The Eternal Nature Of Gender

[CMZ]

Who would be benefited by you cutting yourself off from the Church and the gift of the Holy Ghost?

[Zoidberg]

Who would be benefited by you cutting yourself off from the Church and the gift of the Holy Ghost?

Who says I will lose the Gift of the Holy Ghost when I stop going to Church or even if I choose to have my name removed? (I know the Church says it, but they say a lot of other things I just don't see as truth, so how do I know I will, in fact, lose this gift if I leave? Or that I didn't have this gift until the Church bestowed it upon me?)

[CMZ]

You do have the Light of Christ simply by being born into this world. Receiving the gift of the Holy Ghost (an extra spiritual endowment) comes through baptism into and confirmation as a member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. Undo those two things and the gift of the Holy Ghost goes along with it. You are certainly free to argue that such is not the case just as I'm free to argue that I'm best friends with the Pope and that I once guest-starred on Green Acres.

[Zoidberg]

You do have the Light of Christ simply by being born into this world. Receiving the gift of the Holy Ghost (an extra spiritual endowment) comes through baptism into and confirmation as a member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. Undo those two things and the gift of the Holy Ghost goes along with it. You are certainly free to argue that such is not the case just as I'm free to argue that I'm best friends with the Pope and that I once guest-starred on Green Acres.

The things YOU are free to argue, as you have said, can be objectively verified based on available empirical evidence. The claim that one receives extra spiritual endowment by becoming LDS or loses it when one stops being LDS cannot.

[Helmuth]

There were things that the FP was saying that I thought were wrong, but I could still respect them as my spiritual leaders, right?

Right!

But, as I have already explained to Helmuth, when the FP sets forth both the positions I consider wrong (legally banning gay marriage, for instance) and the position that the most faithful members will align themselves with the FP's position on whatever issue, I don't really think that people like me are very welcome in the Church.

You're totally wrong! It is not reasonable to expect the Apostles to be right about political issues. It's just not a realistic expectation. To you, in order to qualify as a legitimate spiritual leader, does one have to be an astute political philosopher?

When I was ordained to the Aaronic Priesthood and set apart to the office of deacon, I held several political opinions that were wrong. Despite this, I beleive, I could still properly officiate in passing the sacrament, making Deaconic Pronouncements (if there were such a thing), and doing other priesthood duties, being a true, anointed servant of Christ. Apostleship is just another calling in the Church. Apostles can be wrong about politics. Political intelligence is not a litmus test for apostleship or prophetic leadership, at least not anywhere that I read in the scriptures. There's been some that were on the right track, like the biblical Samuel and the latter-day Ezra Taft Benson. But it's not a requirement. For that matter, neither is biological and scientific savvy and holding what you feel is the "correct enlightened view" on gender role phychology or whatever. They are still anointed, authorized, servants of Christ who receive revelation to lead the Church. There's no contradiction or "cognitive dissonance" or anything like that involved in understand these simple concepts. You just need to have the correct conception of what a General Authority is.

As far as you not feeling comfortable disagreeing, that is your problem not theirs! GBH admires Brigham Young greatly. Brigham said:

What a pity it would be if we were led by one man to utter destruction! Are you afraid of this? I am more afraid that this people have so much confidence in their leaders that they will not inquire for themselves of God whether they are led by Him. I am fearful they settle down in a state of blind self-security, trusting their eternal destiny in the hands of their leaders with a reckless confidence that in itself would thwart the purposes of God in their salvation, and weaken that influence they could give to their leaders, did they know for themselves, by the revelations of Jesus, that they are led in the right way. Let every man and woman know, by the whispering of the Spirit of God to themselves, whether their leaders are walking in the path the Lord dictates, or not. This has been my exhortation continually.

Question! Think! Disagree! Mormonism has a strong heritage of independent thought. Independent thought has been allowed, supported, and even encouraged at times, throughout Mormon history. Let me give you one example. Orson Pratt and Brigham Young disagreed vehemently with each other on many fundamental theological questions, this is things like "Is God bound by Eternal Law?", not just minor, obscure, edge issues like sex-change surguries. Pratt disagreed publicly and prominently. Orson Pratt was not excommunicated or disfellowshipped for this.

