Deification

[johnny]

BCSpace,

[A secondary note: Considering what the trinity is, perhaps we should clarify what you mean by "God". Typically, in the trinitarian vernacular, 'God" is neither the Father or the Son or the HG, but all three interpenetrating personalities together. Hence it make no sense for a trinitarian to consider this question.

For a trinitarian "God" can be the Father, the Apostle's Creed states "I believe in God, the Father almighty, creator of heaven and earth.".

What does not make sense is the Mormon teaching the Heavenly Father became God because this is contrary to what the Bible reveals. The Bible reveals that God is God "from everlasting to everlasting" (Psalm 90:1,2).

However, since none of the ECF were trinitarians in any modern sense, it's more intuitive to ask this in the LDS sense because in our vernacular, "God" refers to only one of the Three, usually the Father.]

The ECF were trinitarians, they did not believe in "three Gods" like Joseph SMith taught. They believed in "one God". The ECF taught one God and God in three persons.

God in Three Persons

http://www.catholic.com/library/God_in_Three_Persons.asp

"Jesus Christ . . . was with the Father before the beginning of time, and in the end was revealed. . . . Jesus Christ . . . came forth from one Father and is with and has gone to one [Father]. . . . [T]here is one God, who has manifested himself by Jesus Christ his Son, who is his eternal Word, not proceeding forth from silence, and who in all things pleased him that sent him"

Holy Trinity

http://www.cin.org/users/jgallegos/triune.htm

For they know well that a Triad is preached by divine Scripture, but that bneither Old Testament nor New preaches three Gods.

God the Son

http://www.cin.org/users/jgallegos/son.htm

I do not mean that there are two Gods, but that it is only as light of light, or as water from a fountain, or as a ray from the sun.

It is true that there is nothing in the ECF (as far as I can tell) showing that God Himself (the Father) was once a mortal man.

The ECF did not teach the Mormon doctrine that "God Himself (the Father) was once a mortal man", the ECF taught God is uncreated and unalterable (see below):

Ex Nihilo(Create from Nothing)

http://www.cin.org/users/jgallegos/exnihilo.htm

"And further, as God, because He is uncreated, is also unalterable; so if matter, too, were uncreated, it also would be unalterable, and equal to God; for that which is created is mutable and alterable, but that which is uncreated is immutable and unalterable. And what great thing is it if God made the world out of existent materials? For even a human artist, when he gets material from some one, makes of it what he pleases. But the power of God is manifested in this, that out of things that are not He makes whatever He pleases; just as the bestowal of life and motion is the prerogative of no other than God alone." Theophilus of Antioch,Autolycus,2:4(A.D. 181), in ANF,II:95

However, since virtually every other LDS doctrine about the Godhead and Deiifcation is present among them, it is more reasonable to think that this doctrine was lost than it is to think that it never existed outside the scriptures.

The ECF did not teach any of the following Mormon doctrines of Deification.

- Man is the same species as God

- God is an exalted man

- God and a Heavenly mother bore spirit children

- Humans are literal offspring of God

- Humans are gods in embroy

- God became God

- The Father and the Son are "a god"

- There are "three gods"

[Beowulf]

I have heard Father Vajda himself describe HOW and WHY he left the Catholic Church.

While it is all one-sided (i.e., I only heard his side of it), I heard no mention of apostasy, of excommunication, of a holy order rife with heretics.

I DID hear him describe how he one day decided (after long introspection) that he must follow his heart, and resign from the Dominican Order and be baptized LDS. His superiors pleaded with him to stay, but he could not do so.

There was no mention of a Church court, of an inquisition. In fact, it appears that Father Vajda left the Catholic Church and joined the Mormon Church without any institutional coercion at all.

Beowulf

[Daniel Peterson]

That's precisely how I heard him tell the story, over dinner one night. I have no reason to question it. He seems a very decent fellow, and an honest one.

[johnny]

Daniel Peterson,

That's precisely how I heard him tell the story, over dinner one night. I have no reason to question it. He seems a very decent fellow, and an honest one.

As a Catholic, I find it very amusing BUY.EDU exhibits his paper because it shows how huge the difference is between the Mormon doctrine of Deification and the Catholic doctrine of Deification. This "very decent fellow, and an honest" fellow describe this difference as "profoundly different".

On the basis of your own understanding of the ancient doctrine of theosis, are you prepared to identify his specific errors and to critique them?

On the basis of my understanding his paper shows how different the "ancient doctrine of theosis" and the new Mormon doctrine of theosis. To see the specific errors in the Mormon doctrine of Deification a person just needs to read the writings of the Early Apostolic Christians.

Nobody is saying that we need "validation from the outside." But if simply quoting from "outsiders" in order to support an argument indicates "a lack of confidence and . . . a very weak position," then you might want to consider that old saying about glass houses and stones.

I find it indicates a deceiving position because the Mormon doctrine of Deification differs significantly from that of orthodox Christian theology.

[Uncle Dale]

...the difference between sweet nectar and pure poison...

So, where do we stand, after 80 postings in this thread?

What sacred instruction, what godly wisdom, what edification do

we derive from all of these back and forth postings?

From all of this low argumentation, backbiting and recrimination?

Here we have the partisans for two "one true churches" providing

their communications on what is arguably the most important

teaching the human heart might ever ponder -- being close to God.

Here we have proponents of an incredibly rich and wonderful

heritage of beatification, sainthood and holiness, admired far

beyond the membership of the RCC.

Here we have the testimony of the hopeful restorers of Jesus' own

ecclesia -- the followers of prophets and apostles in these latter days.

And from all of their exchanges, back and forth, how much closer have

we outsiders -- we observers from afar -- come into the Divine Presence?

How much revelation of God's fatherhood and kingdom is thus given us?

None.

Shame upon both of your houses --

Uncle Dale

.

[Doctor Steuss]

[...]

Shame upon both of your houses --

[...]

Only shame? Not a curse or plague?

Pfffttt...

[Uncle Dale]

Only shame? Not a curse or plague?

Pfffttt...

I strongly object to your shameless attempt at dragging

me out of the theological mud, and up to your level!!

So THERE!

Your Uncle Dale

.

[Tanyan]

Yes I am resurrecting this thread , see also Jules Gross Book : The Divination Of The Christian According to the Greek Fathers. A&C Press Anahiem C.A. 2002. ISBN # 0-7363-1600-0. 306 Pages.

A&C Press, P.O Box 2032, Anaheim C.A 92814-0032. "The Atonement It Is The Central Doctrine" Bruce R. McConkie. In His Debt/Grace, Tanyan.

[Matthew J. Tandy]

I hate it when I'm too busy to read a thread I was highly interested in because it moved too quick and replies are lengthy. A Danite curse upon all those who have so much free time as to create this problem, a curse upon you even unto the fourth generation!!! I call forth the spirit of Samson Avard from the grave to bring retribution!

****This is the kind of post you get when there's only a short time to catch up on topics of interest!***

[selek]

I hate it when I'm too busy to read a thread I was highly interested in because it moved too quick and replies are lengthy. A Danite curse upon all those who have so much free time as to create this problem, a curse upon you even unto the fourth generation!!! I call forth the spirit of Samson Avard from the grave to bring retribution!

****This is the kind of post you get when there's only a short time to catch up on topics of interest!***

I've got a squirt-gun. Will that suffice as a substitute?