Racist Elder Stapley Letter To Gov. George Romney

[jadams_4242]

May I ask how it is that the Boston Globe happened to come into possession of this letter? I can't really imagine that Geo. Romney's heirs just now decided to dig it out of his files and send it to the Globe.

(It occurrs to me that, in the wake of the Dan Rather fiasco, people have learned that they used typewriters, not Microsoft Word, during the 1960's... )

Microsoft word?

This sounds interesting, how can you tell?

[Severian]

Was Elder Stapley eventually excommunicated for this letter?

[Hawkmoon]

Was Elder Stapley eventually excommunicated for this letter?

Why would he be excommunicated?

[SolarPowered]

Microsoft word?

This sounds interesting, how can you tell?

How can one tell, what?

[katherine the great]

Was Elder Stapley eventually excommunicated for this letter?

I'm assuming you are joking. Considering the request of the apostle to not share the letter's contents, I doubt Governor Romney sent a copy to Elder Stapley's Bishop!

[Hawkmoon]

I'm assuming you are joking. Considering the request of the apostle to not share the letter's contents, I doubt Governor Romney sent a copy to Elder Stapley's Bishop!

Even if that was not the case-- exactly what would he be excommunicated for?

[jadams_4242]

How can one tell, what?

Were you not indicating microsoft word? {thats what i got}

[SolarPowered]

Were you not indicating microsoft word? {thats what i got}

I still don't understand the question you are asking. I will attempt to address the general subject.

The Dan Rather forgeries in 2004 were definitively identified as forgeries when it was observed that they were typed in Microsoft Word using the default settings. (That is, the default, proportionally-spaced Times New Roman typeface, the default font size, the default margin settings, and automatic promotion of "th" to superscript type. One could type the text of those documents into Word with the default setting, overlay the resulting printouts over the documents in question, and easily see that they were an exact match.)

What should have been obvious to the forger(s) is that there were no desktop publishing systems in use in the late 1960's/early 1970's. Correspondence such as the suspect documents was produced on typewriters that used monospaced typefaces.

My original comment was intended to allude to the Dan Rather debacle, and suggest that political document forgers would likely have learned from that episode, and realized that they need to use actual typewriters to forge documents that purport to be from the 1960's, rather than Microsoft Word.

[Hawkmoon]

I still don't understand the question you are asking. I will attempt to address the general subject.

The Dan Rather forgeries in 2004 were definitively identified as forgeries when it was observed that they were typed in Microsoft Word using the default settings. (That is, the default, proportionally-spaced Times New Roman typeface, the default font size, the default margin settings, and automatic promotion of "th" to superscript type. One could type the text of those documents into Word with the default setting, overlay the resulting printouts over the documents in question, and easily see that they were an exact match.)

What should have been obvious to the forger(s) is that there were no desktop publishing systems in use in the late 1960's/early 1970's. Correspondence such as the suspect documents was produced on typewriters that used monospaced typefaces.

My original comment was intended to allude to the Dan Rather debacle, and suggest that political document forgers would likely have learned from that episode, and realized that they need to use actual typewriters to forge documents that purport to be from the 1960's, rather than Microsoft Word.

I believe the question that is being asked is twofold:

1) Are you saying that this letter was created in Microsoft Word?

AND,

2) What evidence do you have to support this?

[Mighty Curelom]

Well, there's one thing we can all agree on: the church has come a long way with respect to racial attitudes. Right guys?

[jadams_4242]

I believe the question that is being asked is twofold:

1) Are you saying that this letter was created in Microsoft Word?

AND,

2) What evidence do you have to support this?

Yes that was my question!

[Severian]

Even if that was not the case-- exactly what would he be excommunicated for?

Because it seems so wrong, and the letter was written with a Church letterhead.

[SolarPowered]

I believe the question that is being asked is twofold:

1) Are you saying that this letter was created in Microsoft Word?

AND,

2) What evidence do you have to support this?

No, I'm saying that any forger who saw what happened in 2004 would not be so stupid as to use Microsoft Word to forge a letter that purports to be from the 1960's, and would certainly have obtained a vintage typewriter to use to forge the document.

Clearly, I am suggesting that it is possible that the letter was forged. I have no evidence that it in fact was, only the suspicions that have been expressed several times by various people in this thread. That is, that it's awfully convenient that this document suddenly shows up in the middle of the presidential campaign, when it is extremely unlikely that the Romney family would have dug through their files and released something like this.

I would like to see some information about the provenance of this letter.

[jadams_4242]

No, I'm saying that any forger who saw what happened in 2004 would not be so stupid as to use Microsoft Word to forge a letter that purports to be from the 1960's, and would certainly have obtained a vintage typewriter to use to forge the document.

Clearly, I am suggesting that it is possible that the letter was forged. I have no evidence that it in fact was, only the suspicions that have been expressed several times by various people in this thread. That is, that it's awfully convenient that this document suddenly shows up in the middle of the presidential campaign, when it is extremely unlikely that the Romney family would have dug through their files and released something like this.

Gotcha!

thanks.

[rameumptom]

What a horrible man.

