"i've Come To The Conclusion That The Church Is Not True!"

[Tchild2]

The real challenge, though, is that for faithful LDS the notion of happiness is tied to the eternities, and while we may think it possible, and even perhaps evident, that some non-members have achieved as much happiness as some members in this life, that is less likely, if not unlikely, in the eternities, though well just have to wait and see. ;-)

Is that acceptible to you?

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

I understand what you are saying Wade. As a once very active and believing member, I also held to the ideas of a greater happiness that awaited in the eternities. That is probably why the "endure to the end" concept is taught and reaffirmed so often in LDS teachings.

Believe it or not, I believe (hope) that we will exist on (although I do not know it as a certainty). Part of my paradigm shift is that ALL of us, every last human from the most deranged to the most saintly, will have equal access to the highest potential (at-one-ment) that exists as a potential state of awareness. Thus, our happiness is already assured for all human beings that choose so, completely, totally and unequivocally with no one left out.

For me that beats Mormonism hands down and provides more hope and happiness than the latter that was laden with conditions and a sort of elitist favoritism.

[jadams_4242]

Interesting thoughts...thank you. I like the term "paradigm shift," and offer a different view. Another possible paradigm shift may come when events in one's life creates logical conflict. The person may feel strongly about his/her spiritual witness, but is it possible that the interpretation of what it meant was not true? IOW, one may feel strongly that a particular story gives enlightenment and an intense feeling of love and compassion for others. Is it possible the story, thoughts, and prayers are all very positive events for the person, and because the person was taught/instructed that the feeling meant something more than that, he perceived it into his preconceived paradigm to be true?

In my life I've seen and experienced miraculous spiritual phenomena in Mormonism, Buddhism, and Secular humanism. Each of them have been extremely positive and enlightening. I don't doubt any of them. So my paradigm shift came when I came to believe all people could experience deep spiritual experiences that were no more or less powerful or witnessing than what was/is experienced in Mormonism.

Agreed. Consider the possibility that they mean something different than what you've been taught.

I as well have experianced spiritual events {i wont call them phenonama} from diferant organisational beleifs and events, The differance from what you are saying that we were "taught" to beleive the experiance actually is, Is that the experiances i have felt and been overwhelmed with, {good and bad} Have all been totally differentiated from one another. sure catholic or born again e.t.c.... do experiance some kind of something, but i would not even come close to saying these experiances are in comparison or real spirit as in the L.D.S temple or anything as such. the so called spiritual phenonama you speak of is ALWAYS discernably differant to me, definately differant, and not something i have been taught. I know you do not have much to beleive in testamonies of L/D.S {because you claim we have been taught} But i do have one that is much more powerfull than you understand. So in esscence i must disagree with yer analogy of people having experiances of somethimng they have been taught to know what it is.

Maybe this was the case with yourself? But it is not the case with myself or many others i know.

[Son]

The real challenge, though, is that for faithful LDS the notion of happiness is tied to the eternities, and while we may think it possible, and even perhaps evident, that some non-members have achieved as much happiness as some members in this life, that is less likely, if not unlikely, in the eternities, though well just have to wait and see. ;-)

When I attended the CoJCoLDS it was a sad discovery to me, to see that the members held Happiness and Joy in the far off.

When what i have learned in life and read in the scriptures that teach joy is of the Saints and none but they can "Put it On", as it is something that we take upon us.

Why is joy, perfection, happiness etc.... put in the far off.

Hebrews speaks of some of the Prophets even putting the promises in the far off.

This is the error of man, and not the teaching of God.

Put on Joy NOW, Put on immortallity NOW. All things are possible now, God has not put a pause button on us, we are able to receive a fullness now, and receive the fullness of His promises if we ask and seek for them. this is a growth process meant for this sphere of education. If it is put in the far off, or after this time, then we will have missed out on a once in a lifetime opportunity.

son

[jadams_4242]

When I attended the CoJCoLDS it was a sad discovery to me, to see that the members held Happiness and Joy in the far off.

When what i have learned in life and read in the scriptures that teach joy is of the Saints and none but they can "Put it On", as it is something that we take upon us.

Why is joy, perfection, happiness etc.... put in the far off.

