Bom Wars, Episode 3: Return Of The Nehemi

[Nevo]

After you spend over 50 years pondering the message of the BofM and correlating all of the 500+ descriptions of geography in the text, as I have , then come back and ask me if I should discount the possibility that one word in the Old World context of the geography should not be different from the names of people, which were not usually used to name geographic features, used during the 1000 years of the New World context.

This is a bit misleading I think. As I am sure you know, the Book of Mormon names ending in -om/-um "used during the 1000 [actually 2,000+] years of the New World context" are not confined to "the names of people, which were not usually used to name geographic features." Indeed, they also appear as names of places (Mosiah 7:5, 21; Alma 23:12; 31:3; 56:14; 3 Nephi 9:7; Mormon 4:3; Ether 9:3; 15:8 ), animals (Ether 9:19), food crops (Mosiah 9:9), and monetary units (Alma 11:3, 6, 16).

I see no reason to single out Nahom for special etymological consideration.

[poulsenll]

Que?

That was adressed to Nevo not you Her Amun. He wanted to know if I thought the relationship he proposed was sheer coincidence.

Es que a veces pierdo paciencia con personas que en un lado niegan las relaciones entre la geografia y el texto del Libro deMormon, llamandolas coincidencias y entonces quieren que acceptemos sus coindidencias como prueba que el Libro de Mormon fue escrito por Jose Smith.

Larry P

[Nevo]

Es que a veces pierdo paciencia con personas que en un lado niegan las relaciones entre la geografia y el texto del Libro deMormon, llamandolas coincidencias y entonces quieren que acceptemos sus coindidencias como prueba que el Libro de Mormon fue escrito por Jose Smith.

Larry P

"Tambi

[Olavarria]

That was adressed to Nevo not you Her Amun. He wanted to know if I thought the relationship he proposed was sheer coincidence.

Es que a veces pierdo paciencia con personas que en un lado niegan las relaciones entre la geografia y el texto del Libro deMormon, llamandolas coincidencias y entonces quieren que acceptemos sus coindidencias como prueba que el Libro de Mormon fue escrito por Jose Smith.

Larry P

asi es

http://www.yobserver.com/environment/1008469.html

SANA'A - The Seismology Center of Yemen has registered seismic tremors in Ethiopia, and indicated that Yemeni territories could be affected, Chairman of the Yemen Geological Survey Authority, Ismail Al-Jonaid, has said.

Al-Jonaid said the tremors could affect the western beaches of Yemen on the Red Sea.

Seismologists are preparing for stronger tremors and are ready to warn of areas at risk.

The Pertain Company Zincox is scheduled to start extracting zinc, lead and silver from the Nehem region of Sana'a, geological sources say.

The sources said an agreement was signed last week by Pertain and the Authority of the Geologic Area, to be submitted to the Higher Council for Economic Affairs for approval.

Yemeni and foreign experts on the project are preparing a digital map to locate minerals in the country.

Agricultural Researches Organization experts have meanwhile completed the first map of natural resources in Yemen.

The map is a seven-chapter reference for Yemen's agricultural crops, water resources, vegetation and climate diversity.

[Phillistine]

I think the bottom line is that there is so much room for conjecture, this can't be called "strong" evidence.

There are numerous contra-evidences of the Book of Mormon geography. There are also several apparent confirmations. The problem is, any of these "evidences" can be skillfully argued to support either supposition. All they tend to do is make believers more faithful and non-belivers more opposed. In the end, most archeological evidences become divisive factors rather than uniting forces.

A logical scientific approach would look at broad evidences.

Language: there should be significant surviving remnants of Egyptian and Semitic language elements in native american tounges

Plausible Geography: BoM geography should be relatively easy to correlate to general and even some specific geographic features

Oral and Written Histories: The BoM events are not so distant that oral traditions of indigenes wouldn't have some correlation to these events, especially that last big war that wiped out the Nephites.

Archeological Evidence: Archeological evidence should provide a relatively broad support of timing of events such as foundation of cities, wars, living norms, architecture, traditions, animal husbandry, etc.

