Jaredite Steel?

[Zakuska]

Experts' joy over Iron Age relics

From icCoventry.co.uk: Experts' joy over Iron Age relics.

An important archaeological discovery has led experts to believe Ryton-on-Dunsmore was home to a high-ranking Iron Age family more than 2,000 years ago.

Scientists have found the first-ever complete example of an Iron Age kiln, which they believe a prehistoric family may have used to turn smelt iron into tools or jewellery.

The clay oven was unearthed on the site of a

[peeps]

This discovery in Britan was intresting.

http://www.mirabilis.ca/archives/cat_histo...rchaeology.html

Why?

[Zakuska]

This was even More intresting...

Lime Kilns around the world.

A lime kiln is a kiln used to produce quicklime by the calcination of limestone (calcium carbonate). The chemical equation for this reaction is:

CaCO3 + heat → CaO + CO2

This reaction takes place at 900

[spinner]

The problem is... we need to remove the super natural... and look at it from a totally natural point of view. Having it dressed up in the supernatural when it was written down.

From the Simpsons--at a fantasy / science fiction convention Lucy Lawless, who plays Xena Princess Warrior, is answering fan questions:

Frink: Yes, over here, n'hey, n'hey. In episode BF12, you were battling barbarians while riding a winged Appaloosa, yet in the very next scene, my dear, you're clearly atop a winged Arabian. Please do explain it.

Lucy Lawless: Ah, yeah, well, whenever you notice something like that, a wizard did it.

Frink: I see, all right, yes, but in episode AG4 --

Lucy Lawless: Wizard.

Frink: [under breath] Aw, for glaven out loud

Seriously, though, the problem with saying 'divine help' here is that it's not presented in the BofM as an instance where divine help is given. It is not presented as a miracle or as even something particularly noteworthy (unlike, say, the way the Lord's hands touched the stones to give light to Brother of Jared's barges).

To say divine help whenever there is something difficult to explain in an allegedly historical account seems like a bit of a cop-out.

[Ron Beron]

Metallurgy is certainly not one of my strong points, but... I have been led to understand that steel was available from the earliest periods of human history in the form of meteorite steel. King Tutankhamen had a steel blade with him when he buried that dates to around 1400 BC.

[John Larsen]

Well, we are talking about a religious text, after all.

You seem to be implying that just because it is a religious text, its claims cannot be examined.

I tend to believe that because of its claims of provenance, it should be held to a higher standard. The bible doesn't claim the same high standards the BoM does.

John

[Anijen]

You seem to be implying that just because it is a religious text, its claims cannot be examined.

I tend to believe that because of its claims of provenance, it should be held to a higher standard. The bible doesn't claim the same high standards the BoM does.

John

Please clarify this. Use examples of the biblical standard and an example of a BoM standard thanks.

[Zakuska]

You seem to be implying that just because it is a religious text, its claims cannot be examined.

I tend to believe that because of its claims of provenance, it should be held to a higher standard. The bible doesn't claim the same high standards the BoM does.

John

Those on the left do claim it for it. Yet hold it at a lower standard than they do the BOM.

[livy111us]

Here is my hit and run:

[John Williams]

Runtu,

Obviously you are relying on Joseph Smith's translation of the passage. Since he was imitating the KJV, which is full of errors, Joseph included lots of errors in the BoM. The passage would be better translated,

Ether 7: 9 Wherefore, he came to the hill Ephraim, and he did [take] molten [rock] out of the hill, and made swords out of steel [obsidian] for those whom he had drawn away with him; and after he had armed them with swords he returned to the city Nehor, and gave battle unto his brother Corihor, by which means he obtained the kingdom and restored it unto his father Kib.

OK, I admit it. I'm licked.

And the name is John. Don't you forget it.

[John Williams]

The self-same problem exists with the Bible. You could talk all day about how the miracles recounted therein are not possible in terms of naturalistic explanations. But the faithful accept that with God, all things are possible.

Good heavens, Scott. I hope you're not serious here. The text is pretty straightforward: Shule was angry and made swords to overthrow the king. No divine intervention is mentioned at all; it isn't presented as a miracle. I'm just shaking my head over this one. I suppose one could explain every anachronism as a miracle: God miraculously provided horses and chariots just when Lamoni needed them.

[John Williams]

Metallurgy is certainly not one of my strong points, but... I have been led to understand that steel was available from the earliest periods of human history in the form of meteorite steel. King Tutankhamen had a steel blade with him when he buried that dates to around 1400 BC.

Again, the anachronism is going to a hill and smelting steel. The use of polished meteorite "steel" is well known, but there's no evidence of metallurgy (smelting). As the OP mentioned, the Mesoamericans used Stone Age technology.

[John Larsen]

Please clarify this. Use examples of the biblical standard and an example of a BoM standard thanks.

The Book of Mormon was written by Mormon, handed to his son Moroni, who gave it to Joseph Smith.

All except the most fundamentalist believers of the bible would acknowledge its varied eclectic origins, its rewrites, translations, transcription and other possible errors. When the KJV claims steel when none existed, we can find good cause that it was a translation error and it should have been "bronze". However, with the Book of Mormon, there is no good cause for this. Joseph Smith was translating directly into English. He used such clarity of translation to use subtle terms like "adieu". Why would he translate the Reformed Egyptian term for bronze into steel when both of these words were known to Joseph.

John

[Chris Smith]

OK, I admit it. I'm licked.

You and your little dog, too!

Again, the anachronism is going to a hill and smelting steel.

Don't be ridiculous. The book of Mormon doesn't say anything about smelting. It refers to molting. There's a difference. Molting has been going on in Mesoamerica since the beginning of time, and your refusal to acknowledge this proves you're just a snake-in-the-grass.

