Temple Ordinances In The New Testament And Early Christianity

[katherine the great]

The LDS pattern of using esoteric rites is after the pattern of how SOME ancients conducted SOME religious rites of passage.

This is an interesting thread, but do you realize that MOST ancient religions conducted mysterious rites of passage? We can find evidence of this for tens of thousands of years.

[LifeOnaPlate]

Speaking of the Bible and secrets, etc. one need turn no further than the Gospel According to John, chapter twenty to find some interesting evidence of the esoteric:

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[Hick Preacher]

Yes, that's precisely the point. Many early Christians said that the secret or esoteric teachings they practiced were handed down from Christ, after the resurrection, through the apostles. They also claimed two groups of Christians, the teleoi and those who were still babes or carnal.

Yes a few describe Christian teachings in these terms-- and a few like Irenaus of Lyons disputed certain 'Christian-gnostics' claims about the content and nature teachings. Clement of Alex mentions teaching of the Apostles that were transmitted orally to reach the highest sphere- and about being saved in the first degree. (Stomata if I recall).

These ECF mentioning do not pin-down a specific collection of NT canon which intentionally leaves out such esoteric teachings. So what is esoteric seems to be that which was not accessible for reading because NT books were yet to be widely distributed. Irenaus viewed NT canon candidates differently than Clement-- what was meat to some was milk to others. These higher teachings seem to have been included in the canon we have in the NT today. The content of these descriptions about oral traditions of the original apostles do not seem to indicate the methods found in the LDS system. The author of Hebrews explicitly identifies His book as explaining the 'meat of the gospel' and identifies the 'milk'. Babes are mentioned in the NT and the NT likewise includes teachings beyond just being to babes.

The Book of Acts starts out with the account of Jesus being on Earth for 40 days and imparting important teachings. These teaching seem to found in the books of Acts and in the Letters of Peter, James, Paul, John, Jude...

The Christian message even in the NT Epistles contain esoteric teachings that include deep mysteries well beyond the understanding of Babes. These are likely what certain ECF spoke about. Ofcourse people are always wishing discover some lost 'secret'. If something was originally secret, then lost, never recorded not passed on-- we would not even know that it existed-- kind of a catch 22. Somethings once secret or esoteric soon afterwards are accessible and no longer new or strange.

The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is a restoration of the true Church with all of it's practices. This is clearly one of them..

It is OK by me for you to share your conviction.

There is nothing in the New Testament or otherwise to indicate you can teach gnosis in any way that your culture deems appropriate.

I would not say that it is a complete free-for-all either. However many teaching methods of early Christianity have their origins and were adapted from the pagan and profane. A lot of teachings and practices sometimes thought unique to ancient/original Christianity are not essentially nor inherently 'Christian' nor invented by Jesus-- but were adopted by Jesus and used by Christians for practical purposes.

[Hick Preacher]

The parallels are abundant.

Yes parallels of sorts--world religions have lots of parallels with each other.

Scholars often draw many parallels between Christianity and other so-called pagan religions-- and Mormonism and pagan religions.

There is a difference between a parallel and a restoration

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Yes various world religions have had secret rites of initiation for thousands of years going back to prehistoric times.

[MormonMason]

Yes-- The Title "Peter" is an office title of previously existing and popular mystery cults found in Rome.

"Peter" in a mystery religion was the high master's right hand man.

Titles of Bishop, Deacon and soforth were also previously used traditional mystery cult offices and the Christian version had coresponding office functions to the pagan versions.

Paul calls himself a "Masterbuilder"- a mystery cult title. 1 Cor. 3:10

Early Christianity used the language of ancient pagan religions of Rome. It seems it did so inorder to create a baseline inorder to make comparisons between common religions functionality of time of its founding-- VS-- its unique critical attributes of Christianity. Origen mentions this in terms of Christianity being nothing new or strange-- but rather always existed among the pagans (paraphrased by Hick's memory of previous readings). Origen ofcourse not refering to saving beliefs-- but rather administrative organizational offices and structures.

None of the above even addresses the point I made, really. I would be interested to learn which mystery rites supposedly used Peter as an office title, though. I also would be interested in seeing the quote from Origen to which you refer.

