Can An Illegal Alien In Utah Get A Temple Recommend?

[mbh26]

I already did. If you can't feed and educate a child adequately without outside help, you shouldn't be having them. I don't think you'd find a church leader to disagree with that, especially if they had to foot the bill in fast offerings sometimes. At least concede me that point. Even most illegals I've talked with even agree that overpopulation in Mexico and by poor latinos here needs to stop. I feel that way about all races by the way. I don't think people have a right to have kids and then expect other people to pay for them.

By the way, God bless you for your service as a school teacher. Been there done that, and I know how bad it can suck. It still amazes me that they find people willing to do that job. I'd prefer to learn a trade. Yes, mexican construction worker bosses were probably more reasonable than those kids, parents, and administrators.

[Alan]

We have so called illegal immigrants here in the UK too. I would not dream of denying any of them a temple recommend. Such a concept is utterly absurd. How can one justify denying a fellow brother or sister the blesings of the gospel because of some man-made law?

God is no respector of persons and no respector of nations either. In the gospel there are no countries and no nationalities. We are all citizens in the Kingdom of God and that is all that is required.

Alan

[David Bokovoy]

Does that [apostate affiliates] include the homosexual and abortion defending democrats??

No. But it certainly includes warmongering, gun-touting Republicans who led a vicious campaign against the LDS Church that imprisoned our Priesthood leaders and who currently abuse the poor and downtrodden.

Good thing we donâ??t talk politics on this board. Iâ??d loose all my friends!

[Confidential Informant]

CI let me ask you something: if this is a civil matter why is immigration, customs and enforement (ICE) raiding factories.

Are you implying that such "raids" could only be carried out under the authority of a criminal warrant? You are wrong. Such raids are carried out on the authority of "Civil warrants" also known as "Blackie's warrants." Such a warrant can be obtained from a U.s. magistrate on a showing of less-that-probable cause (on other words, ICE is not required to have probable cause to get the warrant they need to conduct a raid).

The raids are conducted pursuant to ICE's civil regulatory power.

How about a U.S. citizen and LDS member who hires illegal aliens for his factory; should he get a temple recommend; HE makes more money if he doesn't have to pay workers comp, taxes or comply with the minimum wage law. I would love to see the books of that company.

No, he should not because he is in violation of established criminal laws, most of which are felonies in nature. There is no moral equivalency between the two.

Suppose that lady mentioned above is a church member and needs to go to the bishop to help with paying her bills.

I'm sorry, I must have missed the part of the "lady" you are referring to. Any member of the church who pays their tithes is entitled to assistance when and were needed without regard to immigration status.

Suppose a local LDS businessman operates and alphalt paving company with illegals, should he pay a fine and should he go to jail. The way I understand the issue is he can be arrested and fined.

You understand incorrectly. I know a man who is currently serving a 6 month sentence for doing something similar to what you suggest above. He was tried in a federal criminal court in Montana.

ICE is law enforcement agency

No, it is not. It is a civil regulatory agency with a few quasi-police powers.

.People say that the illegals take the jobs people don't want but here in southern california the people that hire illegals are the ones that run the current construction business.

This sentence made perfect sense to you when you wrote it, didn't it.

Black unemployment is on the rise and local leaders says it's not because of immigration but illegal immigration. If you don't get the dry wall job or brick work because someone will do the work for the eighty percent of the pay and not force the employer to comply with local safety and employment laws.

A contractor's compliance with "local safety and employment laws" is not dictated by who he hires. It's dictated by the various local inspectors who are responsbile for tracking such things. Hiring illegals doesn't get you off the hook for complying with safety codes, etc. This argument has no merit.

They can harrass, kick, spit at, make the person work twelve hours for thiry five dollars and not worry about anything, no laws about breaks, safety regulations nothing.

This is true to a certain extent, but not the extent that you believe. Most state governments have set up offices that deal with issues such as this. If an immigrant is ripped off by an employer the State can and will step in and prosecute andt he immigrants can file the claims w/ the state without fear of retribution.

can you also give me the case that the supreme court ruled on that said this a civil matter and what was the issue before the court.

That conclusion has been reached and reiterated several times. I do not currently have the cite in front of me. Do you think that I am incorrect. If I am, I hope you'll enlighten me and I can then enlighten both the local immigration judge and DHS counsel as they both persist in the same delsuion.

C.I.