Hebrews speaks of some of the Prophets even putting the promises in the far off.

This is the error of man, and not the teaching of God.

Put on Joy NOW, Put on immortallity NOW. All things are possible now, God has not put a pause button on us, we are able to receive a fullness now, and receive the fullness of His promises if we ask and seek for them. this is a growth process meant for this sphere of education. If it is put in the far off, or after this time, then we will have missed out on a once in a lifetime opportunity.

son

Oh were all going for sure. but how many with our mortal loved ones? I know the lord put us all hear with companionship, children and wonderfull marveolous, unbridled love for a purpose, this family love is not for this earth only. if this were true then why did he not make us all male or female or without children. Our family relationships have reason And purpose. There is no doubt about this.

[juliann]

I'm so glad! I actually really love discussing my conviction on this issue, but don't get many opportunities since it's a bit unorthodox. If you really start to think about the implications of the Plan of Salvation, it's the only way the details make sense. I believe that we're all going to get there through Christ, just some of us faster than others and the faster we get on track the less suffering we endure and the more happiness we enjoy.

I have a slightly different take. I think there will be those who will not want what we think of as "godhood". After all, it is a job. I tend to think of it as signing up to be an eternal janitor which is why there is the emphasis on service and charity above all else. I think the other kingdoms will be more akin to what we traditionally think of as "heaven". And I don't think they should be seen as a punishment.

[David Bokovoy]

I have a slightly different take. I think there will be those who will not want what we think of as "godhood". After all, it is a job. I tend to think of it as signing up to be an eternal janitor which is why there is the emphasis on service and charity above all else. I think the other kingdoms will be more akin to what we traditionally think of as "heaven". And I don't think they should be seen as a punishment.

Interesting. Well, if you're right, I think I'll skip out on the godhood assignment. I hate administrating programs and would rather leave leadership responsibilities to someone else. I'd just as soon sit on the clouds pontificating while strumming some sort of stringed instrument. In fact, throw in a few waves with a carne asada burrito and that's pretty much my idea of heaven on earth.

[wenglund]

I understand what you are saying Wade. As a once very active and believing member, I also held to the ideas of a greater happiness that awaited in the eternities. That is probably why the "endure to the end" concept is taught and reaffirmed so often in LDS teachings.

Believe it or not, I believe (hope) that we will exist on (although I do not know it as a certainty). Part of my paradigm shift is that ALL of us, every last human from the most deranged to the most saintly, will have equal access to the highest potential (at-one-ment) that exists as a potential state of awareness. Thus, our happiness is already assured for all human beings that choose so, completely, totally and unequivocally with no one left out.

For me that beats Mormonism hands down and provides more hope and happiness than the latter that was laden with conditions and a sort of elitist favoritism.

Were that the case, and were that not an aspect of Mormonism (some may argue that it is), then you may be right. Again, we'll just have to wait and see.

In the interim, I am not sure it behoves anyone to let our personal happiness be affected by the beliefs of others regarding ultimate happiness. If someone thinks they have a belief system that beats mine in terms of happiness, then I am not the least bit bothered by that, and to me, my own happiness is not the least bit diminished. But, that may just be me.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[wenglund]

When I attended the CoJCoLDS it was a sad discovery to me, to see that the members held Happiness and Joy in the far off.

When what i have learned in life and read in the scriptures that teach joy is of the Saints and none but they can "Put it On", as it is something that we take upon us.

Why is joy, perfection, happiness etc.... put in the far off.

Hebrews speaks of some of the Prophets even putting the promises in the far off.

This is the error of man, and not the teaching of God.

Put on Joy NOW, Put on immortallity NOW. All things are possible now, God has not put a pause button on us, we are able to receive a fullness now, and receive the fullness of His promises if we ask and seek for them. this is a growth process meant for this sphere of education. If it is put in the far off, or after this time, then we will have missed out on a once in a lifetime opportunity.

son

That we LDS may see happiness tied to the eternities, does not mean that we see happiness as something that will only be experienced sometime off in the distant eternities. We believe we do experience happiness now, though given that we, for divine purposes (as we LDS understand things), live in the world, and not in heaven, and are thus subject to attendant sorrows and pain (so as to know joy and happiness), and given the vail of faith that separates us from the Father, we view ultimate happiness as only achievable once we are resurrected--i.e. fully take upon us the image and nature of Christ.