So far as masterbuilder, bishop or overseer, and deacon being used, point taken. However, that does not mean that you have weakened the argument. These titles are used in modern Freemasonry as well in the context of the rituals but that does not really have anything to do with what we are speaking about in this thread.

The point is that Paul says that there is a wisdom only communicated to the initiated or perfected ones and not to others of the Christian faith. And, they do it in a mystery, meaning that they do it secretly or in a mysterious manner so as to not give it to those not entitled to it. That is the meaning of the Greek of the passages under question by Bauer. It cannot have been anything like the four spiritual laws tract of anything basic at all, for the basics were for all Christians and the wisdom only was communicated to the perfected ones.

[LifeOnaPlate]

As quoted above, John knew of other "signs" Jesus did which weren't included in the New Testament. I believe they were important even though not recorded therein, and I don't believe any of Paul's epistles record them, either. The Bible wonderful, but it isn't perfect or finished.

[Helorum]

There is a difference between a parallel and a restoration

And hopefully someday you will become educated enough through dedicated study in non-LDS sources to see that Mormon temple rites are an authentic restoration of the initiation ceremonies of the ancient Hebrews and the early Christians.

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

Speaking of the Bible and secrets, etc. one need turn no further than the Gospel According to John, chapter twenty to find some interesting evidence of the esoteric:

I never noticed this. This is facinating*. Quite a great thread going on here. Some times I must be looking to hard when reading the scriptures.

Yeah for post 1200.

[Hick Preacher]

As quoted above, John knew of other "signs" Jesus did which weren't included in the New Testament. I believe they were important even though not recorded therein, and I don't believe any of Paul's epistles record them, either. The Bible wonderful, but it isn't perfect or finished.

Of course if John's gospel is 'this book' it does not exclude the letters nor other gospels.

added----

The point is that Paul says that there is a wisdom only communicated to the initiated or perfected ones and not to others of the Christian faith. And, they do it in a mystery, meaning that they do it secretly or in a mysterious manner so as to not give it to those not entitled to it. That is the meaning of the Greek of the passages under question by Bauer.

Please show where the Apostle Paul says the above-

[LifeOnaPlate]

Of course if John's gospel is 'this book' it does not exclude the letters nor other gospels.

Agreed, that's why I included the comment about the signs done at that time being found in the other books. I've looked for them specifically and haven't found them. Have you?

[ps- I hope you don't use the Revelation 22 scripture to criticize the BoM ]

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

[ps- I hope you don't use the Revelation 22 scripture to criticize the BoM ]

Even if Hick did, It wouldnt matter.

[Hick Preacher]

Agreed, that's why I included the comment about the signs done at that time being found in the other books. I've looked for them specifically and haven't found them. Have you?

Yes of course there are other signs-- very next book (Acts) Coming of the Holy Ghost-- Paul's Conversion, Stephen looking into heaven and seeing Christ--- Paul raising a young man who was killed after falling out of a window. And on and On... Right into the last book (REV) second coming.

Rev 22 ? You mean= Do not add or take from Book of Rev.

Agreed, that's why I included the comment about the signs done at that time being found in the other books. I've looked for them specifically and haven't found them. Have you?

Yes of course there are other signs-- not in John but in other gospel-- such as

Angels protected Jesus in the desert Matthew 4:11 Mark 1:12-13

Exorcism in Capernaum Mark 1:21-28 Luke 4:31-37

Cured a centurion's boy-servant Matt 8:5-13 Luke 7:1-10

Caught large number of fish, converted fishermen to "fishers of men" Luke 5:1-11

Cured a leper Matt 8:1-4 Mark 1:40-45 Luke 5:12-16

Cured a centurion's boy-servant Matt 8:5-13 Luke 7:1-10

Cured Peter's mother-in-law's fever and drove out many evil spirits Matt 8:14-17 Mark 1:29-34 Luke 4:38-41

Drove 7 demons out of Mary Magdalene Mark 16:9 Luke 8:2

Calmed a storm at sea by rebuking the wind and waves Matt 8:23-27 Mark 4:35-41 Luke 8:22-25

Cured Peter's mother-in-law's fever and drove out many evil spirits Matt 8:14-17 Mark 1:29-34 Luke 4:38-41

Drove 7 demons out of Mary Magdalene Mark 16:9 Luke 8:2

Calmed a storm at sea by rebuking the wind and waves Matt 8:23-27 Mark 4:35-41 Luke 8:22-25

Healed the Gerasene Demoniac Matt 8:28-34 Mark 5:1-20 Luke 8:26-39

Cured a paralytic at Capernaum Matt 9:1-8 Mark 2:1-12 Luke 5:17-26

very next book (Acts) Coming of the Holy Ghost-- Paul's Conversion, Stephen looking into heaven and seeing Christ--- Paul raising a young man who was killed after falling out of a window. And on and On... Right into the last book (REV) second coming.

