Chiasmus: The Silent Maya-killer

[Hashbaz]

I got an advance copy of a book that is officially coming out on November 26th called â??Palenque: Eternal City of the Mayaâ? by George Stuart and David Stuart. George Stuart was National Geographicâ??s Maya scholar for decades and his son David Stuart is the worldâ??s leading expert on Maya writing and a professor at UT Austin â?? these are not crackpots. In reviewing the possible reasons for the collapse of the site of Palenque, they discuss the following interesting point on p. 238:

â??The list of kings we know from the historical records [of Palenque] includes 16 rulersâ?¦Many royal names were recycled throughout the Classic period, so thatâ?¦we often find two examples of the same name, one early and one late: Kâ??ukâ?? Bahlam, Kâ??an Joy Chitam, Janab Pakal, and so forth. If we list all of the royal names we find a remarkable pattern to such repetitions: the name of the founding king is also the name of the last; the name of another early lord, Ahkal Moâ?? Nahb, is also the name of Pakalâ??s grandson; the names of two Early Classic kings were reused by Pakalâ??s two ruling grandsons, and so on. In other words, the reuse of names by later kings is not random, but conforms to a reversed re-ordering. The symmetry is not perfect â?? some names do not repeat â?? but the pattern is consistent, with five separate names serving as mirror images of one another. In the center of this pattern of reflection, literally pivotal figures, are the lone woman who ruled Palenque, Ix Yohl Ikâ??nal, and her successor Muwaan Mat, who himself made use of the name of the creator maize god who begat the Palenque Triadâ?¦The overall king list suggests a closed system. With Kâ??inich Kâ??ukâ?? Bahlamâ??s installment on the throne, would the Maya of Palenque have understood that he was, as a mirror of the founder, â??the lastâ? king?â?

Looks like chiasmus caused the collapse of the Maya. Weird.

[Sargon]

I got an advance copy of a book that is officially coming out on November 26th called â??Palenque: Eternal City of the Mayaâ? by George Stuart and David Stuart. George Stuart was National Geographicâ??s Maya scholar for decades and his son David Stuart is the worldâ??s leading expert on Maya writing and a professor at UT Austin â?? these are not crackpots. In reviewing the possible reasons for the collapse of the site of Palenque, they discuss the following interesting point on p. 238:

â??The list of kings we know from the historical records [of Palenque] includes 16 rulersâ?¦Many royal names were recycled throughout the Classic period, so thatâ?¦we often find two examples of the same name, one early and one late: Kâ??ukâ?? Bahlam, Kâ??an Joy Chitam, Janab Pakal, and so forth. If we list all of the royal names we find a remarkable pattern to such repetitions: the name of the founding king is also the name of the last; the name of another early lord, Ahkal Moâ?? Nahb, is also the name of Pakalâ??s grandson; the names of two Early Classic kings were reused by Pakalâ??s two ruling grandsons, and so on. In other words, the reuse of names by later kings is not random, but conforms to a reversed re-ordering. The symmetry is not perfect â?? some names do not repeat â?? but the pattern is consistent, with five separate names serving as mirror images of one another. In the center of this pattern of reflection, literally pivotal figures, are the lone woman who ruled Palenque, Ix Yohl Ikâ??nal, and her successor Muwaan Mat, who himself made use of the name of the creator maize god who begat the Palenque Triadâ?¦The overall king list suggests a closed system. With Kâ??inich Kâ??ukâ?? Bahlamâ??s installment on the throne, would the Maya of Palenque have understood that he was, as a mirror of the founder, â??the lastâ? king?â?

Looks like chiasmus caused the collapse of the Maya. Weird.

Mark,

It is great to see you posting again. How is the dissertation coming?

If I recall, David Stuart is not only the world's leading expert on Maya writing but is the very person who cracked the "Maya code." I watched a documentary on that subject on NOVA a while back.

Regarding your subject matter, is this only an isolated incidence of chiasmus among the Maya? Has it ever been seen elsewhere?

Thanks for the neat insight, I look forward to more from you in the future.

James

[Kevin Christensen]

Allen Christenson has published on Chiasmus in Mayan. See Reexploring the Book of Mormon, 233-235 for details.

Kevin Christensen

Bethel Park, PA

[Sargon]

Thanks!

[Olavarria]

Funny, chiasmus wasn't discovered in the BoM until the 1960's and Mayan glyphs weren't cracked until the 1950's. So it isn't until 100 years after the BoM translation that we discover that chiasmus existed in both the BoM and in ancient Mesoamerica.

[Marmonboy]

That's not true--there was a book about chiasmus in the Palmyra Public Library that Joseph Smith checked out numerous times while writing the Book of Mormon.

Correct me if I'm wrong.

[jkfrost]

The demise of Mayan football as well:

This glyph is found in the Temple Of Inscriptions, located in the ancitent ruins of Palenque. It is composed of three symbols: UT, CH, and I. In 1985, David Stuart, a Mayan scholar, interpreted the sound of the glyph as "Ut" in the Chol language and "Utchi" in Mayan, meaning "to happen, or to come to pass." The phrase "And it came to pass" appears in the Book of Mormon over 1,000 times -- 526 times in the Old Testament and 87 times in the New Testament.

"AND IT CAME TO PASS" MAYAN LDS MORMON DESK ART now being sold on ebay...

[Sargon]

That's not true--there was a book about chiasmus in the Palmyra Public Library that Joseph Smith checked out numerous times while writing the Book of Mormon.

Correct me if I'm wrong.

If I remember correctly, that book also had a chapter about the Mayan knack for counting years in baktuns, as well as some information in an appendix about how to perform mass hypnosis.

Sargon

[jkfrost]

That's not true--there was a book about chiasmus in the Palmyra Public Library that Joseph Smith checked out numerous times while writing the Book of Mormon.

Correct me if I'm wrong.

Books JS needed to check out of the Palmyra Public Library for the BOM:

KJV Bible including the Apocrypha including

1 and 2 Maccabees

I'll add one of my own : 2 Esdras 13 on the ten tribes.

Paul in NT

Malachi

Jesus

Isaiah

View of the Hebrews ( only it was on the ten tribes instead. )

Shakespeare

The Spaulding Manuscript

James Adair, author of A History of the American Indians

George Whitefield

E.T.A. Hoffmann's The Golden Pot

a must read below:

One Day in the Life of Joseph Smith,

Amazing "Translator" of the Book of Mormon

Satirical Skit by Jeff Lindsay,

[Olavarria]

That's not true--there was a book about chiasmus in the Palmyra Public Library that Joseph Smith checked out numerous times while writing the Book of Mormon.

Correct me if I'm wrong.

Uh....correct me if your right. Where did you here this?

I admit that I know close to nothing about the Palmyra Library or whether Joseph ever checked out books there. Anyone got any info?

Can you give us any evidence showing that any mormon, Joseph or otherwise, knew the Book of Mormon had chiasmus in it, before Welch discovered it in the 1960's?

[sweetpotatoh]

Her Amun, it's sarcasm.

Edited for spelling.

[Olavarria]

Her Amun, it's sarcasm.

Edited for spelling.

Unless Joseph went to the Palmyra library, studied chiasmus, dictated the chiasms as his face was buried in the hat THEN did not tell anyone chismus was in the BoM because he knew someone would discover it in the future.......oh snap, did I just say he could see the future?