Genome Evidence: middle-eastern descent should be present in some parts of indigenous peoples since the Nephites, Lamanites, Jaredites, etc. all herald from that area

Most importantly, such a study must be undertaken by someone who is willing to accept the evidence, no matter what it "says". So far, all I see are people beating each other over the head with their "evidence". The first casualty of such a battle is almost always the truth. Henry Eyring said it best, "we're not required to believe anything but the truth."

Anybody up for funding such an endeavor? There's a bit of risk. You might not like the result.

[Nevo]

A logical scientific approach would look at broad evidences. . . . such a study must be undertaken by someone who is willing to accept the evidence, no matter what it "says". So far, all I see are people beating each other over the head with their "evidence".

Welcome to the board, Phillistine!

Your proposal sounds good but it seems to imply that the evidence would "speak for itself." Do you think that is a reasonable expectation?

Terryl Givens has suggested that there exists (or should exist) a perfect balance between reasons to believe and reasons to disbelieve, so that the heart "is truly free to choose belief or cynicism, faith or faithlessness" (Terryl L. Givens, "'Lightning Out of Heaven': Joseph Smith and the Forging of Community," BYU Studies 45, no. 1 [2006]: 18). If this is correct, then we shouldn't expect to find definitive evidence either for or against the Book of Mormon.

Elsewhere, however, Givens has said that we still need to address the question of how the particulars of Joseph Smith's "past worlds" hold up: "If we are to see his project as truly historical rather than as simply mythic, then ultimately, the worlds of the Nephites and the Jaredites and of Enoch . . . cannot resist examination as the historical records they purport to be" (Givens, "Joseph Smith: Prophecy, Process, and Plenitude," BYU Studies 44, no. 4 [2005]: 67).

So I'm not sure where that leaves us. If the particulars of Joseph's past worlds don't hold up, I don't see how Givens's conditions of equilibrium and balance can still obtain--unless "simply mythic" past worlds can still give us sufficient reasons to believe. In any case, I suppose we always come back to Henry Eyring's statement: "we're not required to believe anything but the truth."

[SquarePeg48]

Nibley has made a good case for jaredites surviving the "final" battle(which would explain alot of "mulekite" history), if that is the case then the BoM doesnt have three "discrete" cultural-historical periods, but rather 3 interlated historical periods.

At any rate, this really doesnt explain the Nehem/Nahom correlation that goes beyond mere etymology but includes a real world pre-islamic arabian geography.

I was not aware of Nibley's case for this, but it certainly makes me feel better about my own long-standing view that such was the case. As a historian, it has not happened that I am aware that the destruction of a civilization=the destruction of all the population, and particularly the menial, peasant population. Cultural traditions are strong among these people: witness for instance, the continued Mayan language and tradition among indigenous peoples of Meso-America well into modern times despite the destruction of Mayan civilization by other groups including Europeans. Or consider the fact that despite the best efforts of the Catholic church for over 1500 years, in Ireland the Celtic ritual and religion have survived and are making a huge comeback. My point is that it is unreasonable in light of history to assume the destruction of Jaredite armies and civilization would not leave significant segments of the culture to go on farming, practicing their rituals, and eventually intermarrying with Mulekites, Lamanites, and eventually Nephites. By this intermarriage, trading, and other contact, the rituals would have, as did Caananite ritual in the Old Testament, contaminated and eventually been morphed into something including idol worship, human sacrifice, etc. It has always seemed to me that such rituals have a power and appeal to the human thought process that has repeatedly overcome the worship of the true God of heaven and earth.

I think the bottom line is that there is so much room for conjecture, this can't be called "strong" evidence.

Genome Evidence: middle-eastern descent should be present in some parts of indigenous peoples since the Nephites, Lamanites, Jaredites, etc. all herald from that area

Does anyone recall a fairly recent article (within the last 2 years or so) describing genetic studies that are aimed at helping those unaware of their heritage to determine the part of the world from which their ancestry hails? I was struck by a statement that the only 2 groups that could not be positively identified were Middle Eastern and Native American, because their genetics could be confused for one another. I'd be interested to find out why that is...and does it point to some kind of genetic relationship?

[poulsenll]

I've merely called attention to David Wright's trenchant observations regarding Nahom and the Book of Mormon onomasticon, which should, I think, at least give us pause when positing a connection between Nahom and Nehhem.