[Bond...James Bond]

I'm just shaking my head over this one. I suppose one could explain every anachronism as a miracle: God miraculously provided horses and chariots just when Lamoni needed them.

And then took them back again...makes Acme's Disappearing Reappearing ink (made famous in Who Framed Roger Rabbit?) look like child's play don't it?

[Zakuska]

OK, I admit it. I'm licked.

And the name is John. Don't you forget it.

So... how did he taste California Kid?

[Chris Smith]

So... how did he taste California Kid?

A lot better than zakuska does, that's for sure!

[maupayman]

A lot better than zakuska does, that's for sure!

What is Zakuska anyways?

[Bond...James Bond]

What is Zakuska anyways?

(Semi) Liquid Satanism. aka Satan's Sauce, Satan's Secret Sauce, or La Salsa Diablo.

[Flyonthewall]

I find this whole thread fascinating. Just last week I watched a program on the History channel about technology ancient peoples had in the east(middle east), centuries before they were used in the west - Water wheels, water pumping devices, hand held rockets, and even ship to ship torpedos. (please don't pelt me with rotten tomatoes if the History channel isn't considered any better that wikipedia).

What it tells me, is that science has had to do a lot of back-peddaling on things it has held as truth, when contradictory evidence shows up.

Just because science has no evidence of BoM claims now, does not mean it will never have evidence. It sounds like evidence is just on the horizon though.

[Bond...James Bond]

It sounds like evidence is just on the horizon though.

Don't hold your breath.

[John Williams]

I find this whole thread fascinating. Just last week I watched a program on the History channel about technology ancient peoples had in the east(middle east), centuries before they were used in the west - Water wheels, water pumping devices, hand held rockets, and even ship to ship torpedos. (please don't pelt me with rotten tomatoes if the History channel isn't considered any better that wikipedia).

What it tells me, is that science has had to do a lot of back-peddaling on things it has held as truth, when contradictory evidence shows up.

Just because science has no evidence of BoM claims now, does not mean it will never have evidence. It sounds like evidence is just on the horizon though.

I'm just going on probabilities. The probability that Mesoamericans would have used stone age tools and weapons (which we know they did), although they had the metallurgical sophistication to make steel swords, is highly unlikely. Coupled with the utter lack of evidence of smelting, it's a safe bet that there wasn't any metallurgy going on.

But as you said, anything's possible. I don't, however, agree that evidence is just on the horizon.

[Flyonthewall]

Don't hold your breath.

Well, as with any horizon, it can be deceptively distant, but it still is interesting

[Zakuska]

Lets see John... Chitzen Itza built 500 years before the Spanish came which has a pre columlbian horse inscribed on the temple wall... Archeologists estimate that we have only excvated 5% of whats out there and you think the odds are against us of finding anything?

A Diffusionist Rebuttal

THE material to which Kelley refers is not only confounding but also compelling. It ranges from small stones inscribed with ancient Semitic scripts, such as the Tennessee Bat Creek Stone and the West Virginia Grave Creek Stone, to the Phoenician-inscribed Paraiba Stone, found (and then lost)in the nineteenth century in Brazil, to Japanese-style pottery shards in Ecuador, to the "melanotic" chicken, a genetically unique strain indigenous to Southeast Asia but found in Mesoamerica as well. If Stephen Williams's Fantastic Archaeology gives the impression that such things are no more than a random series of strange delusions, that impression is robustly countered by the laborious research of John Sorenson and Martin Raish. Sorenson, an emeritus professor of anthropology at Brigham Young University, who also holds degrees in archaeology and meteorology, has published extensively on the topic of transoceanic contact with the Americas "before the Recognized Discoveries." Concerning Barry Fell's research, he says he is "appreciative of the enterprise but critical of the methods, logic, and resulting interpretations." Raish holds a Ph.D. in art history; he also has a master's in library and information sciences, and is an instructional librarian at Brigham Young University. It is perhaps the latter expertise on which he and Sorenson drew most heavily for the herculean task of collating, summarizing, and indexing diffusion-related texts.

Their 1,200-page, two-volume Pre-Columbian Contact With the Americas Across the Oceans is an annotated bibliography of more than 5,100 books, articles, dissertations, and presentations regarding the (mostly) serious scholarship devoted to matters diffusionist, pro and con. Originally published in 1990, by Research Press, of Provo, Utah, it was substantially revised and amplified in 1996. It is either a treasure trove or a refuse heap of pre-Columbian conundrums, depending on one's perspective.

There are, for example, citations of the studies of Carl Johannessen, a professor emeritus of geography at the University of Oregon, which analyze the delicately rendered carvings that look like maize -- a crop known to be indigenous to the Western Hemisphere -- in the Karnataka temple sculptures. There are citations of painstaking linguistic evaluations by Richard Nielsen, a Houston-based engineer, of the inscriptions on the Kensington Rune Stone, in Minnesota. On what looks like a rough-hewn headstone are about sixty words (and some numerals) in the distinctive runic alphabet of medieval Scandinavia. They purportedly chronicle a bloody attack on a group of Swedish and Norwegian adventurers that is unmistakably dated in runes: "Year 1362." Williams has dismissed the Kensington Stone as an obvious forgery because of amateurish "mistakes" in runic orthography. However, as Sorenson and Raish point out, Nielsen "brings forward extensive evidence that what critics have called 'aberrant' features in this text are not so. They were in fact found in the old south Norwegian province and dialect of Bohusl

[thesometimesaint]

Bond...James Bond:

I never was very good at holding my breath.

http://www.jefflindsay.com/LDSFAQ/FQ_metals.shtml