Do We Believve God's Love Is Conditional Or Unconditional?

[HiJolly]

Well, that all sounds good but I am in agreement with Elder Nelson on this one. I think God's Love IS Conditional...

Otherwise...

1. Satan wouldn't have been kicked out along with 1/3 of God's children.

2. There would be no Judgment Day where the wicked (His children) are going to be punished

3. The Flood would have never happened

4. Laban would have kept his head on his shoulders

5. And I can think of a lot of war stories where men, women, children and animal were unceremoniously destroyed.

6. Korihor would have continued to be a motivational speaker

"... the Lord caused Korihor to become dumb (Alma 30: 6-60)...."

7. The thief on the cross would have joined the other one in Paradise...

8. The Egyptian wouldn't have been buried in the sand after Moses whacked him.

9. Cain would have been spared

10. All the first-born in the land of Egypt would have been spared

"And it came to pass, that at midnight the LORD smote all the firstborn in the land of Egypt, from the firstborn of Pharaoh that sat on his throne unto the firstborn of the captive that was in the dungeon; and all the firstborn of cattle."

Exodus 12:29

I think your definition of love is messed up. God loves EVERYONE, with an intensity and depth that you cannot understand until you experience it. And even then, understanding it is questionable. God did NOT kick Satan out of Heaven because He loved Satan less after his rebellion than before. Same for all the other examples you give. Love is bigger, and more far-reaching than you apparently suppose.

HiJolly

[Paul Ray]

Well, that all sounds good but I am in agreement with Elder Nelson on this one. I think God's Love IS Conditional...

Otherwise...

Love doesn't mean never taking the time to discipline those who you love.

1. Satan wouldn't have been kicked out along with 1/3 of God's children.

They rebelled against God. They didn't repent. God's house is a house of order.

Shape up or ship out. They wouldn't shape up or ship out.

Their story isn't over until it is over.

2. There would be no Judgment Day where the wicked (His children) are going to be punished

God's punishment is actually a very lenient form of punishment, when you think about it.

Those who don't want to live like God lives will not be forced to live that way, and they will have a place prepared for them according to what they are willing to accept from God. Those who don't want anything will get nothing.

3. The Flood would have never happened

Another instance of cleaning house and making way for others to live the good life.

Those who die simply go somewhere else, you know.

It's not like they were wiped out of total existence.

4. Laban would have kept his head on his shoulders

It was better for everybody to just send him on to the other side.

5. And I can think of a lot of war stories where men, women, children and animal were unceremoniously destroyed.

They were simply taken from one place and sent to another place.

They might not have enjoyed the process, but it all turned out like they wanted in the end.

6. Korihor would have continued to be a motivational speaker.

"... the Lord caused Korihor to become dumb (Alma 30: 6-60)...."

Some people don't say anything worth hearing anyway.

7. The thief on the cross would have joined the other one in Paradise...

He still did. They both ended up where they wanted to be.

8. The Egyptian wouldn't have been buried in the sand after Moses whacked him.

I think it's only fitting that everyone be given a decent burial.

9. Cain would have been spared

Cain had his chance to repent. He didn't want to, and he knew the consequences.

He ended up with what he chose for himself.

10. All the first-born in the land of Egypt would have been spared

The pharoah pronounced that curse. God simply did to him what he wanted to do to other people.

... in accordance with God's golden rule and law of forgiveness, etc.

[LifeOnaPlate]

I find the Nelson talk very strange and I can't quite figure out what his purpose was in delivering it. Since God's love is not unconditional that means there are conditions to either have or not have His love. It is not clear from the talk if He conditionally loves or conditionally doesn't love. Suppose I find myself in that state of having met the conditions to be out of His love. What does that mean?

Does that mean I am no longer eligible for repentance and the atonement. If that is not the case, then how is not having the conditional love of God any different than having the conditional love of God. Or in other words, what is the difference between the two states?

Maybe someone can help me out.

John

I believe I summed it up very nicely. God may love unconditionally, but what he can do with that love is conditional upon our response. So unconditional and conditioned. Interesting stuff, indeed. It revolves around the agency and eternal nature of God and man.

As Christ lamented:

"O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not! (Matthew 23:37).

I believe He sincerely loved those people, but there were limits to that love, as "they would not".

Forgive me, but this sounds like the "saved by grace" argument but with different terms.

Come on, you can't have it both ways. Either it's yes or no.

In a way, it can be both.