I'm not out to "prove" that the Book of Mormon was written by Joseph Smith (although I am not unsympathetic to that perspective). I just don't like to see apologists overstating their case. And the Nahom = Nehhem connection has not, in my view, been established beyond a reasonable doubt.

There will always be a reasonable doubt for any single evidence for the Book of Mormon. That is why we are commanded to seek to understand its truthfulness by faith and prayer. Without this confirming evidence, there will always be doubt.

As Brant Gardner has pointed out, it is not the single event that gives support but when several events converge to shed new understanding beyond that present in any one event when viewed by itself, that one can claim support, not proof, for the premise.

Larry P

[Olavarria]

Language: there should be significant surviving remnants of Egyptian and Semitic language elements in native american tounges

Why? My great grandfather was form the basque country. SHould anyof his 100(im guessing) puerto rican descendants be expected to have traces of basque found in their spanish?

Plausible Geography: BoM geography should be relatively easy to correlate to general and even some specific geographic features

I agree. This thread was about the OW context, and the BoM measures up pretty well. As for the NW, the BoM still passes this test.

Oral and Written Histories: The BoM events are not so distant that oral traditions of indigenes wouldn't have some correlation to these events, especially that last big war that wiped out the Nephites.

I dont know about this one. It presummes, like all of your other points, that the BoM took place on a hemispheric scale. I dont think the BoM itself can be used to defend anything but a limited geography.

"Our knowledge of ancient Maya thought must represent only a tiny fraction of the whole picture, for of the thousands of books in which the full extent of their learning and ritual was recorded, only four have survived to modern times (as though all that posterity knew of ourselves were to be based upon three prayer books and Pilgrim's Progress)." (Michael D. Coe, The Maya, London: Thames and Hudson, 4th ed., 1987, p. 161.)

Archeological Evidence: Archeological evidence should provide a relatively broad support of timing of events such as foundation of cities, wars, living norms, architecture, traditions, animal husbandry, etc.

read anything by sorenson or clarke

Genome Evidence: middle-eastern descent should be present in some parts of indigenous peoples since the Nephites, Lamanites, Jaredites, etc. all herald from that area

why?

I have alawas heard the accusation that nothing "nephite" has been found in the NA genome. That begs the questian, what is a nephite? What traits or background would a person need in order to be called a nephite? What traits would someone have in order to disqualify him as such? Once you define what a nephite is, then you would ask, "what would these people leave behind, and how would we recognize it?"

1)anyone who is not a lamanite. Jacob 1:13

2)political affiliation, loyal to the Nephi dynasty,kinda like Saudi, as in ibn Saud. Jacob 1:14

3)believer in the religion taught by Nephi and his descendants, kinda like a Sunni vs Shia. 4 Nephi 1:37

4) a blood descendant of Nephi. 3 Nephi 5:10

Given these definitions FROM THE BOM itself, what traces should we expect to find in the ruins or DNA? How would we recognize them? With two of these definitions, even Donny Osmond would be considered a Nephite!

[Olavarria]

There will always be a reasonable doubt for any single evidence for the Book of Mormon. That is why we are commanded to seek to understand its truthfulness by faith and prayer. Without this confirming evidence, there will always be doubt.

As Brant Gardner has pointed out, it is not the single event that gives support but when several events converge to shed new understanding beyond that present in any one event when viewed by itself, that one can claim support, not proof, for the premise.

Larry P

I still find it interesting, though not shocking, that people are unwilling to say , "ya, the BoM got the ancient arabian geography right, even down to a place name. but that doesnt mean everything else in the BoM is right."

That is what I would say if I wasnt a Mo.

[charity]

I still find it interesting, though not shocking, that people are unwilling to say , "ya, the BoM got the ancient arabian geography right, even down to a place name. but that doesnt mean everything else in the BoM is right."

That is what I would say if I wasnt a Mo.

But if a never or ex-Mo has to admit that the Book of Mormon is right about anything that could not have been known to Joseph Smith (or Sidney or Spaulding or any other 19th century person), then they have to accept the supernatural origin of the Book of Mormon.

How could they do anything else. I don't see another option.

[Olavarria]

But if a never or ex-Mo has to admit that the Book of Mormon is right about anything that could not have been known to Joseph Smith (or Sidney or Spaulding or any other 19th century person), then they have to accept the supernatural origin of the Book of Mormon.

