useless tripe that it so obviously is. You could simply admit that there are a finite number of two or three syllable vocalizations, and that hundreds of false cognates can be found between any two languages. If you expand the pool of potential languages to "all semitic and egyptian languages and dialects used from the dawn of time until now," the chances of finding a pair of words that more or less sound the same are 100%. You could admit that the inherent flexibility of language makes it easy to invent connections between any two words, regardless of their actual relationship to each other. If you draw a circle encompassing all the concepts and attributes of the character "Nephi," and then a circle representing all the potential interpretations of a given word--literal, metaphorical, and tangential--there's going to be an overlap. It is, then, no great discovery to find a semitic/egyptian word that can be made to appear related to a Book of Mormon character , allowing dishonest and/or naive apologists to pretend it is a discovery of substance. Admit that it is not a discovery of substance, and you're absolved from the task of fixing the flaws in the theory.

Or you could just keep digging. Either way.

Uh....no. No one who accepts the truth(historicity) about the BoM is in a hole.

I'm just trying to understand the BoM better. It doesn't matter if the writer of the BoM was called Mormon or 1 Monkey, the truth is: an ancient prophet living in the early 400'sAD wrote it. Those who don't take him or his message seriously, will find themselves in a hole.

[Olavarria]

A note on the Isabel/Jezebel connection.

"However, the Hebrew(Masoritic) pronounciation of Jezebel is /'Izevel/, while the King James has "Jezebel". The KJV spelling appears to be based on the Greek Iezabel (pronounced Yezabel and found both in the Septuagint for the OT passages and in Rev 2:20)."

http://books.google.com/books?id=pKxN6S1iV...n#PRA3-PA354,M1

[BCSpace]

metanym

An interesting hypothesis. I still tend to think they are the actual names but of course they may have been named after some attribute like metanyms. Consider also...

These are place names:

Teancum = Teyocuman/Retalhuleu

Cumorah = Qumarkah

Jacob = B'okob

Joshua = Xojola or Yoxaja

Judea = Jutiapa

Lehi = Lenca or Leja-mani

Moron = Morozan

Nephihah = Nahuala

Not just pulled out of a hat but actually fit relative locations for a local geographic theory. Check out this detailed map overlaid on Central America.

One significant flaw in this particular theory has been pointed out to me (the development of the location of Ammonihah) but I find it in no way catastrophic. The unique assumption here is that the narrow neck of land or narrow pass are river crossings or valleys, etc.

[Olavarria]

Ether 10: 9, 12-13

Alma 50: 25-26, 28-30, 32-33, 35

The Jaredite and Nephite Morianton

Is the Nephite "Morianton"a metanym to connect these two people? Perhaps Mormon is giving the Nephite despot the Jaredite name of Morianton because they were alike. Kinda like us calling someone a Benedict Arnold, the Devil or Judas.