[CMZ]

The things YOU are free to argue, as you have said, can be objectively verified based on available empirical evidence.

Okay, then I am free to argue that Buddha and Leonardo da Vinci often play chess together on an ethereal astral plane somewhere. Try empirically proving that.

The claim that one receives extra spiritual endowment by becoming LDS or loses it when one stops being LDS cannot.

It is proved by personal experience. Cold, hard, empirical evidence does little to bring about life-changing transformations [like Pharaoh completely disregarding all of Moses' miracles]. God wants his children to draw near to him, not to play mind games where they say, "Okay, I'm not sure that's enough proof for me. Show me some more proof." But if a person wants to be like that he allows it 100%. It might be hard for you to see that religion is a personal thing when you get hung up on "the hierarchy" and make everything an Us vs. Them proposition. "But I'm not saying it's Us vs. Them! I'm really disagreeing in this other way . . . " Okay, okay, okay, keep on disagreeing with whatever you want as long as you want. "But I'm not trying to be contradictory." Yeah, yeah, whatever.

You are also free to start your own religion with the belief that everyone has the gift of the Holy Ghost upon birth and where gender distinctions are entirely meaningless or next to meaningless, but where a proclamation you send out goes into minute detail about every factor and every biological condition that makes a boy a boy or a girl a girl.

Pratt disagreed publicly and prominently. Orson Pratt was not excommunicated or disfellowshipped for this.

Makes me think of when a Sunday School teacher I had once was talking about something Elder McConkie said, then the teacher said, "But Bruce is entitled to his own wrong opinion." This was in a Sunday School class that may have had about 400 people in it, including people empowered administratively to initiate disciplinary action, yet not a single disciplinary action was taken against the teacher.

[Zoidberg]

What a pity it would be if we were led by one man to utter destruction! Are you afraid of this? I am more afraid that this people have so much confidence in their leaders that they will not inquire for themselves of God whether they are led by Him. I am fearful they settle down in a state of blind self-security, trusting their eternal destiny in the hands of their leaders with a reckless confidence that in itself would thwart the purposes of God in their salvation, and weaken that influence they could give to their leaders, did they know for themselves, by the revelations of Jesus, that they are led in the right way. Let every man and woman know, by the whispering of the Spirit of God to themselves, whether their leaders are walking in the path the Lord dictates, or not. This has been my exhortation continually.

I think Brigham and I would get along just fine (as long as he was not forcing me to become his or anybody else's plural wife ). He and I could peacefully coexist because I'm not the type of person who would want to initiate a revolution and install myself or anybody else as the president of the Church. GBH expressed a totally different view than BY did, though, don't you think? Besides, he's a lving prophet, and the living prophet takes precedence over a dead one, does he not?

Okay, then I am free to argue that Buddha and Leonardo da Vinci often play chess together on an ethereal astral plane somewhere. Try empirically proving that.

I wouldn't even try. And you are free to argue whatever you want, but it would be pointless, as you would have no argument to present to anyone but yourself.

You are also free to start your own religion with the belief that everyone has the gift of the Holy Ghost upon birth and where gender distinctions are entirely meaningless or next to meaningless, but where a proclamation you send out goes into minute detail about every factor and every biological condition that makes a boy a boy or a girl a girl.

I would never start such a religion because I'm a value pluralist. I think if you were able to understand how value pluralists think, you wouldn't think I was being arrogant or subscribing to any kind of "us vs. them" mentality. Value pluralists don't usually think in terms of "us vs. them". Moral absolutists do (I would hesitate to call myself a moral relativist as well, just so you don't get any ideas). So I think my personal beliefs (whatever they may be) are neither superior nor more valid than yours. But someone's belief that they are a man trapped in a woman's body is not inferior or less valid than what you may believe. So I don't see any justification of your or anybody else's dismissal of that belief of theirs as invalid, just as I don't see any justification of their trying to dismiss your beliefs as invalid, whatever they may be.

Makes me think of when a Sunday School teacher I had once was talking about something Elder McConkie said, then the teacher said, "But Bruce is entitled to his own wrong opinion." This was in a Sunday School class that may have had about 400 people in it, including people empowered administratively to initiate disciplinary action, yet not a single disciplinary action was taken against the teacher.