[Lamanite]

So please explain. Why do you disagree with him? Because "In my heart and mind God's love is unchanging and drawn out and extended to us always and forever, despite our actions, thoughts, behaviors etc."

As Elder Nelson stated (quoting the Book of Mormon)

Now I know you have read this before, so I'm not sure how you can disagree. Do you believe the Book of Mormon?

BTW, my thinking has not been "done for me" as you suggest, but my thoughts are reaffirmed through scripture and prophetic counsel.

Simply put, divine love is unconditional. Blessings, salvation, and exaltation are conditional. It seems pretty easy. Moreover, my statements above are in complete harmony with the BoM and our doctrinal traditions. Please to prove with the Standard works how they are in conflict with our core beliefs and I will re-evaluate.

[SquarePeg48]

Well, that all sounds good but I am in agreement with Elder Nelson on this one. I think God's Love IS Conditional...

Otherwise...

1. Satan wouldn't have been kicked out along with 1/3 of God's children.

2. There would be no Judgment Day where the wicked (His children) are going to be punished

3. The Flood would have never happened

4. Laban would have kept his head on his shoulders

5. And I can think of a lot of war stories where men, women, children and animal were unceremoniously destroyed.

6. Korihor would have continued to be a motivational speaker

"... the Lord caused Korihor to become dumb (Alma 30: 6-60)...."

7. The thief on the cross would have joined the other one in Paradise...

8. The Egyptian wouldn't have been buried in the sand after Moses whacked him.

9. Cain would have been spared

10. All the first-born in the land of Egypt would have been spared

"And it came to pass, that at midnight the LORD smote all the firstborn in the land of Egypt, from the firstborn of Pharaoh that sat on his throne unto the firstborn of the captive that was in the dungeon; and all the firstborn of cattle."

Exodus 12:29

From my perspective, these are actually evidence of God's love being UNCONDITIONAL. As a parent, if I (weak human that I am) love my children, I impose consequences for their actions. God loves even more than I do...therefore, His ability to create consequences best suited for our growth is even greater. As a parent, I also may have to, on occasion, take a child out of the family setting for a time to get it together, and in an extreme case where the child may cause harm to others in the family (teenagers and drugs or violence comes to mind), because I love the child AND his/her siblings, it is an act of love to them and to those around them to remove them more permanently from the home. Satan rebelled; God's love means that he didn't stop loving Satan, but put consequences in place to protect the rest of us. Because God loved the people of Noah's time, He took them off the earth before they could do themselves or descendants further harm (assuming you believe in a global flood). And so it goes...the wicked are not loved less because God allows or provides a consequence or removal when they are harmful to the rest of the family!

[Ihearya]

I think your definition of love is messed up. God loves EVERYONE, with an intensity and depth that you cannot understand until you experience it. And even then, understanding it is questionable. God did NOT kick Satan out of Heaven because He loved Satan less after his rebellion than before. Same for all the other examples you give. Love is bigger, and more far-reaching than you apparently suppose.

HiJolly

I disagree. God doesn't love Satan. He DID.

[fatherofone]

God's love, is very condtional, many examples have been listed in this thread only to be summarily dismissed with excuses, which is always the case, but he will only reward you if you do exactly as he says...seems conditional to me

[Ihearya]

From my perspective, these are actually evidence of God's love being UNCONDITIONAL. As a parent, if I (weak human that I am) love my children, I impose consequences for their actions. God loves even more than I do...therefore, His ability to create consequences best suited for our growth is even greater. As a parent, I also may have to, on occasion, take a child out of the family setting for a time to get it together, and in an extreme case where the child may cause harm to others in the family (teenagers and drugs or violence comes to mind), because I love the child AND his/her siblings, it is an act of love to them and to those around them to remove them more permanently from the home. Satan rebelled; God's love means that he didn't stop loving Satan, but put consequences in place to protect the rest of us. Because God loved the people of Noah's time, He took them off the earth before they could do themselves or descendants further harm (assuming you believe in a global flood). And so it goes...the wicked are not loved less because God allows or provides a consequence or removal when they are harmful to the rest of the family!

By this logic, Hitler would have been taken much sooner...Why wasn't he?

[LifeOnaPlate]

I disagree. God doesn't love Satan. He DID.

CFR?

[SquarePeg48]

God's love, is very condtional, many examples have been listed in this thread only to be summarily dismissed with excuses, which is always the case, but he will only reward you if you do exactly as he says...seems conditional to me

This presumes reward = love. My own life has taught me that it is not so...thankfully for my well-being!

