DNA Relevance

[Zakuska]

Acts 2

5 And there were dwelling at Jerusalem Jews, devout men, out of every nation under heaven.

Does anyone else see the relevance of this verse with the DNA issue?

[poulsenll]

Acts 2

5 And there were dwelling at Jerusalem Jews, devout men, out of every nation under heaven.

Does anyone else see the relevance of this verse with the DNA issue?

Yes

Larry P

[jadams_4242]

Acts 2

5 And there were dwelling at Jerusalem Jews, devout men, out of every nation under heaven.

Does anyone else see the relevance of this verse with the DNA issue?

That the tribe of ephraim was jewish?

[Zakuska]

This scripture says that being Jewish has nothing to do with Race and thus yields the DNA issue mote. \

Because what does 6th Century "Jewish" DNA look like?

A melting Pot just like in our Day and age.

[cdowis]

No, but it does give the answer to the argument that people were "first" called Christians in Antioch, as an argument against the BOM.

[karl61]

No, but it does give the answer to the argument that people were "first" called Christians in Antioch, as an argument against the BOM.

I thought they were all called nazerenes.

[jadams_4242]

This scripture says that being Jewish has nothing to do with Race and thus yields the DNA issue mote. \

Because what does 6th Century "Jewish" DNA look like?

A melting Pot just like in our Day and age.

So why dont you tell us what relavence you see in this verse?

[Garry T]

Zak,

During the New Testament days, there were Jews from all over the world who would come to the Temple to worship, they were able to maintain their Genetic footprint. Example: the Lemba tribe of Black Africans who are Jewish and can trace their lineage back to Soloman's time. Their DNA is Jewish, just like Jews all over the World. The DNA marker is fool proof.

[Zakuska]

I just did... until some one can show us Lehi's DNA. Its an argument from Silence.

Zak,

During the New Testament days, there were Jews from all over the world who would come to the Temple to worship, they were able to maintain their Genetic footprint. Example: the Lemba tribe of Black Africans who are Jewish and can trace their lineage back to Soloman's time. Their DNA is Jewish, just like Jews all over the World. The DNA marker is fool proof.

BS Garry, Because being a Jew has nothing to do with DNA.

Moses' DNA can be traced back to Egypt to. So what.

Also if these people where from "every Nation etc. etc." as the verse says can you garentee that all of them were at least half blooded Israelites? There wasn't a single couple who converted to Judaism who lets say where purer blodded cananite or what not? And so how in the heck are you going to trace that?

[Garry T]

Zak,

You're confusing Jew by nationality and Jew by religion. Then there are Israelites, I'm not that knowledgeable regarding DNA science, but I would imagine they would have the same Genitic markers as Jews, wouldn't you think?

[Garry T]

Zak,

What does BS mean?

[selek]

Zak,

What does BS mean?

Just what you think it does- the semi-solid excrement of the adult male bovine.

[Zakuska]

Zak,

You're confusing Jew by nationality and Jew by religion. Then there are Israelites, I'm not that knowledgeable regarding DNA science, but I would imagine they would have the same Genitic markers as Jews, wouldn't you think?

No. Because the Bible interchanges Jew and Israelite all the time. Remember it wasn't Just "Jews" (ie from the tribe of Judah who where carried away into captivity) into every nation of the world.

Mods I'll retract the BS comment if Im going to get dinged for it.

Look at Esther. She was married off to the Prince of Persia. Do we find Jewsih DNA in the Royalty of Persia today? Inquiring Minds want to know.

[Garry T]

Zak,

No, the Bible doesn't interchange Jew and Iraelite. The Israelites were taken away hundreds of years before the Jews. They had been separate nations for Centuries. God's blessing stayed with the Tribe of Judah until after Christ's Crucifiction.

Thanks you for removeing the BS statement. And Selek, your unwanted comments are in very poor taste, but that's ok, nice meeting you and I forgive you.

Zak, I'm afraid I can't interact much with you on Ester, I haven't studied much of that part of the Bible.

[Sargon]

Zak,

During the New Testament days, there were Jews from all over the world who would come to the Temple to worship, they were able to maintain their Genetic footprint. Example: the Lemba tribe of Black Africans who are Jewish and can trace their lineage back to Soloman's time. Their DNA is Jewish, just like Jews all over the World. The DNA marker is fool proof.

Acts 2

5 And there were dwelling at Jerusalem Jews, devout men, out of every nation under heaven.

Youre not understanding Garry. The Jews mentioned in Acts 2 were from the following countries:

9Parthians, and Medes, and Elamites, and the dwellers in Mesopotamia, and in Judaea, and Cappadocia, in Pontus, and Asia,

10Phrygia, and Pamphylia, in Egypt, and in the parts of Libya about Cyrene, and strangers of Rome, Jews and proselytes,

11Cretes and Arabians, we do hear them speak in our tongues the wonderful works of God.

And it is possible that all these "Jews" were Jew by religion only, not by DNA. I of course am no authority on the question, but a possibility does seem to exist. One of the places on the list is ASIA. What we have is a verse in the bible that tells us that there were Jews from ASIA. Were any of them converted to the faith and had no Jewish DNA in their blood? Could something similar have happened in Lehi's time?

It seems that it would be a strange Asian Jew who also knew Egyptian, but Ill leave that question for others.