Well, when Bruce wrote the book that he very humbly called "Mormon Doctrine", he put one little line in it that many people overlook. He said he takes full responsibility for the contents of the book. So the teacher did not say anything that shocking. Besides, I don't know when this was taking place. Was McConkie still alive at that point? I know a single instance of me saying I disagree with the Church's involvement into the whole marriage amendment deal will definitely not lead to any disciplinary action. If I tried to present my reasoning and/or bore my testimony of God's approval of homosexual unions, that might. at least informally. Not to give you an idea that my position is "I'll leave before you can kick me out".

[cartoon bluejay]

Who says I will lose the Gift of the Holy Ghost when I stop going to Church or even if I choose to have my name removed? (I know the Church says it, but they say a lot of other things I just don't see as truth, so how do I know I will, in fact, lose this gift if I leave? Or that I didn't have this gift until the Church bestowed it upon me?)

Zoidberg - I can assure that you will not lose your spiritual gifts if you leave the church. I was told the same thing. It just doesn't happen, maybe for some it does if they abandoned spirituality all together but I don't see you doing that. I tell you what - after examining and rexamining and releasing some of the untruths - my spirituality has increased.

BTW - what happened to your cool avatar? I hope it was your choice - - -

[Zoidberg]

Zoidberg - I can assure that you will not lose your spiritual gifts if you leave the church. I was told the same thing. It just doesn't happen, maybe for some it does if they abandoned spirituality all together but I don't see you doing that. I tell you what - after examining and rexamining and releasing some of the untruths - my spirituality has increased.

Thanks, bluejay. I also believe that although I might have gained some spirituality by joining the LDS Church (although it might not have happened in a way most people would think), it does not mean that I will lose that spirituality were I to leave. I'm glad that yours has increased

BTW - what happened to your cool avatar? I hope it was your choice - - -

Quite predictably, the admins have asked me to remove it because it was too "edgy" for this community (although "not objectionable per se" ). So I have replaced it with a picture that represents an equal abomination (to me), which is the cartoon character Daria (who is a poster child for sarcasm and non-conformism) dressed in a way that bimbos usually dress. I've noticed your avatar has changed, too. It's cute, although I liked the animated one, too.

[CMZ]

To some people the one true religion is ex-Mormonism. "You can't be free until you extricate yourself from their clutches!!!"

[myleague]

I've been pondering your plight and this is my conclusion. Why would you be so selfish as to leave the church and allow others to wallow in stagnant groups? I'm sure a great many do not agree with your ideas, however extreme and out there they may seem, it forces people to look at things in a different light. My views on people are that when it comes to church many do because they are told; some follow blindly because they are lazy; while a very few go above wanting and doing more.

It isn't the Prophet that leaves the 99 to find that one lost sheep, it's the Sheppard, the prophet is more like the sheep dog used for guiding the group. Saving the individuals who stray too far behind or too far ahead is Christ's job.

Many are trying to find their callings in this life, this is our mission. I've always cringed when hearing missionaries talk about MY mission. Truth is life is our mission, the two years I spent in service wasn't my time, but time I donated to service on the Lord's behalf. You have the chance of serving your fellow brother's and sisters, friends and neighbors by helping them think outside the box. It is they who disagree loudest who usually have a cord struck in them. I'm sure you have other reasons for wanting to separate yourself from the church, I'm only suggesting that by so doing you will not be serving your fellow men, you will only be doing a disservice to them.

I find moments of enlightenment in the strangest places, I really liked the movie Evan Almighty, it was kind of hokey, but one part struck me because I never thought of the story of Noah as such. God was asking Evan's wife about the story of Noah and he said that people thought God flooded the earth because he was angry. God saw it more of a love story, that Noah and his wife worked together to do what was asked. In spite of the mocking and craziness of building a boat. It may be off the mark, but I never thought of that side of the story, it makes perfect sense to me that there could have been a very strong story for love and family connections there that is overlooked.

I don't know the turning point but at one time people that mental illness was the cause of sin or devils that could be purged. It takes time to influence people's understanding, it may take longer than your life time to accomplish, but imagine the number of people who you can help. Sexuality is a highly polarized topic, the brethren have stated that gender is eternal, this speaks nothing of physical gender. I say there is a high probability that spirits of a specific gender could be born into a body of the opposite gender. We have seen a many number of physical anomalies to know that stranger things have happened.