[Lamanite]

Well, that all sounds good but I am in agreement with Elder Nelson on this one. I think God's Love IS Conditional...

Otherwise...

1. Satan wouldn't have been kicked out along with 1/3 of God's children.

2. There would be no Judgment Day where the wicked (His children) are going to be punished

3. The Flood would have never happened

4. Laban would have kept his head on his shoulders

5. And I can think of a lot of war stories where men, women, children and animal were unceremoniously destroyed.

6. Korihor would have continued to be a motivational speaker

"... the Lord caused Korihor to become dumb (Alma 30: 6-60)...."

7. The thief on the cross would have joined the other one in Paradise...

8. The Egyptian wouldn't have been buried in the sand after Moses whacked him.

9. Cain would have been spared

10. All the first-born in the land of Egypt would have been spared

"And it came to pass, that at midnight the LORD smote all the firstborn in the land of Egypt, from the firstborn of Pharaoh that sat on his throne unto the firstborn of the captive that was in the dungeon; and all the firstborn of cattle."

Exodus 12:29

Just because God punishes his children or has allowed bad things to happen doesn't mean he doesn't love them one bit less.

I say again His love is unconditional. Whether you know it or not he loves you. Whether you are obedient or not he loves you. HE LOVES YOU! Please believe that no matter what you have done, are doing, or will do, He as a Perfect Parent loves you and all of us always and forever.

[fatherofone]

This presumes reward = love. My own life has taught me that it is not so...thankfully for my well-being!

exactly...don't keep commandments, no love...don't do this no love...aka salvation or whatever you want to call it

[Lamanite]

This presumes reward = love. My own life has taught me that it is not so...thankfully for my well-being!

BIG DITTO on this one!

[Ihearya]

God's love, is very condtional, many examples have been listed in this thread only to be summarily dismissed with excuses, which is always the case, but he will only reward you if you do exactly as he says...seems conditional to me

That's right. That's why Elder M. Nelson stated it is "conditional" and I agree with him. It is conditional on:

1. Repentance. Repent and you will feel the Love again.

2. Obedience

3. on the 10 commandments

and a few other things.

Yes, people tend to ignore the obvious. Who wants to believe that there is a condition on God's love?

[Lamanite]

That's right. That's why Elder M. Nelson stated it is "conditional" and I agree with him. It is conditional on:

1. Repentance. Repent and you will feel the Love again.

2. Obedience

3. on the 10 commandments

and a few other things.

Yes, people tend to ignore the obvious. Who wants to believe that there is a condition on God's love?

I can't tell if you're being intetionally obtuse? So let me make sure I understand you by asking a few questions.

Simply by not feeling loved= God doesn't love you.

Breaking the commandments means God stops loving you.

Repenting turns on the love again.

Let me know if I got that right.

[HiJolly]

I disagree. God doesn't love Satan. He DID.

Where on earth do you get that idea?

HiJolly

[SquarePeg48]

Joseph P. Wirthlin, October 1999General Conference:

Godâ??s love is complete and without limit for you and for all mankind. 4 He is perfectly just 5 and merciful. 6 He is perfectly kind 7 and understands your circumstances and condition. He knows you better than you know yourself.

Anthony D. Perkins of the 70- October 2006 General Conference:

Satan is the â??enemy to all righteousnessâ?;2 thus he plants doubts about the nature of the Godhead and our relationship with Them. Jesus Christ prophesied that in the last days even the very elect would be deceived.3 Consider three examples of how Lucifer is â??laying traps and snares to catch the holy ones of God.â?4

The snare of false inadequacy. A faithful young person feels unable to meet the expectations of others. At home and school, she is rarely praised and often criticized. The popular media tells her she is not beautiful enough or smart enough. Every day this righteous sister questions whether she is an individual worthy of Heavenly Fatherâ??s love, the Saviorâ??s atoning sacrifice, or the Spiritâ??s constant guidance.

The snare of exaggerated imperfection. An outstanding missionary feels incapable of meeting the expectations of God. In his mind, this worthy elder imagines a stern Heavenly Father bound to irrevocable justice, a Savior capable of cleansing othersâ?? transgressions but not this elderâ??s own, and a Holy Ghost unwilling to accompany an imperfect person.

The snare of needless guilt. A middle-aged woman is a devoted mother, a loving friend, a faithful Church servant, and a frequent temple patron. But in her heart, this sister cannot forgive herself of sins committed years ago that she has repented of and fully resolved with priesthood leaders. She doubts that her life will ever be acceptable to the Lord and has lost hope of eternal life in Heavenly Fatherâ??s presence.

