A Question About Bagley's Claim.

[Bsix]

Please don't take this thread off topic. I hope this thread...it may be a short one...is intended to be the most narrow and focused in the history of Mormon discussion boards.

This is not a thread about any other aspect of the Mountain Meadows Massacre...but this:

If Brigham Young ordered the Mountain Meadows Massacre as Bagley claimed in the PBS documentary...what is the explaination for the story that Brigham Young desperately sent messangers down south to prevent the Saints from doing any harm to the wagon trains?

That's it. That is the simple topic of this thread.

Regards,

Six

[Scottie]

Please don't take this thread off topic. I hope this thread...it may be a short one...is intended to be the most narrow and focused in the history of Mormon discussion boards.

This is not a thread about any other aspect of the Mountain Meadows Massacre...but this:

If Brigham Young ordered the Mountain Meadows Massacre as Bagley claimed in the PBS documentary...what is the explaination for the story that Brigham Young desperately sent messangers down south to prevent the Saints from doing any harm to the wagon trains?

That's it. That is the simple topic of this thread.

Regards,

Six

You say "story". Is it fact, or is it a story? Do you have a reference?

[freakin a man]

You say "story". Is it fact, or is it a story? Do you have a reference?

It is a fact that Brigham Young ordered it? That is the issue. Whether its a fact or not needs to be based on evidence.

[DonBradley]

If Brigham Young ordered the Mountain Meadows Massacre as Bagley claimed in the PBS documentary...what is the explaination for the story that Brigham Young desperately sent messangers down south to prevent the Saints from doing any harm to the wagon trains?

OK. I think I can reconcile BY sending this messenger, Haslam, and BY ordering the massacre. BY actually gave Haslam orders to carry out the massacre. Haslam then single-handedly carried out the entire massacre, and just made up the story that he didn't get there till after it happened in order to get himself and BY off the hook.

Thoughts?

Don

[ed2276]

Please don't take this thread off topic. I hope this thread...it may be a short one...is intended to be the most narrow and focused in the history of Mormon discussion boards.

This is not a thread about any other aspect of the Mountain Meadows Massacre...but this:

If Brigham Young ordered the Mountain Meadows Massacre as Bagley claimed in the PBS documentary...what is the explaination for the story that Brigham Young desperately sent messangers down south to prevent the Saints from doing any harm to the wagon trains?

That's it. That is the simple topic of this thread.

Regards,

Six

Well , first of all I don't believe BY ordered the MMM.

That having been said , his sending messengers down south to prevent the Saints from doing any harm to the wagon trains could have been a cover story. A kind of "See here , BY couldn't have ordered the MMM because he was protecting wagon train travel through the south passages. If he really wanted to do in the folks at MM he would have also gone after the other wagon trains. Since he didn't send the Saints after the southern wagon trains , BY certainly wouldn't have ordered an attack on the MM party."

[Smith]

Haslam then single-handedly carried out the entire massacre,

You're pulling our legs, right?

[caudicus]

Plausible deniability?

I thought he just knew about it and did not oppose it, rather than ordered it. I guess I need to read up.

[DonBradley]

Or...Take 2:

Brigham Young actually rode down to Mountain Meadows and singlehandedly overpowered the Fancher train. (Hey, they didn't call him the Lion of the Lord for nothin'.) The Haslam story was concocted to get Brigham off the hook, and to explain the mad horse rider seen at the head of a cloud of dust. Later, when the Feds got on the scent, Brigham's adopted son became the scapegoat, since the sins of the fathers are visited on the heads of the (adopted) children.

Orrr...

The Haslam story was concocted to hide Brigham Young's complicity.

or

The Haslam story really happened as described, because Brigham Young had changed his mind.

or

The story was concocted to help shield Brigham Young from blame, even though he really wasn't to blame.

or

The Haslam story really happened as described, and Brigham Young was not involved.

I'm going to guess that about covers the possibilities. My guess is that the truth is one of the latter two options; but, admittedly, the MMM is not one of my major areas of interest or study.

