Another Point For The Book Of Mormon

[consiglieri]

In the first several chapters of the Book of Mormon, a number of trips are taken back and forth to Jerusalem.

I say "back and forth" because that is the normal way that English speakers would refer to it.

The Book of Mormon, however, uses a different phrase. Consistently, whenever the group goes "back" to Jerusalem, the Book of Mormon terms it as going "up to Jerusalem."

Whenever the group goes "away" from Jerusalem, the Book of Mormon terms it as going "down from Jerusalem."

My understanding is that this terminology reflects the ancient Jewish concept of Jerusalem being on Mount Zion, and hence above any other location--hence one only goes "up" to Jerusalem; and when departing Mount Zion, one only goes "down" from Jerusalem.

Here we have yet another instance in the Book of Mormon where language is used that departs from customary English while at the same time comporting with customary Hebrew usage.

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

[krose]

Interesting point. So what's the score so far (points for vs. points against)?

[consiglieri]

Interesting point. So what's the score so far (points for vs. points against)?

Good question! I don't know the answer to that, and am not sure it is as easily quantifiable as a quidditch match.

But I do think that extra points should be awarded where the Book of Mormon uses things not normal for English that pop up as normal in Hebrew.

Sort of like catching the snitch.

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

[poulsenll]

In the first several chapters of the Book of Mormon, a number of trips are taken back and forth to Jerusalem.

I say "back and forth" because that is the normal way that English speakers would refer to it.

The Book of Mormon, however, uses a different phrase. Consistently, whenever the group goes "back" to Jerusalem, the Book of Mormon terms it as going "up to Jerusalem."

Whenever the group goes "away" from Jerusalem, the Book of Mormon terms it as going "down from Jerusalem."

My understanding is that this terminology reflects the ancient Jewish concept of Jerusalem being on Mount Zion, and hence above any other location--hence one only goes "up" to Jerusalem; and when departing Mount Zion, one only goes "down" from Jerusalem.

Here we have yet another instance in the Book of Mormon where language is used that departs from customary English while at the same time comporting with customary Hebrew usage.

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

Not only that, but Jerusalem is 2468 feet above sea level and the Red Sea coast is at sea level. This use of up and down is consistant throughout the Book of Mormon. Even if we dont know the exact location of Zarahemla and the land of Nehi, the text always reports that they went up to Nephi and down to Zarahemla. This usage is also true of other areas where back and forth travel between two locations is reported. It is amazing that a young man from New York would maintain such consistancy without once dropping in a "back and forth", a term more common in describing repetitive travel between the same two locations.

Larry P

[bluebell]

It was also brought up in our sunday school class about nephi's use of the oath 'as the Lord liveth and as i live' concerning Zoram.

It's interesting that the BOM contains such hebraic oaths (oaths that many people in that region still use today) when the idea that a man could be completely and instantly convinced of his safety through the use of an 'i swear i won't hurt you' statement is not really a western concept that would have been common in Joseph's day.

[consiglieri]

Not only that, but Jerusalem is 2468 feet above sea level and the Red Sea coast is at sea level. This use of up and down is consistant throughout the Book of Mormon. Even if we dont know the exact location of Zarahemla and the land of Nehi, the text always reports that they went up to Nephi and down to Zarahemla. This usage is also true of other areas where back and forth travel between two locations is reported. It is amazing that a young man from New York would maintain such consistancy without once dropping in a "back and forth", a term more common in describing repetitive travel between the same two locations.

Larry P

Thank you for the geography lesson, Larry!

I agree that it is remarkable, especially when as I discuss it, I am inevitably led to use the words "back and forth."

"Up and down" is not something that I normally say in this context.

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

[Luigi]

In the first several chapters of the Book of Mormon, a number of trips are taken back and forth to Jerusalem.

I say "back and forth" because that is the normal way that English speakers would refer to it.

The Book of Mormon, however, uses a different phrase. Consistently, whenever the group goes "back" to Jerusalem, the Book of Mormon terms it as going "up to Jerusalem."

Whenever the group goes "away" from Jerusalem, the Book of Mormon terms it as going "down from Jerusalem."

My understanding is that this terminology reflects the ancient Jewish concept of Jerusalem being on Mount Zion, and hence above any other location--hence one only goes "up" to Jerusalem; and when departing Mount Zion, one only goes "down" from Jerusalem.