If you have any thoughts and feelings similar to these good Saints, I invite you to become as a little child and feel again â??the great and wonderful love made manifest by the Father and the Son in the coming of the Redeemer into the world.â?

Neal A. Maxwell, October 2002 General COnference:

Therefore, we can be troubled on every side, but nothing can really separate us from the love of Christ (see 2 Cor. 4:8; Rom. 8:35â??39); worldly anxieties are not part of being â??anxiously engagedâ? (D&C 58:27). Even so, as Peter urged, we can and should cast our cares upon the Lord, because He surely cares for us! (see 1 Pet. 5:7). Oh, brothers and sisters, the awaiting emancipation of such trusting surrender!

And that's just the tip of the iceberg of declarations by God's apostles and prophets of the love God has for us without condition.

[HiJolly]

God's love, is very condtional, many examples have been listed in this thread only to be summarily dismissed with excuses, which is always the case, but he will only reward you if you do exactly as he says...seems conditional to me

The reward, while indeed having a connection to love, is not given nor taken away based on any fluctuation of that love. God's love is eternal and unchanging.

HiJolly

By this logic, Hitler would have been taken much sooner...Why wasn't he?

Why do you think that is logical?

HiJolly

[RDC]

Simply put, divine love is unconditional. Blessings, salvation, and exaltation are conditional. It seems pretty easy. Moreover, my statements above are in complete harmony with the BoM and our doctrinal traditions. Please to prove with the Standard works how they are in conflict with our core beliefs and I will re-evaluate.

It seems to me that we are quibbling over the definition of love in this thread. In keeping with the theme of Elder Nelson's article:

"On the other hand, many verses affirm that the higher levels of love the Father and the Son feel for each of usâ??and certain divine blessings stemming from that loveâ??are conditional."

This suggests that the context in which Elder Nelson is referring is an amalgamation of sorts of two definitions - "love and blessings (maybe how that love is exhibited)". But that the level of "love" that they have for us is dependent upon our obedience to their laws, which the scriptures validate, so far as this definition is being used.

While I agree that God loves us all, it is apparent in the scriptures that he loves those who are obedient more, or at least on a different level.

Can you see that with this defition, citing the scriptures as proof, that God's love can be expressed at different levels?

[Ihearya]

Just because God punishes his children or has allowed bad things to happen doesn't mean he doesn't love them one bit less.

I say again His love is unconditional. Whether you know it or not he loves you. Whether you are obedient or not he loves you. HE LOVES YOU! Please believe that no matter what you have done, are doing, or will do, He as a Perfect Parent loves you and all of us always and forever.

I disagree again. if that was the case, the deaths of the disobedient would have been sweet, as in their sleep, or natural, without the pain of the transition from here to the eternal world. Examples of painful deaths:

1. "And the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed them up, and their houses, and all the men that appertained unto Korah, and all their goods. They, and all that appertained to them, went down alive into the pit, and the earth closed upon them: and they perished from among the congregation. And all Israel that were round about them fled at the cry of them: for they said, Lest the earth swallow us up also. And there came out a fire from the LORD, and consumed the two hundred and fifty men that offered incense." (Numbers 16:32-35)

2. "So the LORD sent pestilence upon Israel: and there fell of Israel seventy thousand men." (I Chronicles 21:14)

3. "Behold, these caused the children of Israel, through the counsel of Balaam, to commit trespass against the LORD in the matter of Peor, and there was a plague among the congregation of the LORD. Now therefore kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman that hath known man by lying with him. But all the women children, that have not known a man by lying with him, keep alive for yourselves." (Numbers 31:16-18)

4."And Israel joined himself unto Baalpeor: and the anger of the LORD was kindled against Israel. And the LORD said unto Moses, 'Take all the heads of the people and hang them up before the LORD against the sun, that the fierce anger of the LORD may be turned away from Israel.'" (Numbers 25:3-4)

OK, that's probably enough. As you can see, love is conditional on strict obedience to God's laws, if you go by the Bible. If you love your children who misbehave, do you make sure they get severely punished to the level of what's described above? I think not.