Don

You're pulling our legs, right?

All of them, singlehandedly.

[Theophilus07]

Please don't take this thread off topic. I hope this thread...it may be a short one...is intended to be the most narrow and focused in the history of Mormon discussion boards.

This is not a thread about any other aspect of the Mountain Meadows Massacre...but this:

If Brigham Young ordered the Mountain Meadows Massacre as Bagley claimed in the PBS documentary...what is the explaination for the story that Brigham Young desperately sent messangers down south to prevent the Saints from doing any harm to the wagon trains?

That's it. That is the simple topic of this thread.

Regards,

Six

Brigham Young sent no messengers anywhere. Not one messenger. That's a Mormon Myth.

The MMM began on Monday, Sept 7, 1857 when the Iron County Brigade of the Nauvoo Legion in Cedar City, Utah, along with some Piute Indians, attacked the Francher wagon train. But the Francher party fought back successfully and the Indians lost heart and most of them left, leaving the Saints to disguise themselves as Indians to continue the attack. Even many of the Cedar City militia members lost heart and the Cedar City High Council decided to send a courier to Brigham Young for instructions. James Holt Haslam volunteered to ride. It took him until Thursday, Sept 10, to reach Salt Lake City. By that time, the attack had been going on for four days. Brigham Young spoke with Haslam and gave him a message to take back to tell the Nauvoo Legion not to attack the wagon train. However, Brigham Young knew from Haslam that the attack had already started the previous Monday. Haslam rode back as hard as he could. Thursday, as Haslam was speaking to Brigham Young in Salt Lake City, the Francher party tried sending out messengers to get help, but the Legion marksmen shot them dead. The rest of the Francher party was killed on Friday, Sept 11, five days after the massacre began, when they were lured into surrender, putting their weapons down, and then shot to death by the Nauvoo Legionaires. Haslam didn't arrive back in Cedar City until after it was over.

Theophilus07

[freakin a man]

If Brigham did order it, my question would be for what purpose? What was to be gained by it? I don't understand the motive Brigham Young would have had to feel the need for it.

The MMM issue in my mind is simply a smokescreen. If the LDS Church is true than it was true before the MMM occurred and the event itself does not change it being true. If its false, it was false before the MMM occurred and there is no reason to appeal to the MMM since it was false long before it occurred. I see it used just to raise emotions that Mormons where a bunch of murders and baby killers.

[Theophilus07]

If Brigham did order it, my question would be for what purpose?

To send a message to the U.S. president and Johnston's army approaching Utah (to depose Brigham Young) that Brigham Young could destroy anyone who came into the territory and thus stop the army. Brigham Young had all kinds of reasons for destroying the Francher party and much to gain.

Theophilus07

[Zakuska]

To send a message to the U.S. president and Johnston's army approaching Utah (to depose Brigham Young) that Brigham Young could destroy anyone who came into the territory and thus stop the army. Brigham Young had all kinds of reasons for destroying the Francher party and much to gain.

Theophilus07

Sounds like Moses' justification for stealing Phaoraohs Gold.

[Ron Beron]

Brigham Young sent no messengers anywhere. Not one messenger. That's a Mormon Myth.

Theophilus07

Nonsense! In the light of evidence to the contrary (a Sept. 10, 1957 letter from BY to Isaac Haight) you would have to present evidence showing 1. this letter was a forgery and 2. that BY gave a direct order for the murders. Can you do so?

The letter to wit

"President's Office,

G. S. L. City, Sept. 10th, 1857.

Elder Isaac C. Haight,

Dear Brother: Your note of the 7th inst. is to hand. Captain Van Vliet, acting commissary is here, having come in advance of the army to procure necessaries for them. We do not expect that any part of the army will be able to reach here this fall. There are only about 850 men coming, they are now at or near Laramie. A few of the freight trains are this side of that place, the advance of which are now on Green river. They will not be able to come much, if any farther, on account of their poor stock. They cannot get here this season without we help them. So you see that the Lord has answered our prayers and again averted the blow designed for our heads.