Rev 22 ? You mean= Do not add or take from Book of Rev.

[LifeOnaPlate]

Yes of course there are other signs-- very next book (Acts) Coming of the Holy Ghost-- Paul's Conversion, Stephen looking into heaven and seeing Christ--- Paul raising a young man who was killed after falling out of a window. And on and On... Right into the last book (REV) second coming.

Rev 22 ? You mean= Do not add or take from Book of Rev.

Yes of course there are other signs-- not in John but in other gospel-- such as

Angels protected Jesus in the desert Matthew 4:11 Mark 1:12-13

Exorcism in Capernaum Mark 1:21-28 Luke 4:31-37

Cured a centurion's boy-servant Matt 8:5-13 Luke 7:1-10

Caught large number of fish, converted fishermen to "fishers of men" Luke 5:1-11

Cured a leper Matt 8:1-4 Mark 1:40-45 Luke 5:12-16

Cured a centurion's boy-servant Matt 8:5-13 Luke 7:1-10

Cured Peter's mother-in-law's fever and drove out many evil spirits Matt 8:14-17 Mark 1:29-34 Luke 4:38-41

Drove 7 demons out of Mary Magdalene Mark 16:9 Luke 8:2

Calmed a storm at sea by rebuking the wind and waves Matt 8:23-27 Mark 4:35-41 Luke 8:22-25

Cured Peter's mother-in-law's fever and drove out many evil spirits Matt 8:14-17 Mark 1:29-34 Luke 4:38-41

Drove 7 demons out of Mary Magdalene Mark 16:9 Luke 8:2

Calmed a storm at sea by rebuking the wind and waves Matt 8:23-27 Mark 4:35-41 Luke 8:22-25

Healed the Gerasene Demoniac Matt 8:28-34 Mark 5:1-20 Luke 8:26-39

Cured a paralytic at Capernaum Matt 9:1-8 Mark 2:1-12 Luke 5:17-26

very next book (Acts) Coming of the Holy Ghost-- Paul's Conversion, Stephen looking into heaven and seeing Christ--- Paul raising a young man who was killed after falling out of a window. And on and On... Right into the last book (REV) second coming.

Rev 22 ? You mean= Do not add or take from Book of Rev.

I was referring to the signs he did in their presence at that meeting after the resurrection. Not all signs; the ones mentioned by John, specifically.

[Hick Preacher]

Even if Hick did, It wouldnt matter.

Why would I ----???

[Hick Preacher]

LOP

Ascended to Heaven Mark 16:19-20 Luke 24:50-53

[MormonMason]

...

Please show where the Apostle Paul says the above-

See 1 Corinthians 2 in the Greek. Please pay close attention to 2:6-7 and check out the reference to this passage that I gave above in the standard Greek-English lexicon (marked in red), A Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament and Other Early Christian Literature.

It is as plain as the nose on one's face.

[LifeOnaPlate]

LOP

Ascended to Heaven Mark 16:19-20 Luke 24:50-53

I haven't yet in this life. Literally, anyway.

[Hick Preacher]

2:6. Howbeit we speak wisdom among the perfect: yet not the wisdom of this world, neither of the princes of this world that come to nought.

Sapientiam autem loquimur inter perfectos sapientiam vero non huius saeculi neque principum huius saeculi qui destruuntur

2:7. But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, a wisdom which is hidden, which God ordained before the world, unto our glory:

Sed loquimur Dei sapientiam in mysterio quae abscondita est quam praedestinavit Deus ante saecula in gloriam nostram

As in Col 1:26 that is, the mystery which has been hidden (RPPNSA) from the past ages & generations, but has now been manifested (3SAPI) to His saints,

Greek: to musterion to apokekrummenon (RPPNSA) apo ton aionon kai apo ton geneon nun de ephanerothe (3SAPI) tois hagiois autou,

ICB: This teaching is the secret truth that was hidden since the beginning of time. It was hidden from everyone, but now it is made known to God's holy people.

