Why Were The Brass Plates In Egyptian?

[William Schryver]

Actually it predates Lehi in its founding

And, Elephantine is hardly the only settlement of Israelites in Egypt in the pre-exilic period. We can comfortably conclude that thousands of Israelites lived in scattered pockets in Egypt during that period. Elephantine is simply the best-known example of Israelite presence along the banks of the Nile.

[Joseph Antley]

Actually it predates Lehi in its founding

Yes, that's what I figured. But I also thought that the Elephantine community was pretty isolated from the Jerusalem Jews. I can't imagine Elephantine Jews conforming to the Jerusalem priests' temple centrism.

[William Schryver]

Moroni knew a reformed Hebrew -- and felt more comfortable writing in it than he did reformed Egyptian â?¦

There is nothing in Moroniâ??s statement that would support this assertion. He is simply noting that, in his view, Hebrew was a better language for expressing, in writing, the things they wanted to say. Remember his later lament on the same topic:

Ether 12

23 And I said unto him: Lord, the Gentiles will mock at these things, because of our weakness in writing; for Lord thou hast made us mighty in word by faith, but thou hast not made us mighty in writing; for thou hast made all this people that they could speak much, because of the Holy Ghost which thou hast given them;

24 And thou hast made us that we could write but little, because of the awkwardness of our hands. Behold, thou hast not made us mighty in writing like unto the brother of Jared, for thou madest him that the things which he wrote were mighty even as thou art, unto the overpowering of man to read them.

Apparently their language was preferred for its eloquence when spoken, but it was considered inferior to other languages in its written form. Nevertheless, it had one advantage that Mormon considered overriding: it was compact.

It is evident to me that Mormon and his son were fluent in several languages: the spoken, modified Egyptian language of the people, Hebrew, and apparently even the language of the brother of Jared, which Moroni lauds as â??overpowering.â?

Actually only Nephi and Moroni mention the record being in Egyptian.

That is not correct. King Benjamin tells his sons:

Mosiah 1

4 â?¦ it were not possible that our father, Lehi, could have remembered all these things, to have taught them to his children, except it were for the help of these plates; for he having been taught in the language of the Egyptians therefore he could read these engravings, and teach them to his children, that thereby they could teach them to their children, and so fulfilling the commandments of God, even down to this present time.

Not only was Egyptian the language of Lehiâ??s fathers, but he desired the plates of brass in order to preserve that language to his children, and his children's children, and on down the generations, even down to this present time.

I don't think there is any evidence that Egyptian was the popular language of the Nephites as opposed to Hebrew. I think that Egyptian as the prominent language is more appealing, but I just don't see it.

And I donâ??t understand how anyone can dispute that we are told explicitly that the language of Lehiâ??s fathers was Egyptian, and that the plates of brass were retrieved, in part, for the express purpose of preserving that language among his children. And that, from 600 BC until 130 BC, they had been doing precisely that. Therefore we have Benjamin teaching his children the old written form of Egyptian (not the â??reformedâ?) so that they might be â??men of understanding.â? And in the 4th century, Mormon is writing his record in Egyptian.

Egyptian, Egyptian, Egyptian.

I have found no evidence that Hebrew was spoken among the Nephites. In fact, I am quite confident that there is no indication to that effect in the entire text of the Book of Mormon. None at all.

It was not the language of Lehi and his fathers. It was not the language they taught to their children. At least not according to the Book of Mormon.

Iâ??m also a little mystified as to why many people seem to have an extremely negative reaction to the idea of Egyptian being the primary language of Lehi and his family. If it were true, would that be a bad thing? If so, why?

[John Williams]

Iâ??m also a little mystified as to why many people seem to have an extremely negative reaction to the idea of Egyptian being the primary language of Lehi and his family. If it were true, would that be a bad thing? If so, why?

It wouldn't be a bad thing, just an odd thing. It seems awfully strange that an Israelite family living in or near Jerusalem would speak and write Egyptian as their primary language, and when they took the records of their ancestors, those too would be written in Egyptian. So, I'm not having so much a negative reaction as a puzzled one.

[William Schryver]

It wouldn't be a bad thing, just an odd thing. It seems awfully strange that an Israelite family living in or near Jerusalem would speak and write Egyptian as their primary language, and when they took the records of their ancestors, those too would be written in Egyptian. So, I'm not having so much a negative reaction as a puzzled one.