In regard to emigration trains passing through our settlements we must not interfere with them until they are first notified to keep away. You must not meddle with them. The Indians we expect will do as they please, but you should try and preserve good feelings with them. There are no other trains going south that I know of if those who are there will leave let them go in peace. While we should be on the alert, on hand and always ready we should always possess ourselves in patience, preserving ourselves and property, ever remembering that God rules. He has overruled for our deliverance this once again, and he will always do so if we live our religion, be united in our faith and good works. All is well with us. May the Lord bless you and all saints forever.

I remain as ever your brother in the Gospel of Christ

-BRIGHAM YOUNG."

[freakin a man]

To send a message to the U.S. president and Johnston's army approaching Utah (to depose Brigham Young) that Brigham Young could destroy anyone who came into the territory and thus stop the army. Brigham Young had all kinds of reasons for destroying the Francher party and much to gain.

Theophilus07

Oh so this was to frighten everyone not to mess with the Mormons? That is sort of an insane idea. I don't know how killing a wagon train that included women and children would be particularily effective at putting the scare in the US Army. In fact, one would think that it would make it worse. It would give reason to the US president to do something.

Lets look at a modern example. Did the terrorist actions on 911 intimidate the President and the military that they should leave the muslims in the middle east alone or did it make Americans angry and stir up the hornets nest? Or when Hezbollah captured those Israeli soldiers, was it to intimidate Israel? Did the Israelis think "Oh well, we better not mess with them." Or did Israel go after them?

It seems to me that such actions don't usually intimidate the opponent but make the opposition very angry and gives them all the excuse in the world to respond.

I see nothing to gain with destroying the Francher party. Especially the risks that would be involved with bad publicity and a reason to send the US Army to Utah. Why give ones opponents a free and open excuse?

I guess if one comes into the issue that Brigham Young was insane and therefore that explains his actions, then I guess one could say that he might have though in his mind he had something to gain. I however come to the table that he was reasonable and would have thought these things out. I just don't see a rational motivation Brigham would have thought of that would make things better. I see little to be gained from such an action.

[Nevo]

If Brigham Young ordered the Mountain Meadows Massacre as Bagley claimed in the PBS documentary...what is the explaination for the story that Brigham Young desperately sent messangers down south to prevent the Saints from doing any harm to the wagon trains?

Here is what Bagley says in Blood of the Prophets: Brigham Young and the Massacre at Mountain Meadows:

For the prophet's defenders, this letter [to Isaac Haight] is proof he did not order the massacre. Juanita Brooks concluded it cleared him of direct responsibility, yet she found the letter characteristic of Brigham Young's style. He often began a critical communication with generalities and inserted 'the real message in a single terse sentence or two in the very heart of his letter.' In this case the operative message was that the Indians would 'do as they please.' The order not to meddle with the emigrants was subordinate to the main message: let nothing interfere with the Mormon military alliance with the tribes. Brooks thought this strangely conditional letter suggested that Young might not condemn an Indian massacre.

The letter begs several questions: Why did Superintendent of Indian Affairs Brigham Young have to send orders to the south not to 'interfere' with the emigrants? Why did he later deny knowing anything about the massacre until weeks after it happened? As David White concluded, Young's shrewd reply seems calculated to correct a policy gone wrong if it arrived in time and to cover his tracks if received too late. Whatever the letter's intent, it carried a hidden but clear message for Isaac Haight: make sure the Mormons could blame whatever happened on the Paiutes. (p. 136)

[Anijen]

Please don't take this thread off topic. I hope this thread...it may be a short one...is intended to be the most narrow and focused in the history of Mormon discussion boards.

This is not a thread about any other aspect of the Mountain Meadows Massacre...but this:

If Brigham Young ordered the Mountain Meadows Massacre as Bagley claimed in the PBS documentary...what is the explaination for the story that Brigham Young desperately sent messangers down south to prevent the Saints from doing any harm to the wagon trains?

