Atheism Deconstructed

[Bach]

Oh come on. An inability to quantify a "reason" scientifically doesn't mean that there was no reason in mind when the decision was made. Do you know of any conceivable way to quantify faith? How about righteousness (remember that we are judged based on not only our works, but also the light we have been given)? How about spiritual need for trial? For alleviation?

You make an interesting bait-and-switch here. Now we're talking about "spiritual" rewards, and it doesn't matter whether you find your car keys, or if you cure your grandmother's breast cancer, or if you ever find those pesky WsMD -- it's all about the eternal progression. I admit that science can say nothing contrary to this idea. But this idea isn't all that people say about God. They say that He DOES help to find car keys, cure instances of cancer, and impart sound advice in international relations. Those claims can be falsified; and indeed, they have been.

[bluebell]

I suppose that God, if He exists, may have His own reasons for doing whatever... but if he doesn't heal people who are prayed for more often than those who are not, then it's bizarre to ascribe traits like "prayer-answering" or "righteousness-loving" to Him. When that happens, God is less and less like the God we all were taught about in Sunday School and more like the Einsteinian deity, which really is more like none at all.

I disagree.

The God that i have always been taught about in sunday school has always reserved the right to say 'no' when a blessing or healing is desired and has frequently done so-even the scriptures tell us that God does not always interviene.

Even Christ had one of His prayer requests denied-because it was not the will of God to answer it.

Prayer is not our attempt to change God's will around to mirror our own. It is the way we bring our will into alignment with His. If what we ask for is not God's will then it will not occur, regardless of how much we pray for it or how righteous we are-

It is also the way that we gain access to blessings that God is very willing to bestow but which He does not offer to us unless we ask for them.

To suggest that this mode of answering prayers means that God doesn't answer them or doesn't bless the righteous is to misunderstand good parenting.

After all-what parent would allow their kid to eat candy all day long if they asked REALLY sincerely and tried hard to be REALLY good all day long?

Sometimes, as parents, we have to say 'no' and as all parents know, when we do say 'no' to something our kids want very badly that is not in their best interest, it is in no way a reflection of the amount of love we have for them or whether or not they have been 'good' that day.

[Mighty Curelom]

The God that i have always been taught about in sunday school has always reserved the right to say 'no' when a blessing or healing is desired and has frequently done so-even the scriptures tell us that God does not always interviene.

Even Christ had one of His prayer requests denied-because it was not the will of God to answer it.

Right. I get that God doesn't heal everyone you pray for. He only does it if it's his will, and if you're humble, and if you scratch off 3 cherries in a row, and whatever other excuses people make for the dismal success rate of prayer. But even taking into account that God will only grant your wishes when it suits him, and even taking into account the rationalization that some "answered" prayers will result in the person getting sicker and dying, we should still be able to measure some difference in recovery between a population of prayed-for patients and a control population of non-prayed-for patients. If God's response to ten prayers is to ignore 5, answer 4 in a non-measurable way (such as not healing the patient but making them feel at peace with their eminent demise), and heal just one prayer recipient, the prayed-for population would have a 10% better recovery rate than the control. If a prayed-for group doesn't recover at any statistically significant difference from the control, then we've successfully debunked the notion that prayer has any power to heal the sick. It would demonstrate that one has exactly the same chances of recovering whether they're prayed for or not, regardless of what God's will is on the subject.

[bluebell]

Right. I get that God doesn't heal everyone you pray for. He only does it if it's his will, and if you're humble, and if you scratch off 3 cherries in a row, and whatever other excuses people make for the dismal success rate of prayer. But even taking into account that God will only grant your wishes when it suits him, and even taking into account the rationalization that some "answered" prayers will result in the person getting sicker and dying, we should still be able to measure some difference in recovery between a population of prayed-for patients and a control population of non-prayed-for patients. If God's response to ten prayers is to ignore 5, answer 4 in a non-measurable way (such as not healing the patient but making them feel at peace with their eminent demise), and heal just one prayer recipient, the prayed-for population would have a 10% better recovery rate than the control. If a prayed-for group doesn't recover at any statistically significant difference from the control, then we've successfully debunked the notion that prayer has any power to heal the sick. It would demonstrate that one has exactly the same chances of recovering whether they're prayed for or not, regardless of what God's will is on the subject.

Well, before i even entertain this idea you would have to show how such an experiment could EVER hope to produce accurate findings. It seems to me that there are too many uncontrollable and non-measurable factors impacting the outcome for such a study to give any truly useful data.

Some unknowns that would impact the findings-

Does the person being prayed for have faith in God?

Do the people praying have faith in God?