There are hundreds of thousands of Russian-speaking Jews living in or near Jerusalem today. They also speak Hebrew, no doubt. But their primary language and that of their "fathers" is Russian.

Lehi tells us that the language of his fathers was Egyptian. From this we can confidently conclude that they lived in Egypt, no doubt alongside the thousands of other Hebrews who had been living in Egypt for decades and even centuries.

By 600 B.C., Lehi has repatriated himself to someplace within greater Israel. So what? That doesn't change his primary language, nor that of his immediate ancestors whose language, we are told explicitly, was Egyptian. And the language of the records they sought so anxiously was, we are told explicitly, Egyptian.

[John Williams]

There are hundreds of thousands of Russian-speaking Jews living in or near Jerusalem today. They also speak Hebrew, no doubt. But their primary language and that of their "fathers" is Russian.

Lehi tells us that the language of his fathers was Egyptian. From this we can confidently conclude that they lived in Egypt, no doubt alongside the thousands of other Hebrews who had been living in Egypt for decades and even centuries.

By 600 B.C., Lehi has repatriated himself to someplace within greater Israel. So what? That doesn't change his primary language, nor that of his immediate ancestors whose language, we are told explicitly, was Egyptian. And the language of the records they sought so anxiously was, we are told explicitly, Egyptian.

That actually kind of makes sense, Will. I'm still puzzled as to how an Egyptian-speaking Jew goes to Jerusalem to get "the record of the Jews," which is written on plates in Egyptian. But then I'm not all that smart, as you well know.

[Joseph Antley]

There is nothing in Moroniâ??s statement that would support this assertion. He is simply noting that, in his view, Hebrew was a better language for expressing, in writing, the things they wanted to say. Remember his later lament on the same topic:

Apparently their language was preferred for its eloquence when spoken, but it was considered inferior to other languages in its written form. Nevertheless, it had one advantage that Mormon considered overriding: it was compact.

I disagree. I think Moroni is clearly saying he can write better in Hebrew, and the only reason he is using Egyptian is because it's compact. He is clearly more comfortable with Hebrew.

It is evident to me that Mormon and his son were fluent in several languages: the spoken, modified Egyptian language of the people, Hebrew, and apparently even the language of the brother of Jared, which Moroni lauds as â??overpowering.â?

Obviously Mormon and Moroni were well-educated people. They were both scribes and historians, and a knowledge of languages would have definitely been needed. But I don't see any evidence that they spoke/wrote in any languages besides their adapted Egyptian and Hebrew, though it's definitely possible (and maybe probable that they knew some Lamanite dialects that diverged from their language). If I'm not mistaken, the record of Ether had been translated by Mosiah through the power of God, and I would assume that they were reading Mosiah's translation.

Not only was Egyptian the language of Lehiâ??s fathers, but he desired the plates of brass in order to preserve that language to his children, and his children's children, and on down the generations, even down to this present time.

Where does it say that Egyptian was the language of Lehi's fathers? I'm not disputing it -- I think it's entirely possible -- but I must have missed the reference.

And I donâ??t understand how anyone can dispute that we are told explicitly that the language of Lehiâ??s fathers was Egyptian, and that the plates of brass were retrieved, in part, for the express purpose of preserving that language among his children. And that, from 600 BC until 130 BC, they had been doing precisely that. Therefore we have Benjamin teaching his children the old written form of Egyptian (not the â??reformedâ?) so that they might be â??men of understanding.â? And in the 4th century, Mormon is writing his record in Egyptian.

Egyptian, Egyptian, Egyptian.

Yes, Egyptian was definitely written and probably spoken among the Nephites. Nobody is disputing that.

But Hebrew was popular as well. Nephi tells us that his record was written with a combination of Hebrew and Egyptian, which he says was the language of his father, Lehi. And centuries of later, we have Moroni telling us that he and his father would have rather written in their preference, Hebrew, but had to write in reformed Egyptian to conserve plates.

Indeed, it is implied that Hebrew was used by the Nephites because Moroni says that they altered it. Why and how would they have altered it if it wasn't used?

I have found no evidence that Hebrew was spoken among the Nephites. In fact, I am quite confident that there is no indication to that effect in the entire text of the Book of Mormon. None at all.