In other words, as we understand things, while we may entered the gate of salvation in this life, we are still on the path of salvation in this life, and won't achieve immortality and a fulness of joy until we reach the end of that path in the hereafter. If that sufficeth for God (and I believe it does), then that sufficeth for me. though I can respect that others may believe differently.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[BishopRic]

But you don't really know that.

Umm, then what does anybody "know." I would guess that most of us know our child's heart better than anybody else. Funny thing..my former wife completely agrees with me -- and she's as TBM as you get!

[juliann]

Umm, then what does anybody "know." I would guess that most of us know our child's heart better than anybody else. Funny thing..my former wife completely agrees with me -- and she's as TBM as you get!

But they wouldn't even know without the proverbial putting on the other person's shoes would they? I will gladly plead guilty to a bit of post-modernism but I don't think we can know what we can't experience. That is why spirituality is so critical to me...it is one of the few things that does not depend on the knowledge of others. They can't experience my spirituality and I can't transfer it..and vice versa. It gets back to all of our knowledge being socially constructed. We can only know what we know. If there is something out there that we don't know about we can't know about it no matter how real it is. So anyway, I don't think we can know what someone else would think or feel...but I can certainly believe it.

[Son]

Interesting. Well, if you're right, I think I'll skip out on the godhood assignment. I hate administrating programs and would rather leave leadership responsibilities to someone else. I'd just as soon sit on the clouds pontificating while strumming some sort of stringed instrument. In fact, throw in a few waves with a carne asada burrito and that's pretty much my idea of heaven on earth.

the meek inherit the earth....

[BishopRic]

If the Book of Mormon could be proven a fraud, I would still believe.

Now THERE'S a telling statement!

[jadams_4242]

But they wouldn't even know without the proverbial putting on the other person's shoes would they? I will gladly plead guilty to a bit of post-modernism but I don't think we can know what we can't experience. That is why spirituality is so critical to me...it is one of the few things that does not depend on the knowledge of others. They can't experience my spirituality and I can't transfer it..and vice versa. It gets back to all of our knowledge being socially constructed. We can only know what we know. If there is something out there that we don't know about we can't know about it no matter how real it is. So anyway, I don't think we can know what someone else would think or feel...but I can certainly believe it.

And i have always found the best way to try and understand what others "know" is to go see for myself, This is why my testimony of the L.D.S church keeps getting stronger every day, because i "Do" look into what others beleive. maybe not for the weak minded or spiritually struggling, but it definatly builds my strength. And i would advise anybody to do this as well. But its of the utmost importance to keep things in perspective and pray,pray.pray!

[Fly Fisherman]

Interesting. Well, if you're right, I think I'll skip out on the godhood assignment. I hate administrating programs and would rather leave leadership responsibilities to someone else. I'd just as soon sit on the clouds pontificating while strumming some sort of stringed instrument. In fact, throw in a few waves with a carne asada burrito and that's pretty much my idea of heaven on earth.

I often feel the same way. But I really think that throughout eternity, we will want to have all that God has. I think this is hinted at in the scripture,

Moro. 7: 46

46 Wherefore, my beloved brethren, if ye have not charity, ye are nothing, for charity never faileth. Wherefore, cleave unto charity, which is the greatest of all, for all things must failâ??

That is the scripture that brings me back again for wanting what God does and has. Because, sooner or later, your carna asada burrito will become boring, so to speak, and the only thing that will last will be charity. Not yet though, as I actually had two burritos today - one a California burrito, and a breakfast burrito.

[grego]

Two individuals seeking opposing answers could both get positive confirmation.

But I, one individual, couldn't. And I never met someone else who claimed it, in seriousness, and esp. that had the Spirit tell me so.

[Hammer]

When I attended the CoJCoLDS it was a sad discovery to me, to see that the members held Happiness and Joy in the far off.

When what i have learned in life and read in the scriptures that teach joy is of the Saints and none but they can "Put it On", as it is something that we take upon us.

Why is joy, perfection, happiness etc.... put in the far off.

Hebrews speaks of some of the Prophets even putting the promises in the far off.