Do they honestly care about the people being prayed for or is it a pray in words only for the sake of the study?

To me though, the most important reason that such an experiment cannot possibly be measured in terms of number of healed people = existence of God answered prayers came right from your own mouth-

An answered pray can be completely non-measurable, which means that 1 healing is not necessary to prove that prayers are answered. Zero healings but some non-meansurable answers would STILL support that God hears and answers prayers.

Likewise, 10 answers of 'no' (though still completely unmeasurable) would also not equate to God not answering prayers-it only means that He didn't answer for those 10 people.

To put it in a more normal perspective-it would be like taking 10 women trying to get pregnant-introducing sperm into their bodies and then claiming, if none of them did get pregnant, that it was because babies don't exist.

First, Such a simple experiment is too broad and could never give any real answers concerning pregnancy rates among women because too much is left unknown.

Second, the conclusion is not warrented given the number of unknowns in the experiment and more importantly, the number of babies born each year-even though none of them were born to the ten women in question.

[Mighty Curelom]

Likewise, 10 answers of 'no' (though still completely unmeasurable) would also not equate to God not answering prayers-it only means that He didn't answer for those 10 people.

When I mentioned "God's response to ten prayers," I wasn't talking about literally ten prayers. Haven't you ever heard the phrase "One in ten people (insert interesting fact)"? When you hear such statistics, do you think to yourself "That's a silly statistic--you can't tell anything from just 10 people"?

By "one in ten" I'm referring to a ratio of 1 to 10. Obviously any worthwhile study would involve more than ten people. (Honestly...do I really have to point this out??)

[bluebell]

When I mentioned "God's response to ten prayers," I wasn't talking about literally ten prayers. Haven't you ever heard the phrase "One in ten people (insert interesting fact)"? When you hear such statistics, do you think to yourself "That's a silly statistic--you can't tell anything from just 10 people"?

By "one in ten" I'm referring to a ratio of 1 to 10. Obviously any worthwhile study would involve more than ten people. (Honestly...do I really have to point this out??)

My point was not that the number in the study was too small-it was that the study as a whole was set up so it would be impossible to get accurate results for the reasons (that you didn't comment on) that i mentioned.

To many unknowns and no way to discount the answered prayers that (though perhaps not happening in the study) did occur through-out the world.

[Scottie]

So then what is the point of prayer? God will heal or not heal whomever according to the grand plan. Our prayers/priesthood blessings have absolutely no ability to sway this plan.

Given 2 cancer patients. Neither have had any priesthood blessings or prayers given in their behalf. One will miraculously fully recover, one will die. This is according to God's plan.

Now, lets say that they both get priesthood blessings and many many prayers. One will miraculously fully recover and one will die. This is according to God's plan.

It seems to me that the plan is in control of our fates, not God...

[bluebell]

So then what is the point of prayer? God will heal or not heal whomever according to the grand plan. Our prayers/priesthood blessings have absolutely no ability to sway this plan.

Given 2 cancer patients. Neither have had any priesthood blessings or prayers given in their behalf. One will miraculously fully recover, one will die. This is according to God's plan.

Now, lets say that they both get priesthood blessings and many many prayers. One will miraculously fully recover and one will die. This is according to God's plan.

It seems to me that the plan is in control of our fates, not God...

Not at all scottie-it's just a misunderstanding of how prayer works and it's purpose.

From the bible dictionary-

"As soon as we learn the true relationship in which we stand toward God (namely, God is our Father, and we are his children), then at once prayer becomes natural and instinctive on our part (Matt. 7: 7-11). Many of the so-called difficulties about prayer arise from forgetting this relationship. Prayer is the act by which the will of the Father and the will of the child are brought into correspondence with each other. The object of prayer is not to change the will of God, but to secure for ourselves and for others blessings that God is already willing to grant, but that are made conditional on our asking for them. Blessings require some work or effort on our part before we can obtain them. Prayer is a form of work, and is an appointed means for obtaining the highest of all blessings."

[Scottie]

Not at all scottie-it's just a misunderstanding of how prayer works and it's purpose.

From the bible dictionary-

"As soon as we learn the true relationship in which we stand toward God (namely, God is our Father, and we are his children), then at once prayer becomes natural and instinctive on our part (Matt. 7: 7-11). Many of the so-called difficulties about prayer arise from forgetting this relationship. Prayer is the act by which the will of the Father and the will of the child are brought into correspondence with each other. The object of prayer is not to change the will of God, but to secure for ourselves and for others blessings that God is already willing to grant, but that are made conditional on our asking for them. Blessings require some work or effort on our part before we can obtain them. Prayer is a form of work, and is an appointed means for obtaining the highest of all blessings."