In enlightened times, it is a horrible thing to say. The 1960s were not yet enlightened. It is as bad as Jesus telling the apostles of his day not to preach to the Gentiles. Telling a Canaanite woman that she and other Gentiles were "dogs" that weren't worthy to eat at the Master's table. Remember, the term "dog" is a major insult word in the Middle East. Shouldn't we condemn Jesus for being racist and discriminatory, as well?

I disagree with Elder Stapely's statement. But then, I've grown up differently than him, as well.

[Hawkmoon]

Because it seems so wrong, and the letter was written with a Church letterhead.

Ah! So if something "seems" wrong, and is written with a Church letterhead... in your mind that is grounds for excommunication... I see. Thankfully, you are not in a position to make that type of decision.

[katherine the great]

I believe the question that is being asked is twofold:

1) Are you saying that this letter was created in Microsoft Word?

AND,

2) What evidence do you have to support this?

Sheesh! He is saying that it definitely was NOT created in Word because no one would be stupid enough to do that after the Rather incident. If this letter was forged, the forgers used a typewriter.

[Hawkmoon]

Sheesh! He is saying that it definitely was NOT created in Word because no one would be stupid enough to do that after the Rather incident. If this letter was forged, the forgers used a typewriter.

You do recognize that I was only clarifying what jadams 4040 was asking-- as it was apparent they were talking past each other, right? To put a finer point on it, I never asked the question... sheesh!!

[RenegadeOfPhunk]

I don't think you know what capitalism is to be frank...

Fine. You want to 'educate' me on what capitalism 'really' means?

...then start a new thread. Or send me a PM.

For myself, I know enough to know that it has next to nothing to do with the subject of Stapley's letter.

Renegade: what kind of liberal ? That term has no meaning nowadays as it has been hijacked by pseudo-communists of all stripes.

I mean Libertarianism. What else?

If you think that equates to 'communists', or even 'pseudo-communists', then I'd worry less about the hijackers.

I'd be worring more about your ability to be hijacked.

[jadams_4242]

Well, there's one thing we can all agree on: the church has come a long way with respect to racial attitudes. Right guys?

If yer trying to say the twelve dont have any blacks yet or hispanics e.t.c,

L.O.L ! the lord calls whom he calls, he does not call racial quotas.

[Hawkmoon]

If yer trying to say the twelve dont have any blacks yet or hispanics e.t.c,

L.O.L ! the lord calls whom he calls, he does not call racial quotas.

He would if he was enlightened.

[Cold Steel]

Yet there were plenty of people who didn't espouse such disgusting views.

Yes, they were horribly ignorant views and there were many of the general authorities that did not espouse such views. And President McKay did make the matter of the priesthood a matter of deep prayer to the point he was apparently rebuked by the Lord, so Elder Stapley's view that when the Lord was ready, He'd command it, was not accurate at all. President Kimball also made it a matter of fervent prayer.

But there were many good, decent people of that time who held backward views regarding Blacks. I held such views until I was well into my thirties. I'd been bussed into black schools in the 60s and had been beaten up continuously, along with many other Whites. I considered them animals who should be forever segregated from the White communities as far as schools were concerned. I saw my high school go from one of the top ten in the state to one of the worst. White kids had to travel in groups of two or more for safety and we were constantly having our money taken from us. Still, we didn't tolerate interracial relationships. Things go so bad, in fact, that in about 1969, our school actually saw race riots with Blacks on one side of the school and Whites on the other, with cops, decked in riot gear, in between. To make things worse, many of the Black activists, including the Black Panthers and others were cozying up with the communists, which also made the cause an unpopular one.

There have always been people who have risen above the stupidity and ignorance of their era; people on the "cutting edge" of societal progress. LDS church leadership is and has always been devoid of such people.

This is simply not true. There were many who wanted to reverse the priesthood policy, both in the lower and the higher quorums. Also among the members, especially as we got away from being a "Utah church" and began to become a global one. It took me years to change my views, and the LDS church helped me a great deal in this regard.

Elder David Haight recorded that Elder Stapley was in the hospital when the 1978 revelation was given but added that it was accepted by all: "Then in that room within the Lord's holy house, we were witnesses that the answer came to the Lord's prophet. The Spirit touched each of our hearts with the same message in the same way. Each was witness to a transcendent heavenly event. President Kimball arose from the altar. (We surrounded it according to seniority, I being number twelve.) For some unknown reason, he turned to his right, and I was the first member of the circle he encountered. He put his arms around me, and as I embraced him I felt the beating of his heart and the intense emotion that filled him. He then continued around the circle, embracing each of the Brethren. No one spoke. Overcome with emotion, we simply shook hands.... (Quoted by Lucille C. Tate, David B. Haight, The Life Story of a Disciple, Salt Lake City, Utah: Bookcraft, 1987, pp. 278-280.)

Elder Stapley sustained the revelation and was perhaps himself also a recipient of it prior to his death.

[Hoops22]

Well, there's one thing we can all agree on: the church has come a long way with respect to racial attitudes. Right guys?

Priceless jab. Well done.

[katherine the great]

Priceless jab. Well done.

Well, they are all very European looking. I can't help but notice how extraordinarily handsome Elder Uchtdorf (sp?) is. I also can't help but notice that there are no women in the picture.

[RenegadeOfPhunk]

I also can't help but notice that there are no women in the picture.

*double takes*

...woah - your right...!

Their all wearing suits too...