[T-Bone]

Just wondering? I heard a rumor that you couldn't get a temple recommend if you are cheating on your taxes...what about this issue?

I think that goes under being "honest in all your dealings."

That being said, technically you can get a recommend if you lie. Not recommending that, just pointing out the loophole. You just have to be OK with possibly mocking God. And who wants to be in that position?

T-Bone

[karl61]

Are you implying that such "raids" could only be carried out under the authority of a criminal warrant? You are wrong. Such raids are carried out on the authority of "Civil warrants" also known as "Blackie's warrants." Such a warrant can be obtained from a U.s. magistrate on a showing of less-that-probable cause (on other words, ICE is not required to have probable cause to get the warrant they need to conduct a raid).

The raids are conducted pursuant to ICE's civil regulatory power.

No, he should not because he is in violation of established criminal laws, most of which are felonies in nature. There is no moral equivalency between the two.

I'm sorry, I must have missed the part of the "lady" you are referring to. Any member of the church who pays their tithes is entitled to assistance when and were needed without regard to immigration status.

You understand incorrectly. I know a man who is currently serving a 6 month sentence for doing something similar to what you suggest above. He was tried in a federal criminal court in Montana.

No, it is not. It is a civil regulatory agency with a few quasi-police powers.

This sentence made perfect sense to you when you wrote it, didn't it.

A contractor's compliance with "local safety and employment laws" is not dictated by who he hires. It's dictated by the various local inspectors who are responsbile for tracking such things. Hiring illegals doesn't get you off the hook for complying with safety codes, etc. This argument has no merit.

This is true to a certain extent, but not the extent that you believe. Most state governments have set up offices that deal with issues such as this. If an immigrant is ripped off by an employer the State can and will step in and prosecute andt he immigrants can file the claims w/ the state without fear of retribution.

That conclusion has been reached and reiterated several times. I do not currently have the cite in front of me. Do you think that I am incorrect. If I am, I hope you'll enlighten me and I can then enlighten both the local immigration judge and DHS counsel as they both persist in the same delsuion.

C.I.

do you really believe what your wrote here. You can't cite the case - isn't that sort of like a criminal defense lawyer not being able to remember miranda. I have my westlaw password for a few weeks more so anytime you want to cite that case, that's cool.

[T-Bone]

Just to add a bit of experience to the illegal immigration and employment conditions discussion, I did a summer internship for a non-profit agency that provided pro bono legal representation for migrant workers. It was not my job to ask if anybody was illegal. What I do know is that even if a worker is illegal, the employer still needs to pay for hours worked.

The saddest thing was the a major part of the exploitation of migrant workers was actually done by bilingual Latinos working between the employer and the workers. They would skim off wages and take advantage of the illiterate workers, some of whom could not even do basic math or write their own name.

The problems we ran into were many. But they usually came in groups.

1. Factory/farm/restaurant hires illegal workers.

2. Workers have no worker's comp or insurance.

3. Worker gets injured.

4. Worker gets terminated and last paycheck is not paid. Sometimes, last 2 or 3.

5. If worker is living in company housing, worker gets evicted.

There were also cases where a worker would get deported. The employer kept all the wages in that case. It was really horrendous to see the things that migrant workers were put through. Some employers tried to be good to the workers, but other treated them as if they were expendable, and had no value as human beings. In fact, they preferred that the children not be allowed to go to school so they could have a new generation of illiterate people to use for labor.

The majority of the workers I met were hard-working and gracious people. They were very poor, but when we went on outreach, they would always offer us food.

It was an amazing summer and I won't forget it for a long time.

I'm preparing for finals right now, so I don't have the time to look up cases or statutes. I don't plan on being an employment lawyer anyway, and it's not on the bar, so much of it has faded over the last 2 years.

T-Bone

[karl61]

just some more information on the subject but it did say ICE is using civil warrants but sometimes they use criminal warrants.

http://lists.ysu.edu/pipermail/working-cla...ber/001762.html

[daz2]

Karl61,

Take a look at page 4 and footnote 19, for the proposition that illegal presense in the US is not itself a crime. http://www.ilw.com/immigdaily/news/2006,1018-crs.pdf

[karl61]

Just to add a bit of experience to the illegal immigration and employment conditions discussion, I did a summer internship for a non-profit agency that provided pro bono legal representation for migrant workers. It was not my job to ask if anybody was illegal. What I do know is that even if a worker is illegal, the employer still needs to pay for hours worked.