Phillips: that sacred mystery which up to now has been hidden in every age and every generation, but which is now as clear as daylight to those who love God.

Wuest: the mystery which has been kept hidden from the ages and from the generations, but now was made known to His saints,

Looks like this kind of mystery is not something managed to keep to an inner circle of Christians to me--

Please explain your views-

[Hick Preacher]

LOP

I haven't yet in this life. Literally, anyway.

[Drewm777]

Irenaus viewed NT canon candidates differently than Clement-- what was meat to some was milk to others. These higher teachings seem to have been included in the canon we have in the NT today.

References would be helpful.

The content of these descriptions about oral traditions of the original apostles do not seem to indicate the methods found in the LDS system.

References would be helpful.

The author of Hebrews explicitly identifies His book as explaining the 'meat of the gospel' and identifies the 'milk'. Babes are mentioned in the NT and the NT likewise includes teachings beyond just being to babes.

References would be helpful.

The Book of Acts starts out with the account of Jesus being on Earth for 40 days and imparting important teachings. These teaching seem to found in the books of Acts and in the Letters of Peter, James, Paul, John, Jude...

References would be helpful. It seems that the early Christians believed just the opposite. Clement of Alexandria specifically said that the 40 day teachings were handed down orally, and not written.

The Christian message even in the NT Epistles contain esoteric teachings that include deep mysteries well beyond the understanding of Babes. These are likely what certain ECF spoke about.

Reference would be helpful.

Of course people are always wishing discover some lost 'secret'. If something was originally secret, then lost, never recorded not passed on-- we would not even know that it existed-- kind of a catch 22.

Unless they mentioned the fact that such secrets existed without saying what they were. Which they did do, by the way. So, it's not a catch 22, it's a real problem for those who claim Christianity has survived in its fullness.

Somethings once secret or esoteric soon afterwards are accessible and no longer new or strange.

Sure, but you can't show that with these mysteries. Even as late as the 5th century they still were talking about an inner circle. When exactly did the teachings stop being esoteric? I submit they never did. They were lost.

However many teaching methods of early Christianity have their origins and were adapted from the pagan and profane. A lot of teachings and practices sometimes thought unique to ancient/original Christianity are not essentially nor inherently 'Christian' nor invented by Jesus-- but were adopted by Jesus and used by Christians for practical purposes.

In LDS thought all those things Jesus revealed were revealed time and time again before. They were lost or perverted. It is therefore likely that many corrupt forms are in the world. We would not say Jesus adopted them. There may have been parallels, but Jesus restored the fullness of the gospel. That gospel was perverted and later restored by Jesus again through Joseph Smith. Thus the similarities.

[Drewm777]

Yes parallels of sorts--world religions have lots of parallels with each other.

Scholars often draw many parallels between Christianity and other so-called pagan religions-- and Mormonism and pagan religions.

There is a difference between a parallel and a restoration

-------------------

Yes various world religions have had secret rites of initiation for thousands of years going back to prehistoric times.

Once again, we expect such parallels because we believe all of these things have been revealed time and time again because of perversions that entered by conspiring men.

So, we expect parallels. Parallels do not equate to sources, however. Just because some things in Early Christianity were similar to Greek Mystery religions doesn't mean they borrowed it from Greek Mystery religions. It could be that the Greek Mystery religions had their roots in some ancient revealed mysteries from God. Once again, I think Margaret Barker makes a strong case for the mysteries coming out of Old Testament Temple religion. See the link provided above by LifeOnaPlate.

[Drewm777]

Please show where the Apostle Paul says the above-

I think it was in the Original Post. If you read it, it's abundantly clear that Paul's Christianity had an inner circle of those who were initiated into secret rituals. That this continued on and shows up later in the 2nd 3rd and 4th centuries is exactly what you'd expect. That was the whole point of the original post.

[MormonMason]

2:6. Howbeit we speak wisdom among the perfect: yet not the wisdom of this world, neither of the princes of this world that come to nought.