How could they do anything else. I don't see another option.

They can alaways excersise a deep rooted faith in coincidence and use the "lucky guess" cop out.

[Nevo]

But if a never or ex-Mo has to admit that the Book of Mormon is right about anything that could not have been known to Joseph Smith (or Sidney or Spaulding or any other 19th century person), then they have to accept the supernatural origin of the Book of Mormon.

How could they do anything else. I don't see another option.

Have you ever seen this? Some "bull's-eyes" can be chalked up to random chance.

In this connection, I refer you to David Wright's comments on Book of Mormon names, from the thread linked earlier:

I have found that it is very easy to find etymological explanations for BM names. In the past, as a methodological control, I had people who have not known Hebrew make up lists of Old Testament sounding names. I was able to propose Hebrew etymologies for the majority of these invented names. Also, as a control, I attempted to find Hittite etymologies of BM names (no one claims the BM peoples were Hittites). This was relatively easy to do (e.g., nepisas "heaven" for Nephi; lahha "battle" for Lehi; pahhur "fire" for Pahoran; hilamanas "gate tower" for Helaman; etc.). [No one knew Hittite in Joseph Smith's day, but note how he gets all these right! Well, of course, the correspondences are just coincidence.]

Furthermore, the coincidental and artificial nature of etymological correlations for BM names is seen in multiple proposals that can be made for many names. Take "Nephi," for example: Nibley gives Egyptian etymologies. Others have connected the name with the Hebrew/Akkadian/Arabic root nph (hard h) "breathe, blow" or Arabic nph (middle hard h) "spread, be diffused" or Arabic nafaa "banish, expel." Which of all these etymologies are right; or, are they all wrong together? Actually, I believe the latter. In my view, the most realistic derivation is the literally corresponding "Nephi" in KJV Apocrypha 2 Maccabees 1:36; this derivation is supported by Smith's apparent use of the Apocrypha elsewhere, in composing the book of 1 Nephi, (especially Judith, for the slaying of Laban, and Tobit, for elements of the early history of Lehi's family). A similar multiplicity of etymologies exists for many other BM names.

[Nevo]

I still find it interesting, though not shocking, that people are unwilling to say , "ya, the BoM got the ancient arabian geography right, even down to a place name. but that doesnt mean everything else in the BoM is right."

That is what I would say if I wasnt a Mo.

Why would any non-believer say that Book of Mormon got the ancient Arabian geography right? There's no clear evidence that it did.

[Olavarria]

Have you ever seen this? Some "bull's-eyes" can be chalked up to random chance.

Your comparing BoM scholarship to te Bible Code? Your comparing the possibility of random rows of letters possibliy spelling out famous names, and "bloody deeds" the same as Nephi's description of the OW journey and its correlations with the actual old world? OK, fine. So you are acknowledging that the BoM has many bulls eyes. The difference be tween you and I is that you have alot more faith in chance than I do. Thats all Im going after. A acknowledgement of a bulls eye. Now, how that fits into a theological paradigm is quite another issue. You say chance, I say history. Yet the sampling of facts in the OP remain, as well as many others. http://farms.byu.edu/publications/bookscha...8&chapid=61

However you are not the first to use this kind of reasoning:

Helaman 16:

14 And aangels did appear unto men, wise men, and did declare unto them glad tidings of great joy; thus in this year the scriptures began to be fulfilled.

15 Nevertheless, the people began to harden their hearts, all save it were the most believing part of them, both of the Nephites and also of the Lamanites, and began to depend upon their aown strength and upon their own wisdom, saying:

16 Some things they may have guessed right, among so many; but behold, we know that all these great and marvelous works cannot come to pass, of which has been spoken.

17 And they began to reason and to contend among themselves, saying:

18 That it is anot reasonable that such a being as a Christ shall come; if so, and he be the Son of God, the Father of heaven and of earth, as it has been spoken, why will he not show himself unto us as well as unto them who shall be at Jerusalem?

19 Yea, why will he not show himself in this land as well as in the land of Jerusalem?

20 But behold, we know that this is a wicked atradition, which has been handed down unto us by our fathers, to cause us that we should believe in some great and marvelous thing which should come to pass, but not among us, but in a land which is far distant, a land which we know not; therefore they can keep us in ignorance, for we cannot bwitness with our own eyes that they are true.