That's it. That is the simple topic of this thread.

Regards,

Six

I have studied the MMM ad nauseum. It is my conclusion that BY did not order the MMM. And there is no evidence that he did. There is an excellent talk on this subject, I will leave the link at the bottom. Having said that it is my opinion that it was ordered by LDS men at a stake level. There is no justification for murder this is IMO probably the darkest area our church has.

http://www.fairlds.org/FAIR_Conferences/20...s_Massacre.html

[Ron Beron]

To send a message to the U.S. president and Johnston's army approaching Utah (to depose Brigham Young) that Brigham Young could destroy anyone who came into the territory and thus stop the army. Brigham Young had all kinds of reasons for destroying the Francher party and much to gain.

Theophilus07

To depose him or dispose of him? I doubt they were on their way to get his version of an event that had yet occurred. Given BY's later sadness and dejection over the MMM it is hardly conceivable that he agreed with this. A little about any "cover-ups". When BY was told in total what had occurred at MM he told Jacob Hamblin, "As soon as we can get a court of justice we will ferret this thing out, but till then, don't say anything about it." Hardly the words of a conspirator. He later ordered George A. Smith and Amasa Lyman to go south to check and separate the rumors from the facts. After BY found out the event was not precipitated by Indians he insisted that the federal government initiate a complete investigation, but was told by then Governor Cummings that President Buchanan had issued a proclamation of amnesty to the Mormons and didn't wish to investigate the crime anymore. When pressed by BY the governor said that he concurred with the president. George A. Smith later stated that, "If the business had not been taken out of our hands by a change of offices in the territory, the MM affair is one of the first things we should have attended to when a United States court sat in southern Utah." Another indication of a lack of complacency on the part of President Young.

[freakin a man]

"For the prophet's defenders, this letter [to Isaac Haight] is proof he did not order the massacre. Juanita Brooks concluded it cleared him of direct responsibility, yet she found the letter characteristic of Brigham Young's style. He often began a critical communication with generalities and inserted 'the real message in a single terse sentence or two in the very heart of his letter.' In this case the operative message was that the Indians would 'do as they please.' The order not to meddle with the emigrants was subordinate to the main message: let nothing interfere with the Mormon military alliance with the tribes. Brooks thought this strangely conditional letter suggested that Young might not condemn an Indian massacre."

I don't know why this would be a problem. It would just be recognizing a fact that the Mormons did not have direct control over what the Indians would or would not do. So when it says "do as they please", it is just saying that fact. Sort of like saying "The indians will do what they will do. We have no control of them but we can control our actions so leave the group alone."

[Bsix]

I've never really studied the matter of the rider that is claimed that Brigham Young sent to stop actions against the Francerh party. That's why I started this thread...to get a sense of whence the story came.

I found this in a FARMs article on the Bagley book:

Isaac Haight, a stake president in Cedar City, dispatched James Haslam to Brigham Young for instructions about the Fancher train. It is not contested that Brigham Young received Haight's message and sent Haslam back to tell Haight not to meddle with the Fancher train and to "spare no horseflesh" about it. As Haslam describes it, when he arrived in Salt Lake City, he found President Young in council with several others. Young read the message from Haight and told Haslam to rest and return to Brigham Young's office at 1:00 p.m. "He asked if I could stand the trip back; he said the Indians must be kept from the emigrants at all cost, if it took all of Iron County to protect them." When Haslam returned to Young's office at the appointed time, President Young "told me to start and not to spare horseflesh, but to go down there just as quick as possible." When Haight received the message, Haight said: "Too late, too late." Haight "cried like a child."24 Haslam was never impeached as to his story, and it remained consistent throughout his lifetime.

Six: That fits with story I have heard. Is there any reason to presume this story is merely a "Mormon Myth?" I mean more than the speculation presented in this thread. I have not found any references that deny that Haaslam was sent back to Cedar City as fast as he could ride. I have also found no evidence that the message to let the Francher party pass seems to be accepted as fact.