This is the error of man, and not the teaching of God.

Put on Joy NOW, Put on immortallity NOW. All things are possible now, God has not put a pause button on us, we are able to receive a fullness now, and receive the fullness of His promises if we ask and seek for them. this is a growth process meant for this sphere of education. If it is put in the far off, or after this time, then we will have missed out on a once in a lifetime opportunity.

son

Some do. Some don't understand or haven't come to that level yet and then there is the will of the Father fore each and everyone at their level. It is wrong to push. Even for the weakest of Saints, is the church put forth.

[juliann]

Now THERE'S a telling statement!

Eh, not really.... after he explains it!

[BishopRic]

But i do have one that is much more powerfull than you understand.

Sorry, there is absolutely no way you can say you know my experiences or my "understanding." Your claim of such is the epitome of arrogance, IMO. Any person that claims to know another's experience loses all credibility.

[Hammer]

Sorry, there is absolutely no way you can say you know my experiences or my "understanding." Your claim of such is the epitome of arrogance, IMO. Any person that claims to know another's experience loses all credibility.

I don't know about that. When you can see beyond what a 5 year old can see, is it arrangance to say so?

[juliann]

I often feel the same way. But I really think that throughout eternity, we will want to have all that God has. I think this is hinted at in the scripture,

Well, I think we may want things...but that doesn't mean that we will be happy doing it or preparing for it. It would be a really cool thing to be a concert pianist. But do I really want to spend the day playing a piano to be one? Not really...it wouldn't be enjoyable at all. It would feel like punishment after awhile. I don't think we should consider someone as lesser because they want something different. I sort of see it like a meadow...it wouldn't be very interesting if all the flowers were the same, there has to be variety for it to be complete.

[BishopRic]

But they wouldn't even know without the proverbial putting on the other person's shoes would they?

Exactly. But who better to make a best guess than the parents? And I would argue that I might be in a better position to judge, having experienced strong spiritual witnesses in, and out, of the LDS Church (although I would understand why you might not believe that).

[grego]

When I attended the CoJCoLDS it was a sad discovery to me, to see that the members held Happiness and Joy in the far off.

When what i have learned in life and read in the scriptures that teach joy is of the Saints and none but they can "Put it On", as it is something that we take upon us.

Why is joy, perfection, happiness etc.... put in the far off.

Hebrews speaks of some of the Prophets even putting the promises in the far off.

This is the error of man, and not the teaching of God.

Put on Joy NOW, Put on immortallity NOW. All things are possible now, God has not put a pause button on us, we are able to receive a fullness now, and receive the fullness of His promises if we ask and seek for them. this is a growth process meant for this sphere of education. If it is put in the far off, or after this time, then we will have missed out on a once in a lifetime opportunity.

son

Actually, it's the teaching of God--just not the full teaching.

Maybe that was your experience because many members are sick sinners, and well, it's a struggle sometimes for us to put the natural man off. Without the Church, maybe all those "not so happy" LDS you saw would be much, much unhappier. See, the humble part is knowing it and working on it, and sometimes the difference between where we are and where we would like to be, is large, and we think more on that than we should. Unlike many I've met, who are very happy normally about life, but buckle and sometimes break when it comes to the deeper parts. I'd rather be a man who is not happy because he's doing things he currently doesn't like but understands yet seeks to overcome and one day like them (think PARADIGMS here), than one who is happy until he has to face anything godly he might not like.

And hopefuly the more you do do what you know you should do, the happier and more joyful you often are.

"Receive a fullness now"? So why are you still here, and not with the city of Enoch?

[jadams_4242]

Sorry, there is absolutely no way you can say you know my experiences or my "understanding." Your claim of such is the epitome of arrogance, IMO. Any person that claims to know another's experience loses all credibility.

Temper,temper,temper!

[BishopRic]

Temper,temper,temper!

Sorry if you perceive that comment as anger...just stating the obvious fact that any debate is lost when one chooses to state what the other feels, believes, etc.. You did that very well. I have no interest in continuing a dialogue when a person starts to tell me what I have experienced.

[LifeOnaPlate]

Imputing motives to others is, indeed, a fatal flaw in many instances, Ric.