So you are saying that for some people the possibility of divine healing exists as a conditional blessing, but they have to ask God for it first?

[fatherofone]

Not at all scottie-it's just a misunderstanding of how prayer works and it's purpose.

From the bible dictionary-

"As soon as we learn the true relationship in which we stand toward God (namely, God is our Father, and we are his children), then at once prayer becomes natural and instinctive on our part (Matt. 7: 7-11). Many of the so-called difficulties about prayer arise from forgetting this relationship. Prayer is the act by which the will of the Father and the will of the child are brought into correspondence with each other. The object of prayer is not to change the will of God, but to secure for ourselves and for others blessings that God is already willing to grant, but that are made conditional on our asking for them. Blessings require some work or effort on our part before we can obtain them. Prayer is a form of work, and is an appointed means for obtaining the highest of all blessings."

so you guys are saying prayer in no way changes gods mind nor do priesthood blessings, if that is the case I agree with scottie what is the point

[bluebell]

So you are saying that for some people the possibility of divine healing exists as a conditional blessing, but they have to ask God for it first?

yes.

Who knows how many blessings we haven't received because we never asked for them.

And not all blessings are conditional upon us asking for them, but some are.

[bluebell]

so you guys are saying prayer in no way changes gods mind nor do priesthood blessings, if that is the case I agree with scottie what is the point

No-that's not what i am saying....

Prayer does not change God's will-but it does allow His will to be accomplished in our lives in ways that it wouldn't otherwise.

For example-and this isn't a great example but it illustrates the point.

When i take my kids with me to the grocery store. I don't take them to the candy isle and tell them to pick out something so i can buy it for them. Every once in a blue moon i'll get them a piece of candy without them asking but not very often-once every few months.

And usually, if they manage to go the whole time in the store without asking for any candy-then they don't get any.

However, sometimes they do spot something they would like (m&m's or something) and i allow them to get it.

Not always, sometimes my will is that they not have a snack that day and no amount of asking is going to change that-but if i really don't mind for whatever reason, then them asking directly impacts them receiving.

Like i said, it's not the perfect example because prayer and us 'asking our parents for things' are not that similar.

The purpose of prayer is not for us to try and get things-it's a way for us to change our will to be God's. It's a part of the 'what manner of man ought you to be' process. It's a teaching tool in ways that us asking someone for something can't really mimic.

But it's a similar idea.

[fatherofone]

No-that's not what i am saying....

Prayer does not change God's will-but it does allow His will to be accomplished in our lives in ways that it wouldn't otherwise.

For example-and this isn't a great example but it illustrates the point.

When i take my kids with me to the grocery store. I don't take them to the candy isle and tell them to pick out something so i can buy it for them. Every once in a blue moon i'll get them a piece of candy without them asking but not very often-once every few months.

And usually, if they manage to go the whole time in the store without asking for any candy-then they don't get any.

However, sometimes they do spot something they would like (m&m's or something) and i allow them to get it.

Not always, sometimes my will is that they not have a snack that day and no amount of asking is going to change that-but if i really don't mind for whatever reason, then them asking directly impacts them receiving.

Like i said, it's not the perfect example because prayer and us 'asking our parents for things' are not that similar.

The purpose of prayer is not for us to try and get things-it's a way for us to change our will to be God's. It's a part of the 'what manner of man ought you to be' process. It's a teaching tool in ways that us asking someone for something can't really mimic.

But it's a similar idea.

so what of priesthood blessings then?

[bluebell]

so what of priesthood blessings then?

The guide to the scriptures states about blessings-

"All blessings are based on eternal laws (D&C 130: 20-21). Because God wants his children to find joy in life (2 Ne. 2: 25), he grants blessings to them as a result of their obedience to his commandments (D&C 82: 10), in answer to a prayer or priesthood ordinance (D&C 19: 38; 107: 65-67), or through his grace (2 Ne. 25: 23). "

This isn't just referring to priesthood blessings but all blessings from God.

Basically though, they operate, as i understand them, like prayer does.

They don't have the power to change the will of God but they allow God to bless the receiver in ways that He could not if the blessing was not sought.

From personal experinece, i know that i've had blessings that relieved pain and suffering and where i kicked myself for not asking for one sooner because i had no doubt that the pain would have been alleviated sooner if i had thought to ask for such.

And i had no doubt that if i had not had a blessing at all that the pain and discomfort would not have been alleviated at all.