Sargon

[Magical Alma]

Zak,

During the New Testament days, there were Jews from all over the world who would come to the Temple to worship, they were able to maintain their Genetic footprint. Example: the Lemba tribe of Black Africans who are Jewish and can trace their lineage back to Soloman's time. Their DNA is Jewish, just like Jews all over the World. The DNA marker is fool proof.

Not so. Because, obviously, a strong Jewish Genetic footprint should have been left in the Americas as they originated in Jerusalem. As it didn't, this is proof that you can't always trust DNA or man-made science.

Even if only some of Lehi's group and others were from Asia, the Asian markers would eventually overcome and disintegrate the Middle-East markers because they are stronger in genetic codes. But like I said, that's only if you believe it. If not, it doesn't even matter. Whenever I see Native Americans, I think they look more Middle-Eastern than Asian. Just my opinion, however.

[kantgomo]

Acts 2

5 And there were dwelling at Jerusalem Jews, devout men, out of every nation under heaven.

Does anyone else see the relevance of this verse with the DNA issue?

What I see is that the gospel went out to men of every nation.

[PacMan]

I just saw a documentary last night on Hatshepsut (likely the most famous female ruler of Egypt). They were trying to identify "her" bones through Mitochondiral DNA with bones known to be of Hatshepsut, but the scientists were very reticent that the connection would be made due to several reason, including decay, etc. I was simply shocked that such a test could be so "iffy," being only one generation away, yet Southerton can proudly trump "his" findings with authority.

When is science reliable, and when is it not? Does it have everything to do with back dooring our conclusion?

PacMan

[The Dude]

This scripture says that being Jewish has nothing to do with Race and thus yields the DNA issue [moot]

It says that? Is it even talking about the 6th century BC? Does every nation under the earth literally mean just that? You've got a facile interpretation here, to say the least.

Because what does 6th Century "Jewish" DNA look like?

A melting Pot just like in our Day and age.

Look, the whole "what does 6th century Jewish DNA look like" question is ill conceived to begin with. The DNA of Lehi's group couldn't have corresponded to the mitochondrial and Y chromosomal markers that now dominate the western hemisphere, and that is enough to render the original "hemispheric" BoM hypothesis false. End of story.

(PS "hemispheric" and "global" are both misnomers because the issue is genetics, not geography -- but these are still the conventions in LDS apologetics.)

[The Dude]

I was simply shocked that such a test could be so "iffy," being only one generation away, yet Southerton can proudly trump "his" findings with authority.

Southerton's conclusions don't rely on single samples of ancient DNA, but on modern samples taken from thousands of individuals. There are techical differences. Also, the questions are completely different. The mummy question is asking is this, or could this be, a particular historical individual?. The Book of Mormon question is asking (or should be asking) could these markers have originated in the time and place postulated by traditional interpretations of the BoM??

When is science reliable, and when is it not? Does it have everything to do with back dooring our conclusion?

No. In this case it is reliable.

[The Dude]

And it is possible that all these "Jews" were Jew by religion only, not by DNA. I of course am no authority on the question, but a possibility does seem to exist. One of the places on the list is ASIA. What we have is a verse in the bible that tells us that there were Jews from ASIA. Were any of them converted to the faith and had no Jewish DNA in their blood? Could something similar have happened in Lehi's time?

It seems that it would be a strange Asian Jew who also knew Egyptian, but Ill leave that question for others.

Sure, Lehi could have had Asian-looking DNA, but not of the specific type found in America. The markers here occur in clusters that indicate an arrival predating the birth of Moses by thousands of years (~10,000 years ago or more). Lehi's DNA could have had some of the same markers, sure, but it couldn't have been within the American clusters unless you argue that very ancient Americans traveled back to Israel and became Lehi's forefathers.

[thesometimesaint]

The Dude:

Lehi left before the captivity in Babylon. What were the genetics of the of the Tribes of Israel and the indigenous population because of mixing? So we have little to no information on his genetics other than the name his Tribe.

What were the genetics of Lehis' wife? Unknown

What were the genetics of those that went with Lehi? Unknown

What were the genetics of the Jaredites? Unknown

And the list goes on and on like that.

So all we really have as far as genetics is concerned it is a bunch unknowns. So for Southerton, or anyone one else for that matter, to state the falsity of Mormon Scripture on the basis of unknowns is rather unscientific.

[TAK]

Not so. Because, obviously, a strong Jewish Genetic footprint should have been left in the Americas as they originated in Jerusalem. As it didn't, this is proof that you can't always trust DNA or man-made science.

Nice logic there..

[charity]

20 generations back, an individual will have over 1 million ancestors. Were there not interconnections on genealogical lines, 80 generations (back to Lehi) by a very conservative count, ancestors would number in the quadrillions.

Only one line will carry the mtDNA. The very right hand line of a pedigree chart. Only one line will carry the Y chromosome line and that only for males.

2 chances out of millions, billions, in a tested population of 5,000? I have done statistical analyses. This doesn't come anywhere near to meeting the rules of random sampling.

[Severian]

Acts 2

5 And there were dwelling at Jerusalem Jews, devout men, out of every nation under heaven.

Does anyone else see the relevance of this verse with the DNA issue?

This is a very good point. Who says the Jews were Jewish? This could just be some sort on United Nations plot to cast doubt on the Mormon saga.

And what do we really know about DNA anyway? Has anybody here actually seen this so called DNA?