The saddest thing was the a major part of the exploitation of migrant workers was actually done by bilingual Latinos working between the employer and the workers. They would skim off wages and take advantage of the illiterate workers, some of whom could not even do basic math or write their own name.

The problems we ran into were many. But they usually came in groups.

1. Factory/farm/restaurant hires illegal workers.

2. Workers have no worker's comp or insurance.

3. Worker gets injured.

4. Worker gets terminated and last paycheck is not paid. Sometimes, last 2 or 3.

5. If worker is living in company housing, worker gets evicted.

There were also cases where a worker would get deported. The employer kept all the wages in that case. It was really horrendous to see the things that migrant workers were put through. Some employers tried to be good to the workers, but other treated them as if they were expendable, and had no value as human beings. In fact, they preferred that the children not be allowed to go to school so they could have a new generation of illiterate people to use for labor.

The majority of the workers I met were hard-working and gracious people. They were very poor, but when we went on outreach, they would always offer us food.

It was an amazing summer and I won't forget it for a long time.

I'm preparing for finals right now, so I don't have the time to look up cases or statutes. I don't plan on being an employment lawyer anyway, and it's not on the bar, so much of it has faded over the last 2 years.

T-Bone

THANK YOU FOR YOUR SERVICE AND INFORMATION THE BEST POST YET!

[karl61]

Karl61,

Take a look at page 4 and footnote 19, for the proposition that illegal presense in the US is not itself a crime. http://www.ilw.com/immigdaily/news/2006,1018-crs.pdf

]

Thank you

[T-Bone]

THANK YOU FOR YOUR SERVICE AND INFORMATION THE BEST POST YET!

The pleasure is all mine. I am happy to be able to give something back. And if there was a decent living in it, I'd probably still be doing it.

T-Bone

[karl61]

The pleasure is all mine. I am happy to be able to give something back. And if there was a decent living in it, I'd probably still be doing it.

T-Bone

I am starting a paralegal program at the local community college. I already have a degree so I only need six classes for the certificate. Our teacher said she went to a job seminar where one paralegal said their firm just hired a paralegal at one hundred grand per year. It was in intellectual property. I don't really know what that entails but if a paralegal is starting at that money - guess what lawyers or firms are charging. I'll likely end up at legal aid in Downtown L.A.

[karl61]

just additonal information.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070430/ap_on_...ugs_vs_migrants

[T-Bone]

I am starting a paralegal program at the local community college. I already have a degree so I only need six classes for the certificate. Our teacher said she went to a job seminar where one paralegal said their firm just hired a paralegal at one hundred grand per year. It was in intellectual property. I don't really know what that entails but if a paralegal is starting at that money - guess what lawyers or firms are charging. I'll likely end up at legal aid in Downtown L.A.

6 figures for a paralegal? Where do I sign up? Some of the starting salaries for lawyers in the midwest are not that good. But we do have a reasonable cost of living.

T

[karl61]

6 figures for a paralegal? Where do I sign up? Some of the starting salaries for lawyers in the midwest are not that good. But we do have a reasonable cost of living.

T

that was a seminar in san diego - the paralegal was hired in san diego. also, houses are likely ten times what they are in the midwest - I am serious. I also asked my civil procedures teacher today and he said intellectual property is more like copy rights, patents, music industry ect....seems real boring.

now back to the subject - I was thinking about what I had learned on this thread about immgration and I guess it is a crime if you are deported and then come back over again. I was wondering if you were a bishop, you knew someone in your ward who had a temple recommend was deported, and then the person comes back two weeks later and tells you he/she was deported but made it back across the border. Isn't that a felony to come back when you are deported....if you knew someone committed a felony - would you take away the recommend.

[mbh26]

We have so called illegal immigrants here in the UK too. I would not dream of denying any of them a temple recommend. Such a concept is utterly absurd. How can one justify denying a fellow brother or sister the blesings of the gospel because of some man-made law?

God is no respector of persons and no respector of nations either. In the gospel there are no countries and no nationalities. We are all citizens in the Kingdom of God and that is all that is required.

Alan

How do you reconcile that with the 12th article of faith? "We believe in being subject to kings presidents, rulers, magistrates, in obeying honoring and sustaining the law."

Does that mean, only laws that you agree with?

Copyrighting is a manmade law. Maybe I've decided that music artists or drug companies already have more than enough money. Taxes are manmade as well. Maybe I don't agree that I should have to pay them.