Sapientiam autem loquimur inter perfectos sapientiam vero non huius saeculi neque principum huius saeculi qui destruuntur

2:7. But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, a wisdom which is hidden, which God ordained before the world, unto our glory:

Sed loquimur Dei sapientiam in mysterio quae abscondita est quam praedestinavit Deus ante saecula in gloriam nostram

As in Col 1:26...

Looks like this kind of mystery is not something managed to keep to an inner circle of Christians to me--

Please explain your views-

Trying to interpret what is written in 1 Corinthians 2 by Colossians 1:26 will not help you to understand 1 Corinthians 2 as a whole unit of thought. At best, it will lead you away from comprehending. Some footnotes tend to do that, particularly if one is a Strong's Concordance-jockey. One must look at how the word is used within the context of the passage, not how it is used in an entirely different book with entirely different subject matter.

Did you look over the part I marked red in the standard Greek-English Lexicon, yet? I should not have to explain my view if you have read it and understood it.

P.S.: BTW, what is up with the quotes from the Latin Vulgate in the sentences where I asked you to check the Greek? Is that some sort of joke?

[Hick Preacher]

Irenaeus' view on the canons vs Clement of A.

First referrence is about Irenaeus' status

http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/benedict...0070328_en.html

In fact, the Gospel preached by Irenaeus is the one he was taught by Polycarp, Bishop of Smyrna, and Polycarp's Gospel dates back to the Apostle John, whose disciple Polycarp was.

The true teaching, therefore, is not that invented by intellectuals which goes beyond the Church's simple faith. The true Gospel is the one imparted by the Bishops who received it in an uninterrupted line from the Apostles. They taught nothing except this simple faith, which is also the true depth of God's revelation. Thus, Irenaeus tells us, there is no secret doctrine concealed in the Church's common Creed. There is no superior Christianity for intellectuals. The faith publicly confessed by the Church is the common faith of all.

Also see a review of the Gnostic Gospels- Pagels

see http://www.necessaryprose.com/pagels.html

[MormonMason]

Irenaeus' view on the canons vs Clement of A.

First referrence is about Irenaeus' status

http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/benedict...0070328_en.html...

Just what we need--a rumor account passed down to us through two other people, centuries apart. Where is the validity in that?

Well, notwithstanding the intent, let us discuss something related to Irenaeus. Irenaeus also taught similarly to Clement of Alexandria on a number of matters, not the least of which was that there were to be three domains where people who were saved could be saved, and he clearly taught that men would become God and have the faculty (ability and attributes) of the Uncreated imparted to them by having eternal existence bestowed on them by God.

So, if what this above linked article says about him being taught the Gospel by the Elders who learned it directly from John be true, what does that say about the doctrines just mentioned? Thanks, Hick, for making our point to a degree.

Also see a review of the Gnostic Gospels- Pagels

see http://www.necessaryprose.com/pagels.html

Not a bad review of Pagel's Gnostic Gospels. That was one of the first few scholarly books I got my hands on so many years ago. I found it by accident while looking for something else. I suppose that the reason why Hick quoted it is to show the dangers of Gnosticism to the early Church.

What made them and their ideas so dangerous? The Church had ceased to believe in revelation and had lost prophets and apostles. Why else? Well, for one thing, there still were elements of early Christianity in them which were attractive to people. The Late Second Century and early Third Century church had rushed too quickly to get rid of some of the original ideas. In other cases, the early Church and the Gnostics actually shared ideas and the term Gnostic even was shared amongst members of both groups during the Second Century, as can be seen by the above quotes from Clement of Alexandria!

Clement of Alexandria himself used the term Gnostic to refer to true Christians who gained knowledge and would be rightly saved through knowledge (a very "Mormon" idea; see Doctrine and Covenants 130:18-19; 131:6; Teachings of Presidents of the Church: Joseph Smith, 265-266) that leads us into the highest of three realms, the realm of the lords and gods, and would be placed on thrones with the other gods who were first put there by the Saviour. He taught that the true Gnostic studies to be God. And, Clement of Alexandria was Orthodox and who also shared these like ideas with the Heterodox Gnostics.

Fascinating stuff, isn't it?