Here we have yet another instance in the Book of Mormon where language is used that departs from customary English while at the same time comporting with customary Hebrew usage.

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

In the English I speak 'up' is used for traveling North and 'down' for traveling South, which as I understand from the text was the approximate directions they would have been traveling.

[consiglieri]

In the English I speak 'up' is used for traveling North and 'down' for traveling South, which as I understand from the text was the approximate directions they would have been traveling.

Fair enough.

And yet, if I myself am talking about traveling south to Seattle, I might say I drove "down" to Seattle.

But if I forgot something and had to go back to Bellingham, I would probably say that I had to go . . . "back" to Bellingham.

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

[poulsenll]

Thank you for the geography lesson, Larry!

"Up and down" is not something that I normally say in this context.

--Consiglieri

That may be because you dont have to walk the entire distance between two locations at different elevations. If you did you would remember the difference. After all you are too young to remember when children had to walk five miles to school in the snow and it was uphill both ways.

Larry P

[AndyOne]

In my experience, up and down are used all the time to talk about going places - and often without regard to physical location. I wonder if this was common usage in early 19th C upstate NY. I think it's also worth a search of the KJV to see how common the expression "up to Jerusalem" is:

http://scriptures.lds.org/en/search?type=w...&sw=checked

[poulsenll]

In the English I speak 'up' is used for traveling North and 'down' for traveling South, which as I understand from the text was the approximate directions they would have been traveling.

If you dont know the location of the the land of Nephi and the land of Zarahemla, how do you know that they were traveling north and south. If you accept the LGT then they were traveling southeast and northwest not north and south. Besides not all locations in the BofM are north and south of each other.

Another point is that ancient cultures oriented their maps with east at the top rather than North. We use up for north because of the way we orient our maps in the modern world.

Larry P

[AndyOne]

And here are the results for "down from Jerusalem":

http://scriptures.lds.org/en/search?type=w...hecked&bw=1

[LifeOnaPlate]

Not only that, but Jerusalem is 2468 feet above sea level and the Red Sea coast is at sea level. This use of up and down is consistant throughout the Book of Mormon. Even if we dont know the exact location of Zarahemla and the land of Nehi, the text always reports that they went up to Nephi and down to Zarahemla. This usage is also true of other areas where back and forth travel between two locations is reported. It is amazing that a young man from New York would maintain such consistancy without once dropping in a "back and forth", a term more common in describing repetitive travel between the same two locations.

Larry P

Excellent stuff. Thanks larry and consicula.

[AndyOne]

It is amazing that a young man from New York would maintain such consistancy without once dropping in a "back and forth", a term more common in describing repetitive travel between the same two locations.

Larry P

But he did ...

http://scriptures.lds.org/en/search?type=w...&sw=checked

http://scriptures.lds.org/en/search?type=w...hecked&bw=1

[LifeOnaPlate]

But he did ...

http://scriptures.lds.org/en/search?type=w...&sw=checked

http://scriptures.lds.org/en/search?type=w...hecked&bw=1

I have become interested in the geography of the text of the Book of Mormon recently, and note the references of "up" and "down" as an interesting way to develop a consistent internal map of the BoM. Have you read any publications on the subject?

[poulsenll]

But he did ...

http://scriptures.lds.org/en/search?type=w...&sw=checked

http://scriptures.lds.org/en/search?type=w...hecked&bw=1

Thanks Andy.

In all the time I have thought about BofM geography, I never looked at the words "back" and "forth" in relation to the geography. However, a quick look at your finds suggests that based on the LGT these instances refer to travel between locations at similar elavations. It is very interesting however, that the text does use these terms to indicate directions and makes the over all consistancy even more surprising.

Thanks again, I will have to incorporate this into my thinking. Unless old age takes over and I forget.

Larry P

[AndyOne]

Thanks Andy.

In all the time I have thought about BofM geography, I never looked at the words "back" and "forth" in relation to the geography. However, a quick look at your finds suggests that based on the LGT these instances refer to travel between locations at similar elavations. It is very interesting however, that the text does use these terms to indicate directions and makes the over all consistancy even more surprising.

Thanks again, I will have to incorporate this into my thinking. Unless old age takes over and I forget.