Don't give up your fight, and don't give up on your church family. Work out your further light and knowledge with the Lord and help others to see outside the box. Regardless of what we are in this life, loving God and our neighbors as our selves is still paramount.

[cartoon bluejay]

To some people the one true religion is ex-Mormonism. "You can't be free until you extricate yourself from their clutches!!!"

Some people aren't that polarized... some people believe their is no "one true religion". One beautiful thing I learned as a Mormon - how to recognize truth. Sometimes "freedom" and/or "clutches" are created within ourselves.

[Zoidberg]

I've been pondering your plight and this is my conclusion. Why would you be so selfish as to leave the church and allow others to wallow in stagnant groups? I'm sure a great many do not agree with your ideas, however extreme and out there they may seem, it forces people to look at things in a different light. My views on people are that when it comes to church many do because they are told; some follow blindly because they are lazy; while a very few go above wanting and doing more.

It isn't the Prophet that leaves the 99 to find that one lost sheep, it's the Sheppard, the prophet is more like the sheep dog used for guiding the group. Saving the individuals who stray too far behind or too far ahead is Christ's job.

Many are trying to find their callings in this life, this is our mission. I've always cringed when hearing missionaries talk about MY mission. Truth is life is our mission, the two years I spent in service wasn't my time, but time I donated to service on the Lord's behalf. You have the chance of serving your fellow brother's and sisters, friends and neighbors by helping them think outside the box. It is they who disagree loudest who usually have a cord struck in them. I'm sure you have other reasons for wanting to separate yourself from the church, I'm only suggesting that by so doing you will not be serving your fellow men, you will only be doing a disservice to them.

I find moments of enlightenment in the strangest places, I really liked the movie Evan Almighty, it was kind of hokey, but one part struck me because I never thought of the story of Noah as such. God was asking Evan's wife about the story of Noah and he said that people thought God flooded the earth because he was angry. God saw it more of a love story, that Noah and his wife worked together to do what was asked. In spite of the mocking and craziness of building a boat. It may be off the mark, but I never thought of that side of the story, it makes perfect sense to me that there could have been a very strong story for love and family connections there that is overlooked.

I don't know the turning point but at one time people that mental illness was the cause of sin or devils that could be purged. It takes time to influence people's understanding, it may take longer than your life time to accomplish, but imagine the number of people who you can help. Sexuality is a highly polarized topic, the brethren have stated that gender is eternal, this speaks nothing of physical gender. I say there is a high probability that spirits of a specific gender could be born into a body of the opposite gender. We have seen a many number of physical anomalies to know that stranger things have happened.

Don't give up your fight, and don't give up on your church family. Work out your further light and knowledge with the Lord and help others to see outside the box. Regardless of what we are in this life, loving God and our neighbors as our selves is still paramount.

I liked what you had to say very much. I don't think I would ever actually request a name removal. I wasn't thinking in terms of "oh, they disagree with me so they don't deserve my company" or "they have nothing to offer me anymore". Most of my family aren't LDS and strongly opposed my conversion. My husband is LDS, but he's more or less in limbo, as well. I think that just discussing these and other things on a message board can help people (myself included) think outside the box. I also think that many people would consider it disrespectful if I expressed such ideas in front of the whole congregation on Sunday and I don't want to be disrespectful. It's not really disciplinary actions that is my primary concern. So it's still a dillemma for me.

Sometimes "freedom" and/or "clutches" are created within ourselves.

[juliann]

I don't think I'm the only one who has questions. The questions are not my stumbling block, either. It is the practices coupled with the discouragement of questions in the Church.

I think everyone has questions, it would be a very boring religion if there were not questions. In my opinion, a religion without paradox is worthless. I also think the church is much more open to questioning now...just not in church. I doubt that will change.

[Zoidberg]

I think everyone has questions, it would be a very boring religion if there were not questions. In my opinion, a religion without paradox is worthless. I also think the church is much more open to questioning now...just not in church. I doubt that will change.

So do I. That's the problem.