Nephi wrote his record with elements of Hebrew. Moroni says he would have rather written in Hebrew, and that the Nephites had adapted Hebrew to their needs. We have Hebrew personal and place names such as Zarahemla.

I that that is an idication to that effect.

Iâ??m also a little mystified as to why many people seem to have an extremely negative reaction to the idea of Egyptian being the primary language of Lehi and his family. If it were true, would that be a bad thing? If so, why?

I have absolutely no negative reaction to that idea. In fact, I find it more appealing. But I just don't feel like the evidence points towards it. Hebrew was alive and well among the Nephites throughout their civilization's history.

[poulsenll]

I'm uncertain what conclusion you are drawing, Larry.

That they modified the language to reflect their manner of speech can mean many things. To me, the most logical changes would be altering characters to reflect phonetic changes through the years. For example, we no longer use the word "ensample" because it has morphed into "example," and its spelling has been altered accordingly.

All I meant was that he was talking about speech "Egyptian" being modified not just the written language. I think the vernacualar was more likely Egyptian and only the elite retained any Hebrew. We are not told that they brought Hebrew writings but it may have been possible. They at least had the oral tradition of the Hebrew scriptures.

Larry P

[William Schryver]

Joseph Antley:

Nephi tells us that his record was written with a combination of Hebrew and Egyptian ...

I'm sorry, but Nephi does not say any such thing. Nephi never makes any reference to Hebrew at all in his writings.

On the other hand, he does say that the language of his father was Egyptian, and that the language of his father's fathers was Egyptian, and that they retrieved the plates of brass for the express purpose of preserving that language for their children, and their children's children, etc. And, at the time of King Benjamin (almost 500 years later) they were still teaching both the Egyptian of the plates of brass (presumably conventional Egyptian) as well as (presumably) the "reformed" Egyptian.

The references are in the first five chapters of 1 Nephi. I've quoted most (but not all) of them above.

I just don't think there is any indication, early on (from Lehi and Nephi) that Hebrew was their primary language. In fact, I think the indications are that their primary language was Egyptian. That they spoke Hebrew, wrote Hebrew, read Hebrew, etc., is almost certain. But the evidence would seem to indicate that Lehi and his immediate ancestors were of Egyptian origin, albeit they were certainly Israelites (descendants of the northern kingdom tribes).

[Joseph Antley]

Joseph Antley:

I'm sorry, but Nephi does not say any such thing. Nephi never makes any reference to Hebrew at all in his writings.

Here is what Nephi says:

"Yea, I make a record in the language of my father, which consists of the learning of the Jews and the language of the Egyptians." (1 Nephi 1:2)

The language of Lehi consists of the "learning of the Jews" and Egyptian. The "learning of the Jews" in terms of language is obviously Hebrew. Nephi is making a record in the language of his father, which consisted of Hebrew and Egyptian. I would imagine that he is distinguishing between the actual language and the script he was using to write it.

A record in a language that consisted of the learning of the Jews and the language of the Egyptians seems to me to be a record written in Hebrew with Egyptian script.

The variable here is whether Joseph Smith was translating literally here.

On the other hand, he does say that the language of his father was Egyptian

Actually he says the language of his father was a combination of the "learning of the Jews" and Egyptian.

and that the language of his father's fathers was Egyptian

How do you know that?

The references are in the first five chapters of 1 Nephi. I've quoted most (but not all) of them above.

I must've missed references that said that Lehi's fathers spoke Egyptian. If it's not too much trouble, could you repost one of them?

I just don't think there is any indication, early on (from Lehi and Nephi) that Hebrew was their primary language. In fact, I think the indications are that their primary language was Egyptian. That they spoke Hebrew, wrote Hebrew, read Hebrew, etc., is almost certain. But the evidence would seem to indicate that Lehi and his immediate ancestors were of Egyptian origin, albeit they were certainly Israelites (descendants of the northern kingdom tribes).

There also no indication that the spoken language was Egyptian, aside from Moroni saying it was spoken, though he also indicates Hebrew was being used. Apparently both languages survived side-by-side in altered forms for several centuries. There are also numerous place and people names that are apparently of Hebrew origin -- not the least of which is Lehi's name.