Larry P

I haven't done an exhaustive search, but think that maybe there is less to this than the OP and your comment about "no slips" would suggest. Take a look at Alma 27, for example, where verse 5 has the "down to" formulation and verse 20 has the "back to" formulation, both referring to the Land of Zarahemla.

[LifeOnaPlate]

I haven't done an exhaustive search, but think that maybe there is less to this than the OP and your comment about "no slips" would suggest. Take a look at Alma 27, for example, where verse 5 has the "down to" formulation and verse 20 has the "back to" formulation, both referring to the Land of Zarahemla.

It seems these are referring to trips to Zarahemla from 2 different locations.

[consiglieri]

But he did ...

http://scriptures.lds.org/en/search?type=w...&sw=checked

http://scriptures.lds.org/en/search?type=w...hecked&bw=1

Thanks for taking the time to do the search and post the results.

I see no reference of "back" to Jerusalem, so I am thinking I am safe with saying the Book of Mormon is consistent with its usage of "up."

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

[poulsenll]

It seems these are referring to trips to Zarahemla from 2 different locations.

Yes in verse 15 Ammon says he is going into the land Of Zarahemla.

Alma 27

12 Get this people aout of this land, that they perish not; for Satan has great hold on the hearts of the Amalekites, who do stir up the Lamanites to anger against their brethren to slay them; therefore get thee out of this land; and blessed are this people in this generation, for I will bpreserve them.

13 And now it came to pass that Ammon went and told the king all the words which the Lord had said unto him.

14 And they gathered together all their people, yea, all the people of the Lord, and did gather together all their flocks and herds, and departed out of the land, and came into the wilderness which divided the land of Nephi from the land of Zarahemla, and came over near the borders of the land.

15 And it came to pass that Ammon said unto them: Behold, I and my brethren will go forth into the land of Zarahemla, and ye shall remain here until we return; and we will atry the hearts of our brethren, whether they will that ye shall come into their land.

16 And it came to pass that as Ammon was going forth into the land, that he and his brethren met Alma, over in the aplace of which has been spoken; and behold, this was a joyful meeting.

They had left the land of the Lamanites, not the land of Nephi and passed over the wilderness that seperated the Lamanite lands from the Nephite lands, stopping at the border to await the decision of the Nephite leaders about where they could settle. It is there where they meet with Alma and then return back to the city of Zarahemla. No Up or Down involved.

Larry P

[LifeOnaPlate]

And it precisely matches the internal geography as explained before. Nice.

[Gervin]

In the English I speak 'up' is used for traveling North and 'down' for traveling South, which as I understand from the text was the approximate directions they would have been traveling.

Going "up" to Jerusalem is a common descriptor in the Bible. I believe there may also be a reference to going "up" to Nazareth. The Hebrew for "up" generally means ascension, or going up in elevation. In geographical terms, up doesn't mean north; it means going in the direction of the headwaters. So, if you're in Virginia, you go "down" the Shenandoah valley by going "north" to the Potomac. Likewise, to trace the source of the Shenandoah River one goes "up", or south, to the headwaters - ascending in elevation.

[Mighty Curelom]

Matthew 20:18 KJV

Behold, we go up to Jerusalem; and the Son of man shall be betrayed unto the chief priests and unto the scribes, and they shall condemn him to death.

Mark 3:22 KJV

And the scribes which came down from Jerusalem said, He hath Beelzebub, and by the prince of the devils casteth he out devils.

It's either a hit indicating Hebraic origin, or a hit indicating KJV origin. I'm guessing it's the latter.

[LifeOnaPlate]

Matthew 20:18 KJV

Behold, we go up to Jerusalem; and the Son of man shall be betrayed unto the chief priests and unto the scribes, and they shall condemn him to death.

Mark 3:22 KJV

And the scribes which came down from Jerusalem said, He hath Beelzebub, and by the prince of the devils casteth he out devils.

It's either a hit indicating Hebraic origin, or a hit indicating KJV origin. I'm guessing it's the latter.

But what about the internal consistency in the Book of Mormon?

[poulsenll]

But what about the internal consistency in the Book of Mormon?

Yes, among other things Joseph Smith was an avid student of geography and was able to create a geographical background for the BofM that not only agreed with the way the Hebrews described travel in the Bible but fits with surprising consistency a geographical location in the old world and at least one geographical setting in the New world.

Call it what you want but dependence on the KJV does not explain it.

Larry P