21 And they will, by the cunning and the mysterious arts of the evil one, work some great mystery which we cannot understand, which will keep us down to be servants to their words, and also servants unto them, for we depend upon them to teach us the word; and thus will they keep us in ignorance if we will yield ourselves unto them, all the days of our lives.

22 And many more things did the people aimagine up in their hearts, which were foolish and bvain; and they were much disturbed, for Satan did stir them up to do iniquity continually; yea, he did go about spreading crumors and contentions upon all the face of the land, that he might harden the hearts of the people against that which was good and against that which should come.

Also, as a control, I attempted to find Hittite etymologies of BM names (no one claims the BM peoples were Hittites). This was relatively easy to do (e.g., nepisas "heaven" for Nephi; lahha "battle" for Lehi; pahhur "fire" for Pahoran; hilamanas "gate tower" for Helaman; etc.). [No one knew Hittite in Joseph Smith's day, but note how he gets all these right! Well, of course, the correspondences are just coincidence.]

When it comes to the etymologies of BoM names critics and below the level of amatuer apologists, like me, often fall into playing a game of "sound alike"-I have fallen into this trap before. For two words to simply sound alike can be attributed to chance. There are only so many ways in which the human mouth can make sound.

Is Moroni an Italian surname, a place in Comoros Africa, or does it mean "from Moron" as in Abu Musab al-Zarqawi? Is Alma a latin woman's name or the name of a hebrew man? Today, we know it is both. But again, how that affects your theology, if at all, is another story.

I think the better game to play is sound alike+is the name gender appropriate? Is it linguistically appropriate? Is it historical(were people actually called this, in this culture, at around this time period)? Does the author use the name in a way that show he knew the meaning(not alaways possible, ex. "Jenni loves pizza")?

Where there any hittites named "heaven"? Where their any hittites named "battle"? Where their any hittities named "fire" or "gate tower"? Where these mens names? I suspect that the answer is no. So yes, I would attribute this to chance.

Furthermore, the coincidental and artificial nature of etymological correlations for BM names is seen in multiple proposals that can be made for many names. Take "Nephi," for example: Nibley gives Egyptian etymologies. Others have connected the name with the Hebrew/Akkadian/Arabic root nph (hard h) "breathe, blow" or Arabic nph (middle hard h) "spread, be diffused" or Arabic nafaa "banish, expel." Which of all these etymologies are right; or, are they all wrong together? Actually, I believe the latter.

Again, where there any arabs named "hard"? Where their any arabs named "banish"? Where these mens names? I suspect that the answer is no. So yes, I would attribute this to chance.

In my view, the most realistic derivation is the literally corresponding "Nephi" in KJV Apocrypha 2 Maccabees 1:36;

Because we know that angelic delivery of ancient texts to a farm boy isnt realistic at all. Heaven forbid, we actually dignify the idea that Joseph was a Prophet with an actual antiquity on his hands.

More realistic?

So Joseph stole nephi, a fuel for starting fires which appears only one time in the Apocrypha, while ignoring Judith, Baruch, Sirach, Judith, Macabee, Ptolomy, Tobias,Abubus,Ashmodia, Tobit as source name for the BoM?

this derivation is supported by Smith's apparent use of the Apocrypha elsewhere, in composing the book of 1 Nephi, (especially Judith, for the slaying of Laban

actually it was taken from the OJ SImpson trail

and Tobit, for elements of the early history of Lehi's family).

So does the journey of Lehi's family derive from Tobias's search for a cure to his fathers blindsness(which blindness was caused by bird droppings in the eye) or the Smith family wanderings ala Vogel? Or does the journey of Lehi's fmaily actually depict real history? Actually, I think the BoM was written by Brigham Young post Navu exodus.

Lehi=Joseph,

Nephi=BY,

Laman+ Lemuel and the sons of Ishamel=Emma,Rigdon,Strange and William SMith. Laban=Gov. Bogg(Poerter tried his best).

The plates=kirtland egyptian papers, and seer stones.

Jerusalem=Navu.

