Martin Harris - Spiritual Vs. Physical Eyes

[Helorum]

â??I have been reading about Martin Harris and how he said that he saw the plates with [his] spiritual and not his physical eyes. . . . I would like some insight regarding this matter.â?

Perhaps you will find this new FAIR Wiki paper to be insightful.

http://www.fairwiki.org/index.php/%22Eye_o...y_Martin_Harris

[California]

The spiritual eyes quote is a non-issue when put in the light of everything else said by Martin Harris. I direct you to read Richard Lloyd Anderson's "Investigating the Book of Mormon Witnesses" before worrying any further. Many others on this site will direct you to this book.

When I had witness questions Peterson recommended this to me and it has answered nearly all of my questions concerning the issue.

Thanks Auteur, I just ordered it!!! I'll remmember you if I have questions.

[LifeOnaPlate]

Perhaps you will find this new FAIR Wiki paper to be insightful.

http://www.fairwiki.org/index.php/%22Eye_o...y_Martin_Harris

D'OH! All that work by Dan Vogel blasted apart in one brief wiki entry.

[Bill “Papa” Lee]

It is always shocking to me how much we members depend on these witnesses as testaments of truth given that:

You mean the same way we believe the Bible based on the witnesses of Christ.

39 And we are witnesses of all things which he did both in the land of the Jews, and in Jerusalem; whom they slew and hanged on a tree: (Acts 10: 39)

Try again.

Pa Pa

[California]

It's a conundrum really, but not an impossible one: You can't fully understand it unless you've experienced it, but you can't experience it unless you have faith, and for some unless you can understand it, you can't have faith in it. To borrow from another thread, I believe it is still a fair challenge.

From Ephesians 4:

17. This I say therefore, and testify in the Lord, that ye henceforth walk not as other Gentiles walk, in the vanity of their mind,

18. Having the understanding darkened, being alienated from the life of God through the ignorance that is in them, because of the blindness of their heart:

It is a different kind of intelligence I think, that brings people to an understanding of the truths that can't be seen. Looking at corporeal evidence is certainly an easy way to get at things. I can see the appeal.

[Neighbor]

[quote name='moriancamur' It is mormon logic of course that since the fruits of gospel living is the Spirit, which can be individually proven to be true by everyone who with faith lives it, that every detail of these witnesses must be true. Whether that logic is right I don't know and neither do I personally find it important to my life. It only becomes so when looking for reason not to believe, more than it does to those looking for reason to believe. This is because we rely on our personal testimony above just about anything. A loss of testimony increases the relevance of these questions to the individual as the faith in those personal experiences diminishes. That faith is replaced with a reliance on physical evidence only and questions apparently spiritual phenomenon that are not repeatable by you personally. So in fairness you have raised a genuine issue that has merit in the world at large. All the fervent belief of the various sects cannot reconcile with each other. That is evidence that people can be deceived as groups on many issues and believe enough to lay down their lives for that belief. Incredible human trait.

[Neighbor]

'moriancamur' It is mormon logic of course that since the fruits of gospel living is the Spirit, which can be individually proven to be true by everyone who with faith lives it, that every detail of these witnesses must be true. Whether that logic is right I don't know and neither do I personally find it important to my life. It only becomes so when looking for reason not to believe, more than it does to those looking for reason to believe. This is because we rely on our personal testimony above just about anything. A loss of testimony increases the relevance of these questions to the individual as the faith in those personal experiences diminishes. That faith is replaced with a reliance on physical evidence only and questions apparently spiritual phenomenon that are not repeatable by you personally. So in fairness you have raised a genuine issue that has merit in the world at large. All the fervent belief of the various sects cannot reconcile with each other. That is evidence that people can be deceived as groups on many issues and believe enough to lay down their lives for that belief. Incredible human trait.

Good points moriancamur. Those who come to Christ do so via many pathways, but each, to be true faith, must enter in that Gate to the Lords fold. We learn to hear and obey His voice. The testimony we gain by becoming faithful to Him is quite different than simply relying on a physical (imperical) witness. Each of us gains a spiritual witness according to our life of faith.

That is why I think we need to hear and obey Jesus in matters of faith. He said if we build our lives/faith on His teaching that no storm can shake the foundations of our house. Why look to the testimony of others about the matter? I think the strongest testimony one can have is not about a book, but about the relationship we grow in with the Lord and His ways in our hearts and lives as we hear and obey Him. It is about the book as the book relates His promises/precepts/commandments/judgments. Said book must give those teachings that are also verified by God as true when we do what He said. Jesus said that the truth of the teaching being from God is known by the doing of it.