[No Touch]

How do you reconcile that with the 12th article of faith? "We believe in being subject to kings presidents, rulers, magistrates, in obeying honoring and sustaining the law."

Does that mean, only laws that you agree with?

Copyrighting is a manmade law. Maybe I've decided that music artists or drug companies already have more than enough money. Taxes are manmade as well. Maybe I don't agree that I should have to pay them.

The same way we reconcile that the Church continued to practice polygamy after the US government criminalized it. Temple recommend weren't denied to members practicing Plural Marriage after the passages of the Edmunds and then the Endmunds-Tucker Acts. Even after both Manifestos, men who continued to cohabitate with their plural wives (still completely illegal) so long as they didn't attempt to take new ones.

[karl61]

The same way we reconcile that the Church continued to practice polygamy after the US government criminalized it. Temple recommend weren't denied to members practicing Plural Marriage after the passages of the Edmunds and then the Endmunds-Tucker Acts. Even after both Manifestos, men who continued to cohabitate with their plural wives (still completely illegal) so long as they didn't attempt to take new ones.

if it is a crime to reenter if you have been deported I think that the church may need to ask a few more questions....because there is so much crime associated with illegal aliens, documents provided by organized crime, rapes, murders, robbery's against and by illegal aliens the church needs to take a stand.

http://www.usdoj.gov/usao/ks/press/Feb07/02_07_2007.html

from the web:

January 21, 2004 ILLEGAL ALIEN SENTENCED TO 57 MONTHS IN FEDERAL PRISON FOR ILLEGALLY REENTERING THE UNITED STATES ROCKFORD -- PATRICK J. FITZGERALD, United States Attorney for the Northern District of Illinois, and MATTHEW T. ALBENCE, Interim Associate Special Agent-In-Charge of the Chicago Office of the Bureau of Immigration and Customs Enforcement - Department of Homeland Security, today made the following announcement: United States District Judge Philip G. Reinhard yesterday (January 20, 2004) sentenced JOSE RAFAEL POSADAS-IBARRA, 33 (DOB: 3/21/70), 2519 Custer Ave, Rockford, Illinois, to 57 months in prison for illegally reentering the United States following his 1999 deportation for a state drug conviction. On November 4, 2003, Posadas-Ibarra pleaded guilty and admitted that he had previously been deported from the United States to Mexico on November 23, 1999, subsequent to a conviction in Winnebago County, Illinois for possession of cocaine with intent to deliver. The defendant further admitted in his plea agreement that after he had been deported, he illegally reentered the United States. Posadas-Ibarro was found illegally present in the United States in Rockford, Illinois, and was arrested on September 26, 2003. In addition to the 57 month prison sentence, the court ordered Posadas-Ibarra to surrender to immigration authorities following his release from prison, as well as a period of supervised release of two years following his release from prison. The case was investigated by Chicago office of the Bureau of Immigration and Customs Enforcement, a part of the Department of Homeland Security, formerly known as the United States Immigration and Naturalization Service (INS). The case was prosecuted in federal court by Assistant United States Attorney Monica V. Mallory. # # # # #

[firepatch36]

The article Convention ends with Satan and immigrants is about an immigration convention in Utah. People there had this to say:

In a speech at the convention, Larsen told those gathered that illegal immigrants "hate American people" and "are determined to destroy this country, and there is nothing they won't do."

Illegal aliens are in control of the media, and working in tandem with Democrats, are trying to "destroy Christian America" and replace it with "a godless new world order -- and that is not extremism, that is fact," Larsen said.

At the end of his speech, Larsen began to cry, saying illegal immigrants were trying to bring about the destruction of the U.S. "by self invasion."

Republican officials then allowed speakers to defend and refute the resolution. One speaker, who was identified as "Joe," said illegal immigrants were Marxist and under the influence of the devil. Another, who declined to give her name to the Daily Herald, said illegal immigrants should not be allowed because "they are not going to become Republicans and stop flying the flag upside down. ... If they want to be Americans, they should learn to speak English and fly their flag like we do."

(I personally disagree with this, I'm all for more immigration and arguments to the contrary often have false information)

The article then mentioned this:

He [Joel Wright, a member of the Cedar Hills City Council] also said the LDS Church has studied the issue and tried to determine whether illegal aliens could be given temple recommends and allowed to serve missions but "gave up" because the issue was too complex.