The priests of Noah and the stealing of wives=polygamous mormon missionaries, especially Parley P. Pratt. Nephites fighting for revenge(mormon 3:9)=Mountain meadows massacre

Priests of Noah=Q. of 12

Noah=BY

Noah flees the lamanites=BY described himslef as a coward

Gadianton robbers=danites

BUT back to BoM names

Nephi

I think the better game to play is sound alike

It is homophonus(is that a word?) with the Phonecian and aramaic transliteration of the name Nefer.

http://maxwellinstitute.byu.edu/pdf.php?fi...p;type=amJtcw==

is the name gender appropriate?

Yes http://www.touregypt.net/featurestories/nefert.htm

Is it chronologically appropriate?

Yes, roughly

Is it historical(were people actually called this)?

Yes.

The right language?

yes, a semitic transliteration of egyptian

Does the author use the name in a way that show he knew the meaning?

Yes,

http://maxwellinstitute.byu.edu/display.ph...ghts&id=369

http://maxwellinstitute.byu.edu/display.ph...ghts&id=459

I gotta bail........but I emphasize that playing "sound alike" wont do; we need to use at least those four other parameters. Nephi gets all five. Others 3/5, 4/5 etc. The name has to belong to the right time, language, gender and the best possible test: the word should be used in a way which reflects a knowldge of its meaning(not required, but a nail in the coffin none the less).

The same "4+1 requirments game(time,sound,language,gender and sometimes meaninng)" could be used on:

Hermounts

Deseret

Aha

Jershon

Pahoran

Paanchi

Sariah

Alma

Ammoniha

Mathonihah

Mathoni

Hem

Helaman

Himni

Abish

Chemish

Korihor

Zeniphi

Middoni

Muloki

sheum

ziff

With varying results, though I think this would deserve another thread.

BUt back to Nahom

NHM=NHM: coincidence?

Its the right name, at the right place(read OP or anything by Kent Brown, Journey of Faith) at the right time(600bc).

That goes along way from saying, "actually Joseph was a chicano and when he asked his hommies if they wanted to go money digging these said: 'Na..Homes, ju go money digging' ". Viola, NAhom

[Olavarria]

Why would any non-believer say that Book of Mormon got the ancient Arabian geography right? There's no clear evidence that it did.

Oh, The relation between Wadi tayib al ism/river of laman. I dont know, the time it takes to get from the judean area to Nehem, 6 months for a roman legion, no more than 9 months for the lehites. Nehem/Nahom and its eastward turn, Wadi Sayq/Bountiful with its paradaisical climate and ancient ship building tradition, all in arabia felix, which is wat happends when you walk along the red sea.

[Olavarria]

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[Stargazer]

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Pretty lady, Her Amun, and she sings well. Too bad she can't afford some more material for her clothes, and so on. So, what does Ishtar have to do with sponsoring? Is she your sister or something?

[Nevo]

Oh, The relation between Wadi tayib al ism/river of laman. I dont know, the time it takes to get from the judean area to Nehem, 6 months for a roman legion, no more than 9 months for the lehites. Nehem/Nahom and its eastward turn, Wadi Sayq/Bountiful with its paradaisical climate and ancient ship building tradition, all in arabia felix, which is wat happends when you walk along the red sea.

Have you read Jeffrey Chadwick's review of Potter and Wellington's book? He shows that their identification of the Valley of Lemuel with Tayyib al-Ism is problematic to say the least, noting that "the wadi flatly fails to match Nephi's description." For starters, the stream at Tayyib al-Ism has no mouth into the Red Sea (contra 1 Nephi 2:8 ). The proposed Nehhem/Nahom connection is also shaky since it's not at all certain that there even was a place called NHM in 6th-century BCE Arabia, and given the prevalence of -om/-um names in the Book of Mormon Nahom is unlikely to have derived from this root in any case. And Wadi Sayq (Khor Kharfot) is only one of several sites that have been proposed for Bountiful (others include Khor Rori, Salalah, Wadi Hajr, Wadi Masilah, and Dhalqut). Nothing conclusive here either.

[Olavarria]

Have you read Jeffrey Chadwick's review of Potter and Wellington's book? He shows that their identification of the Valley of Lemuel with Tayyib al-Ism is problematic to say the least, noting that "the wadi flatly fails to match Nephi's description." For starters, the stream at Tayyib al-Ism has no mouth into the Red Sea (contra 1 Nephi 2:8 ).