[fatherofone]

The guide to the scriptures states about blessings-

"All blessings are based on eternal laws (D&C 130: 20-21). Because God wants his children to find joy in life (2 Ne. 2: 25), he grants blessings to them as a result of their obedience to his commandments (D&C 82: 10), in answer to a prayer or priesthood ordinance (D&C 19: 38; 107: 65-67), or through his grace (2 Ne. 25: 23). "

This isn't just referring to priesthood blessings but all blessings from God.

Basically though, they operate, as i understand them, like prayer does.

They don't have the power to change the will of God but they allow God to bless the receiver in ways that He could not if the blessing was not sought.

From personal experinece, i know that i've had blessings that relieved pain and suffering and where i kicked myself for not asking for one sooner because i had no doubt that the pain would have been alleviated sooner if i had thought to ask for such.

And i had no doubt that if i had not had a blessing at all that the pain and discomfort would not have been alleviated at all.

guess I don't understand, but what else is new

[bluebell]

guess I don't understand, but what else is new

I'm sorry, maybe someone else can explain it better than i can-maybe it's a good topic for a new thread.

[fatherofone]

I'm sorry, maybe someone else can explain it better than i can-maybe it's a good topic for a new thread.

not your fault I appreciate your effort, I just always thought prayer to was to petition God to help us, and I always thought that priesthood blessings were to heal and help people, in your explanation it made it seem as though all this was already predetermined making prayer and priesthood blessings mute...

[Scottie]

It's a good point though. Is a blessing really just a more powerful prayer? Is there such a thing? Why can't prayer just stand on it's own merits? If I pray that the pain be taken away, why isn't that good enough? Why do 2 guys have to put their hands on my head in order for the blessing that God is ready to give to REALLY take hold? Why can't He release that blessing when I pray for it? Wow...that's a lot of questions there...

[fatherofone]

It's a good point though. Is a blessing really just a more powerful prayer? Is there such a thing? Why can't prayer just stand on it's own merits? If I pray that the pain be taken away, why isn't that good enough? Why do 2 guys have to put their hands on my head in order for the blessing that God is ready to give to REALLY take hold? Why can't He release that blessing when I pray for it? Wow...that's a lot of questions there...

not sure that one is more powerful then the other, I always priesthood blessings were like direct line to Gods will, but perhaps not

[Tarski]

So then what is the point of prayer? God will heal or not heal whomever according to the grand plan. Our prayers/priesthood blessings have absolutely no ability to sway this plan.

It just makes God feel good to know that we are willing to beg even though we know that statistically it will make no difference?

[bluebell]

It just makes God feel good to know that we are willing to beg even though we know that statistically it will make no difference?

Yes, tarski hit the nail on the head.

[bluebell]

It's a good point though. Is a blessing really just a more powerful prayer? Is there such a thing? Why can't prayer just stand on it's own merits? If I pray that the pain be taken away, why isn't that good enough? Why do 2 guys have to put their hands on my head in order for the blessing that God is ready to give to REALLY take hold? Why can't He release that blessing when I pray for it? Wow...that's a lot of questions there...

Good questions-i don't know all the answers either.

Why did Christ have to spit in some dirt and rub it on a guys eyes to heal him when He didn't have to do that for all HIs healings?

I don't know.

Maybe Priesthood blessings are God's way of helping us have the faith necessary for the healing. Or maybe they are God's way in letting people serve each other and aid in the healing process.

Maybe priesthood blessings serve the same function as when i sometimes let my 5 year old help my 2 year old get dressed even though it's faster and easier for me to do myself.

Maybe it's none of those reasons-

I think it's a good thing to ponder and pray on though.

[Thama]

You make an interesting bait-and-switch here. Now we're talking about "spiritual" rewards, and it doesn't matter whether you find your car keys, or if you cure your grandmother's breast cancer, or if you ever find those pesky WsMD -- it's all about the eternal progression. I admit that science can say nothing contrary to this idea. But this idea isn't all that people say about God. They say that He DOES help to find car keys, cure instances of cancer, and impart sound advice in international relations. Those claims can be falsified; and indeed, they have been.

No, you've missed the point entirely. We aren't now talking about spiritual rewards. The ability and willingness of God to intercede in our lives is directly tied to our spiritual state. This is certainly not a consistent linear relationship, as God's primary concern is greater than making our lives physically comfortable, but a central theme of the BoM and D&C is that blessings come through faith, obedience, humility, etc. Never mind that simply trying to come up with a way to measure obedience would be, if not impossible, close to it. You still have to deal with faith, humility, etc. which are patently unquantifiable. You might somehow be able to measure "blessings received" in some non-arbitrary way (though I doubt it) but you'd never be able to quantify anything to correlate it to.

Don't pretend that something has been tested and falsified when nothing of the sort has occurred.