[SquarePeg48]

I disagree again. if that was the case, the deaths of the disobedient would have been sweet, as in their sleep, or natural, without the pain of the transition from here to the eternal world. Examples of painful deaths:

1. "And the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed them up, and their houses, and all the men that appertained unto Korah, and all their goods. They, and all that appertained to them, went down alive into the pit, and the earth closed upon them: and they perished from among the congregation. And all Israel that were round about them fled at the cry of them: for they said, Lest the earth swallow us up also. And there came out a fire from the LORD, and consumed the two hundred and fifty men that offered incense." (Numbers 16:32-35)

2. "So the LORD sent pestilence upon Israel: and there fell of Israel seventy thousand men." (I Chronicles 21:14)

3. "Behold, these caused the children of Israel, through the counsel of Balaam, to commit trespass against the LORD in the matter of Peor, and there was a plague among the congregation of the LORD. Now therefore kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman that hath known man by lying with him. But all the women children, that have not known a man by lying with him, keep alive for yourselves." (Numbers 31:16-18)

4."And Israel joined himself unto Baalpeor: and the anger of the LORD was kindled against Israel. And the LORD said unto Moses, 'Take all the heads of the people and hang them up before the LORD against the sun, that the fierce anger of the LORD may be turned away from Israel.'" (Numbers 25:3-4)

OK, that's probably enough. As you can see, love is conditional on strict obedience to God's laws, if you go by the Bible. If you love your children who misbehave, do you make sure they get severely punished to the level of what's described above? I think not.

The mortal perspective is hardly the one that defines love. I have a son who passed away after years of physical suffering due to his many handicaps. Yet there is no doubt that God loved him. What I learned is that when one leaves this limited field of understanding, what seemed such awful suffering in this life seem as a passing dream, leaving no scar or pain behind...this is my own personal "revelation" as I tried to reconcile God's love with the suffering of an innocent child. Truly, eternity is not so limited.

Would you then say Elder Nelson was saying that innocent people who suffer are being unloved by God for some reason?

[fatherofone]

It seems to me that we are quibbling over the definition of love in this thread. In keeping with the theme of Elder Nelson's article:

This suggests that the context in which Elder Nelson is referring is an amalgamation of sorts of two definitions - "love and blessings (maybe how that love is exhibited)". But that the level of "love" that they have for us is dependent upon our obedience to their laws, which the scriptures validate, so far as this definition is being used.

While I agree that God loves us all, it is apparent in the scriptures that he loves those who are obedient more, or at least on a different level.

Can you see that with this defition, citing the scriptures as proof, that God's love can be expressed at different levels?

different levels means conditional

[Ihearya]

Where on earth do you get that idea?

HiJolly

Simple: Matthew 6:24

24 No man can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon.

Do you think the Lord would have said this if it wasn't God's principle?

[Lamanite]

I disagree again. if that was the case, the deaths of the disobedient would have been sweet, as in their sleep, or natural, without the pain of the transition from here to the eternal world. Examples of painful deaths:

1. "And the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed them up, and their houses, and all the men that appertained unto Korah, and all their goods. They, and all that appertained to them, went down alive into the pit, and the earth closed upon them: and they perished from among the congregation. And all Israel that were round about them fled at the cry of them: for they said, Lest the earth swallow us up also. And there came out a fire from the LORD, and consumed the two hundred and fifty men that offered incense." (Numbers 16:32-35)

2. "So the LORD sent pestilence upon Israel: and there fell of Israel seventy thousand men." (I Chronicles 21:14)

3. "Behold, these caused the children of Israel, through the counsel of Balaam, to commit trespass against the LORD in the matter of Peor, and there was a plague among the congregation of the LORD. Now therefore kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman that hath known man by lying with him. But all the women children, that have not known a man by lying with him, keep alive for yourselves." (Numbers 31:16-18)

4."And Israel joined himself unto Baalpeor: and the anger of the LORD was kindled against Israel. And the LORD said unto Moses, 'Take all the heads of the people and hang them up before the LORD against the sun, that the fierce anger of the LORD may be turned away from Israel.'" (Numbers 25:3-4)

OK, that's probably enough. As you can see, love is conditional on strict obedience to God's laws, if you go by the Bible. If you love your children who misbehave, do you make sure they get severely punished to the level of what's described above? I think not.

I noticed you glossed over squarepeg's post. Any thoughts?

[HiJolly]

Simple: Matthew 6:24

24 No man can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon.

Do you think the Lord would have said this if it wasn't God's principle?

More philosophies of men, mingled... <sigh>

He wasn't speaking of God's love or hate, was He? Was Christ teaching a lesson here? What was the point? I think you're grasping. You apparently don't understand divine love. You can argue from here 'til judgement day, and it won't help. God is Love.

HiJolly