I dont read that anti crud.....o wait he's lds

I skimmed it, but I will check it out. thanks for the heads up.

I may have to say "I stand corrected"; upward and onward.

The proposed Nehhem/Nahom connection is also shaky since it's not at all certain that there even was a place called NHM in 6th-century BCE Arabia,

Here are the facts:

1)Nehem is a region in Yemen

2)The Nehem tribe calls the region home, kinda like Judea to the Jews.

3)Nehem is a stone's throw from the Mahram Bilqis(were some of the alters were found)

http://maxwellinstitute.byu.edu/pdf.php?fi...p;type=amJtcw==

4) Because the votif alters were found near modernday Nehem, dating from 600bc they show that the tribe was around at that time and that they lived near the Mahram Bilqis just as they do today(why else would Biathar commision an alter with his name on it if Nehemites weren't living in the area).

This is very strong evidnece that the nehem region during 600bc, had the name it does today, unless of course Biathar's grand pappy Nawum was the first Nehemite ,or the tribe had a peculiar habit of not naming the land it inhabited after itself, or vis a versa.

Im no arabist, but lets look at arab nomenclature shall we?. Abu Faraj al-Libi means Abu Faraj the Libyan

Abu Musa al Zarqawi means Abu Masab "the guy from Zarqa". Haitham Al Yemeni means Haitham the Yemeni ie he's from Yemen. Abu Ayyub al-Masri means Abu Ayyub the Egyptian. Omar al-Tikriti means Omar from Tikrit.

So then why is Biathar son of Sawdun son of Nawun, Nehemi not Biathar son of Sawdun son of Nawun "the guy from Nehem"? Why would he be the Nehemi if Nehem didnt exist as a locale?

Because the word Nehem is a derivative of the south arabian word for "cutting stone", it would make sense that, given the stone quarys that are found in the area, that the tribe is named after the locale. The other option is that the tribe was already called "stone cutters" and that they migrated, then settled in the area, because they found a place with alot of stone.

and given the prevalence of -om/-um names in the Book of Mormon Nahom is unlikely to have derived from this root in any case.

Wich root? NHM=NHM?

Take your theory up with all those semites that say Musa is Moshe(Moses). In semetic languages its the vowels that matter.

Again, we come full circle. I suppose the roots for grapple, apple, sample, able and sable are

grap-, ap-, sam-, a- and sa- plus the suffix -ble/ple.

And Wadi Sayq (Khor Kharfot) is only one of several sites that have been proposed for Bountiful (others include Khor Rori, Salalah, Wadi Hajr, Wadi Masilah, and Dhalqut). Nothing conclusive here either.

I think it should be remembered that 3 of those 6 are a stone's throw from each other. They all lie in that sliver of brown upside down bannana on the first section bitten out of the peninsula at the lower left...damn its hard to describe. I suspect you know what Im talking about. At any rate, its nearly due east of Nahom, as Nephi said.

not all proposals are created equally, and there is plent of good reason for Wadi Sayq to be considered #1, not the least of which being that people were building ships out there by at least 500bc, but that it also fits Nephi's description like none other.

http://maxwellinstitute.byu.edu/pdf.php?fi...p;type=cmV2aWV3

http://maxwellinstitute.byu.edu/display.ph...jbms&id=165

[Olavarria]

Pretty lady, Her Amun, and she sings well. Too bad she can't afford some more material for her clothes, and so on. So, what does Ishtar have to do with sponsoring? Is she your sister or something?

She is my wife........in my dreams.

No, "sponsership" is just a fancy way of bumping.

I really like her music though. She usto be in a group called Alabina, which fused falmenco and egyptian music, singing songs in both spanish and arabic.

[Olavarria]

Nevo

I need to take a break from the MADB. Thank you for the spirited and well informed debate. To think, MADB actually being used for a discussion on apologetics, wow!

Ill definatly reconsider Wadi Tayib al ism. I will read your next post but not respond, hence you get the last word in. Thanks.

[Olavarria]

bump

[Olavarria]

last bump

[charity]

Hey, I stopped watching when you said you were going away for a while. You had the most worthwhile stuff to say on the topic. Or was that an empty threat?

I keep hearing on another board, that no non-LDS think the Nehem is what we say it is. Is there even any non-LDS looking at this site?