In fact, it seems that Bagley seems to accept that account in his book (if the commentaries I read are correct.) Bagley seems to believe that the order was merely an attempt to revoke a previous oder to kill the Francher party.

I have to say right now that I am inclined to believe that Brigham Young did attempt to stop the events unfolding.

I wonder why the Brigham Young communique was left out of the PBS documentary?

Regards,

Six

[Theophilus07]

Nonsense! In the light of evidence to the contrary (a Sept. 10, 1957 letter from BY to Isaac Haight) you would have to present evidence showing 1. this letter was a forgery and 2. that BY gave a direct order for the murders. Can you do so?

The letter to wit

Oh, c'mon. Even LDS historians agree that Haslam wasn't sent by Brigham Young. Haslam lived in Cedar City and was sent by the High Council there to ride to Brigham Young for instructions. Well, actually, Isaac Haight in Cedar City asked for volunteers and Haslam volunteered. BRigham Young had nothing to do with sending Haslam anywhere. All Young did was give him the letter.

By the way, read the letter and see if you think this reads like an emergency order.

Theophilus07

[Theophilus07]

To depose him or dispose of him? I doubt they were on their way to get his version of an event that had yet occurred.

Johnston's army wasn't on the way to avenge the MMM. They had no idea it was about to happen. The army was sent to depose Brigham Young for having ridden the U.S. presidential territorial appointees ouf the territory and to re-establish Federal control over the territory.

Theophilus07

[Theophilus07]

Six: That fits with story I have heard. Is there any reason to presume this story is merely a "Mormon Myth?"

The Mormon Myth is that Brigham Young dispatched several messengers to ride to Cedar City to stop the massacre. The truth is that Haslam, who lived in Cedar City, volunteered to ride to SLC to ask Brigham Young for instructions. Haslam wasn't sent by Brigham Young, Haslam was sent by the Cedar City High Council to Brigham Young.

Theophilus07

[Theophilus07]

Oh so this was to frighten everyone not to mess with the Mormons? That is sort of an insane idea.

Not to people who know that Brigham Young considered the approach of the army to be a war situation, which it was. You should read Young's blood atonement / war speeches from that time period.

The MMM didn't happen in a vacuum. Ever heard of the "Utah Reformation"? Well, it was in full swing at the time and on top of the "Utah Reformation" Johnston's Army was approaching Utah to remove Brigham Young as territorial governor. Some of the most blood-thirsty speeches you'll ever read were made in the Tabernacle and, indeed, all over the Utah Territory.

You can dismiss this information, but shortly, the LDS Church's book about the MMM is going to be published and you're going to read much the same information from the Church's own historians.

Theophilus07

[cdowis]

An observation:

At the point Bagley began his discussion of BY, his mouth became very dry and there was a tremor in his voice.

To give Bagley some credit, he is not a very good liar. At least he is not deceiving himself -- he actually knows that he is lying.

[Bsix]

Oh, c'mon. Even LDS historians agree that Haslam wasn't sent by Brigham Young. Haslam lived in Cedar City and was sent by the High Council there to ride to Brigham Young for instructions. Well, actually, Isaac Haight in Cedar City asked for volunteers and Haslam volunteered. BRigham Young had nothing to do with sending Haslam anywhere. All Young did was give him the letter.

Six: This is a message board. You really owe me nothing in regards to fact. However, you seem at this point to be asking me (us) to believe that there was no rider/message sent simply because you say so.

From what little reading I've done, it seems that even the most skeptical of historians (Bagley included?) seem to accept that Haslaam did ride...and that he did carry a message to leave the Francher party.

That being the case, what evidence or explaination do folks like Theophilus07 bring to bear to counter to support an opposite view?

By the way, read the letter and see if you think this reads like an emergency order.

Six: Interesting...where can I find a copy of this supposedly non-existent letter. I thought you were under the impression it did not exist.

If the non-existent letter really exists...what is the explanation?

Regards,

Six