I think the Mulekite factor should also be considered. The Mulekites were definitely originally Hebrew speakers, but by the time of their discovery by Mosiah I, Mormon records that their language had become corrupted so that the Nephites could not understand them. The fact that they expected to be able to communicate with the Mulekites implies that they still spoke a relatively pure form of Hebrew.

[William Schryver]

JA:

The language of Lehi consists of the "learning of the Jews" and Egyptian. The "learning of the Jews" in terms of language is obviously Hebrew. Nephi is making a record in the language of his father, which consisted of Hebrew and Egyptian. I would imagine that he is distinguishing between the actual language and the script he was using to write it.

A record in a language that consisted of the learning of the Jews and the language of the Egyptians seems to me to be a record written in Hebrew with Egyptian script.

Joseph, I donâ??t see any valid rationale for interpreting the phrase â??the learning of the Jews and the language of the Egyptiansâ? as implying that Nephi would write Hebrew words with an Egyptian script. Could you explain to me why you think that Lehi would do such a thing? Iâ??m not saying it is not possible. It very well could be. But why do it? Why not write Hebrew words with Hebrew script? You see, Egyptian does not easily lend itself to expressing Hebrew words with its script. There are variants in the pronunciation of several vowels and consonants such that there would be inherent compromises in phonetic meaning if one attempted to render Hebrew words with an Egyptian script. Furthermore, both written languages are phonetic in nature. And the fact is that conventional Egyptian does not have the ability to render language any more compactly than does conventional Hebrew. And there is no indication that the â??reformed Egyptianâ? dates to the time of Lehi. The phrase â??reformed Egyptianâ? is only used by Moroni, a thousand years after Lehi. At the time of Lehi, I know of no advantage that could be described for using Egyptian script to record Hebrew words. According to what I have come to understand, conventional Egyptian probably would have required more space to record a word than would conventional Hebrew.

So, why do you think that the phrase â??learning of the Jews and the language of the Egyptiansâ? would mean anything more than the fact that Lehi was instructed in Jewish religious practices and history (their â??learningâ?) but was raised in Egypt and was a descendant of those Israelites who had fled to Egypt from the northern kingdom prior to the Assyrian conquest, and therefore had grown up speaking Egyptian?

I must've missed references that said that Lehi's fathers spoke Egyptian. If it's not too much trouble, could you repost one of them?

First of all, we know that the plates of brass were written in Egyptian. I donâ??t think this is in dispute. King Benjamin, speaking to his three sons, says:

Mosiah 1

3 â?¦ My sons, I would that ye should remember that were it not for these plates, which contain these records and these commandments, we must have suffered in ignorance, even at this present time, not knowing the mysteries of God.

4 For it were not possible that our father, Lehi, could have remembered all these things, to have taught them to his children, except it were for the help of these plates; for he having been taught in the language of the Egyptians therefore he could read these engravings, and teach them to his children, that thereby they could teach them to their children, and so fulfilling the commandments of God, even down to this present time.

And, when Nephi is speaking to his brothers, attempting to convince them of the importance of obtaining the plates, says the following:

1 Nephi 3

19 And behold, it is wisdom in God that we should obtain these records, that we may preserve unto our children the language of our fathers;

The plates of brass were written in Egyptian. Nephi tells us part of the reason they had to retrieve them was to â??preserve unto our children the language of our fathers.â?

I canâ??t see any more logical interpretation. Can you? I am quite cognizant of the fact that many people have long assumed/argued that the Lehites were Hebrew speakers. They obviously assume this because the Book of Mormon identifies them as Israelites who were fleeing from Jerusalem. What this conclusion fails to consider, in my opinion, is the fact that the text of the Book of Mormon is quite clear in emphasizing the Egyptian origins of Lehi and â??his fathers.â? And, we know that there were, in fact, many Israelites, primarily from the northern tribes (the most numerous of whom were Ephraim and Manasseh) who lived in Egypt in the pre-exile period. To me, when all things are considered without prejudice, it becomes quite logical to conclude that Lehi was a descendant of those Israelites, descendants of Joseph, who lived in Egypt, and had done so for several generations.

The Mulekites were definitely originally Hebrew speakers â?¦

Other than what is said about Mulek, we have no information about the ethnic composition of the people of Zarahemla. Most students of the Book of Mormon, dating back to the turn of the 20th century, believe that the people of Zarahemla were a composite of an emigrant group and the indigenous people they encountered in the Americas, and that this melding would have resulted in the corruption of their language.

In Matt Roperâ??s great essay Nephiâ??s Neighbors, he cites this early reference to such an interpretation:

Another Latter-day Saint author, in or about 1887, surmised that Lehi's people and the Jaredites "were contemporary co-workers in the work of civilizing the aborigines of the promise[d] land."18 He viewed the account of Mosiah's union with the people of Zarahemla as evidence for the existence of indigenous peoples already in the land when they arrived. Mosiah "had to teach the Nephite language to the Zarahemlans, for though the parents of both people had come from Jerusalem at about the same time, and must have then the same verbiage, their off-spring took rather to their mothers, as it was but natural. Probably those Aborigines mothers were more numerous and influential, than their Hebrew husbands."

In my opinion, realizing the Egyptian origins of Lehi goes far to explaining many things that we observe in the Book of Mormon, not the least being the many Egyptian names that predominate throughout the book.

Nevertheless, you are certainly entitled to your interpretations and opinions. I have now expressed my conclusions as best I can. If you donâ??t find the arguments persuasive, you are certainly welcome to retain your own conclusions. No matter who is right, it is apparent that we both consider the Book of Mormon to be true. And that is all that really matters in the end. One day, weâ??ll have access to the fuller record, then perhaps we will be able to resolve this debate once and for all.

[Calm]

And I still find it hard to believe -- in fact, I don't believe it -- that a literate, wealthy Israelite like Lehi, who was apparently enlightened enough to accept a call from God to be his prophet, was not learned in the torah and prophets.

Well, I wouldn't say that Joseph Smith was all that learned in the scriptures of his day, so being learned doesn't seem to be a requirement for prophethood.

IF Lehi's family business was traveling merchants, it is possible imo that he did not have a chance to attend school in the Jewish community enough to qualify as "learned" even though they could have afforded it, being on the move too much helping out and learning the family business so to speak. He might have been quite well grounded in the oral tradition without having much experience in areas of learning only accessible through something besides 'homeschooling'.

[Calm]

learning of the Jews

Why would Nephi use "language" for Egyptian and "learning" for the Jews if he meant the same thing for both---the language. Seems to me the "learning of the Jews" is more likely referring to actual knowledge, ie. concepts, not necessarily the language in which that knowledge is written. And while it is most likely to have been written in Hebrew, aren't there examples of Jewish "learning" written in other languages or at least combinations of languages (such as Aramaic and Hebrew) as they spread throughout the Middle East and beyond. (Even in the Bible, you have Daniel's friends and Esther being referred to primarily by their nonHebrew names.)

[William Schryver]

(Joseph Antley @ Feb 27 2008, 11:46 PM)

And I still find it hard to believe -- in fact, I don't believe it -- that a literate, wealthy Israelite like Lehi, who was apparently enlightened enough to accept a call from God to be his prophet, was not learned in the torah and prophets.

calmoriah:

Well, I wouldn't say that Joseph Smith was all that learned in the scriptures of his day, so being learned doesn't seem to be a requirement for prophethood.

IF Lehi's family business was traveling merchants, it is possible imo that he did not have a chance to attend school in the Jewish community enough to qualify as "learned" even though they could have afforded it, being on the move too much helping out and learning the family business so to speak. He might have been quite well grounded in the oral tradition without having much experience in areas of learning only accessible through something besides 'homeschooling'.

Great observation. I see nothing in the record we have that would indicate that Lehi was anything but an â??outsiderâ? in terms of what was going on in Jerusalem.

Why would Nephi use "language" for Egyptian and "learning" for the Jews if he meant the same thing for both---the language. Seems to me the "learning of the Jews" is more likely referring to actual knowledge, ie. concepts, not necessarily the language in which that knowledge is written.

Of course, I entirely agree. To me, the phrase â??the learning of the Jews and language of the Egyptiansâ? is not intended to convey anything more than the idea that Lehi was an Israelite with immediate Egyptian origins. And again, the best explanation for such a scenario seems to be the mini-exodus-in-reverse that occurred during the period of the Assyrian siege of the northern Kingdom. We know that Lehi was of the tribe of Manasseh and Ishmael from the tribe of Ephraim â?? the predominant northern tribes, and the ones with the most logical attraction to Egypt.